SOLAR or GENERATOR? That is the question for Boondockers...

[lewster]

Originally Posted by FCloud9

Hello Lew,
We would greatly your recommendations for our new 2014 20' Flying Cloud. Took ownership 6/6/14 and thus far 21 nights camping with 13 nights "off the grid" but had 2000 watt generator for battery bacK up in mountains. Last recent trip, state park prohibited all generators but we did just fine for four days & very conservative energy use. Our TV is 2011 VW Touareg Sport with factory installed roof rack. Eventually, we would prefer having options with renewable energy with likely use of minimum 400 watts portable solar. Rationale here is for long weekend trips to CG with shore power, we would not require either generator or solar. Is this a logical pursuit?

Original installed ELECTRICAL:
Deep Cycle Coach Group 24 Batteries (2) • 7-Way Trailer Plug w/Junction Box • 110V AC/12V DC Power Center w/55 Amp Converter • 12 Volt ATC Fuses • Interior LED Lighting Overhead, Bath, Wardrobe & Ceiling • Directional LED Reading Lights • 120 Volt Exterior Outlet • Electronic Battery Disconnect • GFI Protection for Bath, Galley & Exterior Outlet • LED Step Light • Exterior Lighting Package Includes: Dump Valve, Compartment (LED) Light & Area Light • Water Pump Switch at Galley • Solