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Old 03-13-2010, 08:37 AM   #301
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Here's my two cents.

If the airstream are that weak and can't take a little knocking around. Why the Hell do they cost so much!!!!!!!!!

There is a problem at the factory and like Toyota, Ford Chevy, and GM. they don't want to own up to it........

Yes you don't want to stiff of a bar, but should it really create that much damage. NOPE it shouldn't. Bad craftsmanship, it what it comes down two. OR, if you can't build em right put out a spec sheet with the right weight bars for 1/2 3/4 and one tons with a disclaimer that using heavier bars will brake your $40,000 trailer, because it wasn't built strong enough...
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:52 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
OK, I have read all 297 posts on this thread and I still don't know what to do.

With a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 towing a 1998 34' Airstream Excella 1000 (9800lbs & 1000lb hitch weight), using a ProPride hitch, WHAT IS THE CORRECT BAR WEIGHT AND BAR SETTING, (assuming that the ball and hitch are both trailer frame level)?

Can we get a straight answer please?
If you want a straight answer ask Sean, the maker of the ProPride. I am sure he is going to say 1400#. However I suggest you talk to him directly. He is well aware of these discussions and is very approachable and helpful. I am pretty sure even if you call on a weekend, he will either answer or get back to you soon.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:30 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by osolow View Post
I am a newbie but it seems to me the heavier the T/V is and stiffer the suspension the lighter the torsion bar is needed ? am i right?

thanks for answering the hypothetical to
Yes.

Andy
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:56 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
OK, I have read all 297 posts on this thread and I still don't know what to do...
what 2 do, what 2 do...

start with some eye drops, they gotta be dry from reading the WRONG thread.

and i agree with ken, call the HITCH MAKER.

why would u expect to find YOUR answers in THIS thread...

which is about shell/frame failures in NEWER streams, not about proper rigging of 1 truck to 1 trailer with a pp...

many of the posters IN this thread have never even SEEN the hitch u ask about, much less set one up.

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Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
...towing a 1998 34' Airstream Excella 1000 (9800lbs & 1000lb hitch weight)...
just a guess but these are the "factory" values for gross trailer capacity and tongue weight...?

have u WEIGHED the trailer?

don't rely on 12 year old ESTIMATED weights, measure them now and with full travel trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
...WHAT IS THE CORRECT BAR WEIGHT...
bar rating WILL depend on tongue mass (as measured, NOT estimated)

IF it's under 1000 lbs +/- 50, WITH FULL lp gas bottles and the trailer LOADED for travel...

the 1000 lb bars can work.

IF it's much more than that OR u have no clue to the weight, get the 1400 lb bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
...WHAT IS THE CORRECT... BAR SETTING...?
the "setting" or proper tensioning of the w/d bars...

will depend on ACTUAL weight values for the truck ft/r axles BEFORE and AFTER tensioning the bars...

how MUCH drop is needed on the stinger will depend on truck height and ball height as well...

THIS STUFF is all covered in another thread EXACTLY about that topic.

find it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
...Can we get a straight answer please?
straight enough answer 4 ya?

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Old 03-13-2010, 12:51 PM   #305
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ProPride = pp

2air is playing a little hard to get with the ProPride thread making you search for it. Since he didn't use the word propride in the title of the thread, and you might not know what pp means, here's the link. It is one of the best threads in all of airforums. Read it from top to bottom. Then find Sean's youtube videos (search for propride).

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ide-57179.html
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:10 PM   #306
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Just returned from our trip and had no issues with the shell cracking or anything like that. We travelled from McKinney, TX to Russellville, AR and back and all rode as smooth as it has in the past. We have been using the Curt Trunnion Wd hitch and 1000 lb bars since we brought the trailer home new in October of 06'. As mentioned earlier the tongue weight was 850 + pounds and the tongue height was set so that the trailer rode level. We travelled along I-75/US69 to I-40 (as many may know this is not the smoothest section of rode in the US). We have never had any sway issues or ride issues. We have only had the skin cracking below the front storage compartment. Which I still feel is due to a lack of construction and engineering design.

The front of the trailer was reconstructed by North Dallas RV and they double sheeted the front and added some front ribs on either side of the door and angle plates from the ribs to the floor to reinforce this area. They also rounded the corners of the sheet where the storage door is to help eliminate a focused stress point.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:14 PM   #307
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Krazy' its good to hear has not redeveloped the crack.

But is it the square design?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f456...-as-62183.html
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:19 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secguru View Post
OK, I have read all 297 posts on this thread and I still don't know what to do.

With a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 towing a 1998 34' Airstream Excella 1000 (9800lbs & 1000lb hitch weight), using a ProPride hitch, WHAT IS THE CORRECT BAR WEIGHT AND BAR SETTING, (assuming that the ball and hitch are both trailer frame level)?

Can we get a straight answer please?
Wouldn't it be easier to call airstream in jackson center than read 300 replies?
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:44 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by finalcutjoe View Post
Here are facts on discrediting the over-hitching/over-trucking theory you champion:
Measuring Forces at the Hitch
Finalcutjoe, and 2Air I was hoping “Measuring Forces at the Hitch” would not be referenced again, as I don’t see how one can reach the conclusion that was reached unless one wrote or knew what conclusion they wanted before the experiment began. (pseudo-science)

To be sure, the data was very interesting. The data presented very similar readings of acceleration forces at the hitch using both a soft and a heavy duty suspension, and additionally with and without WD bars. No matter the suspension or whether WD bars were used, the readings were almost the same. The similarity in the data from these different set-ups only brought up more questions for me and I’m surprised they didn’t for the designer of the experiment.

Here are some questions that came to my mind:

Would I get the same acceleration-force reading if the meter were mounted to the saddle of my bicycle or to the front fork? In other words, at a given speed and given bump, would the acceleration forces would be the same no matter what vehicle was being used?

Why doesn’t the acceleration force at the hitch relate to the distance the suspension travels in absorbing the force? Or does it?

Why would the softer of the two suspensions record similar readings to the stiffer suspensions.

Are these forces transferred beyond the hitch? Like transferred to the TV or to the trailer, or both?

If the softer suspension receives the same acceleration forces as the stiffer suspension and provides a less jarring and more supple ride for its passengers, can it then be said the same is true for the trailer tongue and the trailer itself?

If one looked at the hitch as a pivot point for a beam suspended between it and the axles of the trailer, would the beam deflect more with the soft suspension or with the stiff suspension even though they received the same amount of acceleration force?

Is this similar to removing snow stuck to a snow shovel where to remove it, one strikes the frame or handle of the shovel against a rock. It seems to drive the snow off the shovel best when striking a rigid object as opposed to a squishy object because striking a rigid object would cause the greatest deflection. Would I prefer my trailer then to be attached to a rigid or squishy point? That’s enough questions, although I have a few more.

So here is another point about this experiment. No measurement in this “experiment” was taken to see if these forces were, in fact, transmitted anywhere; whether to the front of the TV or to the suspension of the trailer. They seemed somewhat static to me seeing as how only a single point was chosen to be measured.

In conclusion, this experiment presents data that the acceleration force at the hitch is not affected by the type of suspension of the tow vehicle, or whether WD bars are used or not. It does not present any data as to how it would affect the trailer.

Thus, Finalcutjoe’s conclusion “This would lead me to believe the ride quality of the tow vehicle, and hitch bar settings have little impact on forces experienced on the trailer at the tongue.” can be made, but would be more accurate if the word “forces” were replaced with” Acceleration Forces”, because they were the only forces measured.

The statement:Sacrificing safety for a negligible reduction in stresses on the trailer is not justifiable. This opinion is not substantiated or even approached in this experiment. Forces were only measured in one place, on the tongue near the hitch point. No measurements were conducted in the trailer itself. No safety issues were tested either.

At this point, I would assume the trailers suspension is the principle factor in suppressing harmful forces on the trailers frame and components. At least this is presented as an opinion. This is not supported by this experiment.

It's time to file this experiment under the heading, "To be continued" or "Interesting but useless data". The facts from this experiment do not discredit any theory, but the misuse of the facts to promote an opinion does discredit the experimenter.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:31 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
Finalcutjoe, and 2Air I was hoping “Measuring Forces at the Hitch” would not be referenced again, as I don’t see how one can reach the conclusion that was reached unless one wrote or knew what conclusion they wanted before the experiment began. (pseudo-science)
Actually, I was expecting to find increased readings with the 'stiffer' suspension. Read my blog on this, it's less time consuming then perusing the post threads. Measuring Forces at the Hitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
To be sure, the data was very interesting. The data presented very similar readings of acceleration forces at the hitch using both a soft and a heavy duty suspension, and additionally with and without WD bars. No matter the suspension or whether WD bars were used, the readings were almost the same. The similarity in the data from these different set-ups only brought up more questions for me and I’m surprised they didn’t for the designer of the experiment.

Here are some questions that came to my mind:

Would I get the same acceleration-force reading if the meter were mounted to the saddle of my bicycle or to the front fork? In other words, at a given speed and given bump, would the acceleration forces would be the same no matter what vehicle was being used?
Interesting... like the one in the vintage airstream pictures? Or do you mean one of those three-wheeled 'trikes'? Or something with "ROKSHOX"? I'd be securing the accelerometer to the seat cushion right? Or do I secure it to MY ASS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
Why doesn’t the acceleration force at the hitch relate to the distance the suspension travels in absorbing the force? Or does it?

Why would the softer of the two suspensions record similar readings to the stiffer suspensions.

Are these forces transferred beyond the hitch? Like transferred to the TV or to the trailer, or both?
Perhaps another experiment? Titled "Measuring forces elsewhere in the trailer"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
If the softer suspension receives the same acceleration forces as the stiffer suspension and provides a less jarring and more supple ride for its passengers, can it then be said the same is true for the trailer tongue and the trailer itself?

If one looked at the hitch as a pivot point for a beam suspended between it and the axles of the trailer, would the beam deflect more with the soft suspension or with the stiff suspension even though they received the same amount of acceleration force?

Is this similar to removing snow stuck to a snow shovel where to remove it, one strikes the frame or handle of the shovel against a rock. It seems to drive the snow off the shovel best when striking a rigid object as opposed to a squishy object because striking a rigid object would cause the greatest deflection. Would I prefer my trailer then to be attached to a rigid or squishy point? That’s enough questions, although I have a few more.
Did you just make a comparison to a snow shovel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post

So here is another point about this experiment. No measurement in this “experiment” was taken to see if these forces were, in fact, transmitted anywhere; whether to the front of the TV or to the suspension of the trailer. They seemed somewhat static to me seeing as how only a single point was chosen to be measured.

In conclusion, this experiment presents data that the acceleration force at the hitch is not affected by the type of suspension of the tow vehicle, or whether WD bars are used or not. It does not present any data as to how it would affect the trailer.

Thus, Finalcutjoe’s conclusion “This would lead me to believe the ride quality of the tow vehicle, and hitch bar settings have little impact on forces experienced on the trailer at the tongue.” can be made, but would be more accurate if the word “forces” were replaced with” Acceleration Forces”, because they were the only forces measured.
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
The statement:Sacrificing safety for a negligible reduction in stresses on the trailer is not justifiable. This opinion is not substantiated or even approached in this experiment. Forces were only measured in one place, on the tongue near the hitch point. No measurements were conducted in the trailer itself. No safety issues were tested either.

At this point, I would assume the trailers suspension is the principle factor in suppressing harmful forces on the trailers frame and components. At least this is presented as an opinion. This is not supported by this experiment.

It's time to file this experiment under the heading, "To be continued" or "Interesting but useless data". The facts from this experiment do not discredit any theory, but the misuse of the facts to promote an opinion does discredit the experimenter.
Andy? Are you shill posting?

Folks, I posted my experiment to get constructive input- and I appreciate all the PM's and emails I've received (from website blog) on this... they've all been very helpful and informative.

Please keep them coming... 'phase II' is definitely in the works.

ps. be sure to let me know if I can post your input/suggestions/analysis on my blog or airforums thread

Thanks!
-Joe
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:42 AM   #311
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dkottum,

I find the link you gave very interesting in the fact that the 09' model trailer has a rounded front compartment door with the same cracks. I wonder if they added any structural support in the waal behind the door or if they just cut the hole and put the door in. That is what was done with mine and now it has some structural framework to attach to.

I also find it interesting that Andy tells the folks looking for answers to just wait their time and see, so to speak. No one here wants to damage their investment and if a solution is known up front we all want to know to prevent the damage. As mentioned earlier the "because I say it is so" mentality is passe.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:25 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe View Post


Andy? Are you shill posting?
I find it interesting that some feel that load equalizing hitches are, bad, good and great.

I also find it interesting that some feel load equalizing hitches are a "joke".

Lastly, there are still many owners who believe in load equalizing hitches, and strive to have proper rigging.

Since there are so many that wish to argue to the points of no return, I chose not to get involved with some of the comments designed to disorient load equalizing hitch principles.

There are ways to get correct load equalizing hitch answers, without the needs of being argumentive, and confusing.

Forums exist, e-mails exist, telephones exist, and USPS service still exists (well sort of). Chose the method of communication that best serves your personal interests.

Andy
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:39 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Krazyjohnny View Post
I also find it interesting that Andy tells the folks looking for answers to just wait their time and see, so to speak. No one here wants to damage their investment and if a solution is known up front we all want to know to prevent the damage. As mentioned earlier the "because I say it is so" mentality is passe.
Why get involved with a fix, when those that disagree, have no fact or foundation on which to base their disagreement.

There IS a fix, but arguing about it, only complicates the issue.

Anyone can say NAH to anything, but not everyone can offer a remedy, to a simple problem as kicked around in this discussion.

And for those that wish to argue, no, the factory doesn't always have the answer.

Should they? Perhaps. But they still don't agree with the 3 cent door lock out fix.

Andy
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:08 AM   #314
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this post is OBJECTIONABLE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimW View Post
...Here are some questions that came to my mind...
hi jim

it appears much THOUGHT went into the post

and the response is mostly measured, reasonable and worthy of the debate.

in other words, good job.

so WHY is it objectionable?

it's in the wrong thread!
_________

krazy's trailer had problems.

krazy posted about those problems.

pix were added to VISUALize those problems.

OTHERS with the same problem posted.

krazy's trailers was repaired (it's premature to suggest it's fixed)

krazy reports follow up on the repairs and trailer AFTER travel.

that's the thread in an EGG shell.
___________

with a title tweak and only a touch of editing THIS thread could be ALL ABOUT 1 important topic...

and IF folks stop wandering in their posts INTO it,

the thread might evolve into reports/followup and fixes on shell/skin CRACKs...

instead of posts by crackpots...
___________

-the stream above (and others with this issue) would be better served if the title was...

--"cracks in the shell/skin of modern streams" (very specific)

---"structural issues in modern streams, their causes and cures" (more general and dull)

----"mother goose built my trailer!" (funnier and yet specific for many themes in the thread)

the egg gets scrambled...
_________

NEVER hesitate to bump an older thread with GOOD questions/insight or info relevant to THAT THREAD.

you really should cut/paste or REpost your note IN fc's thread on MEASURING FORCES AT THE HITCH...

THAT is where the questions/comments/debate RELATED TO THE TESTING belong.

not here.

another thread to read and REPLY INTO might be this one ((see post #60 and on))...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...les-39688.html
__________

now 2 just BRIEFLY respond 2 the substance of your post...

BOTH data theads are at LEAST starting points with measured data and can be built upon by others...

contrast that genuine member EFFORT with the TYPICAL wisdom belched repeatedly ...

"over hitched is what i say it is, no proof is needed, damage happens HOW i say it happens; my years are the only PROOF required"

and it becomes CLEAR that these 'experiments' are a HUGE step in the right direction for folks who want to learn or undrestand or question...

"i'm right because i'm right" is so full of cracks it's beyond repair.
_________

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."


cheers
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:24 AM   #315
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Andy, I'm pretty new on this site compared to you and a lot of others who have been members for a long time with plenty of posts. I know you are a vendor and own a business that sells stuff to Airstreamers, and did the insurance stuff for a number of years, but have never heard about your towing experience from behind the wheel of a TV or what kind of hitch set up does your tow vehicle and trailer use?
I would be very interested to hear what you use.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #316
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Andy, I'm pretty new on this site compared to you and a lot of others who have been members for a long time with plenty of posts. I know you are a vendor and own a business that sells stuff to Airstreamers, and did the insurance stuff for a number of years, but have never heard about your towing experience from behind the wheel of a TV or what kind of hitch set up does your tow vehicle and trailer use?
I would be very interested to hear what you use.
From 1969 thru 1973, I towed a 31 foot Airstream right at 100,000 miles, with sometimes various configerations for testing purposes, thru most of our 50 states.

I have towed in rain, sleet, snow, high winds, daytime as well as night time.

Investigating loss of control accidents while towing an Airstream, over 1000 times, is also a small part of my experience and Airstream background.

Authoring the Airstream crash book, in 1970, in spite of "it can't be done" said the factory, is just another one of my small contributions to the Airstream program.

International media attention and recognition for some of my accomplishments and contributions, over 10 years ago, certainly says at least a little about me, at least in a few opinions.

Encouraging everyone to get the running gear balanced, many years ago was met with "why"? Today, that "why" has changed to "you bet".

I understand that in few peoples eyes, I have a lot to learn, in spite of 43 1/2 years experience.

Oh well, maybe in my next lifetime, I can do better.

Andy
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:59 AM   #317
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Law (or maybe land) of deminishing returns

Since I am quite comfortable with how I am towing my trailer, I have the luxury of finding this very amusing and at the same time very sad.

it seems like once a week (maybe really not that often) someone comes here looking for an answer to "How do I setup up my TV & TT for towing?". No matter how it is phrased it alway generates the same diametrically opposed positions. These fights (it is not really fair to arguments to call them that) rage back and forth until a new thread is started and the same thing happens all over again.

The poor person starting the thread is left shaking his head, and if he is new, probably getting a pretty bad impression of the forum. If one goes back and reviews the threads on these subjects (primarily sway control and weight distribution) it is easy to notice that as the threads progress, the posts quickly morph from answering the original question, to disputing the other answers posted. A good quick indicator of this is the increasing quotes.

One thing that further complicates this is that there is no one size fits all solution, Another is that there seems to be very little in print to help the new person.

I have been thinking about ways to make these discussions more valuable to the OP, but keep coming up to the same obstacle: Human nature.

Would it make sense for members who think they have something helpful to say about these topics, post their thoughts in a central place where the new guy could read those ideas and then post something if he still has a question? Just an idea.

I just ran out of the stuff () I am taking that caused me to post this, so I will stop now. Any suggestion? "Shut up" won't work. I am already doing that.

Regards,

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Old 03-19-2010, 12:11 PM   #318
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2Air,

I would love to change the title of the thread to something more accurate or even amusing. What seems to be ironic is there is plentyof info out there of this issue since at least 2005 and it still seems to be lingering up to at least 2009. If I were a dealer I would be talking to Airstream about getting the problem resolved or not carry such a troublesome design.

It is a shame there are many who spent far less on their educations than those designing these trailers and they can come up with a fix, but the trailer can not be designed correct up front. I think we should get what we pay for. To me that means I paid for a top shelf margarita and got served up a garden variety swill with the premium price tag. Boy! the bartender sure was a hotty though.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:15 PM   #319
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Tuning a Reese Hitch

I think TomW did a very good job documenting his personal experience with a Reese dual cam. What I would like to see is for someone to find a three-axis vibration meter and do some testing as far as vibration in the coach with different weight bars. That would be cool.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:13 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
From 1969 thru 1973, I towed a 31 foot Airstream right at 100,000 miles, with sometimes various configerations for testing purposes, thru most of our 50 states.

I have towed in rain, sleet, snow, high winds, daytime as well as night time.

Investigating loss of control accidents while towing an Airstream, over 1000 times, is also a small part of my experience and Airstream background.

Authoring the Airstream crash book, in 1970, in spite of "it can't be done" said the factory, is just another one of my small contributions to the Airstream program.

International media attention and recognition for some of my accomplishments and contributions, over 10 years ago, certainly says at least a little about me, at least in a few opinions.

Encouraging everyone to get the running gear balanced, many years ago was met with "why"? Today, that "why" has changed to "you bet".

I understand that in few peoples eyes, I have a lot to learn, in spite of 43 1/2 years experience.

Oh well, maybe in my next lifetime, I can do better.

Andy
Great answer, Thanks! What office are you going to run for in DC?
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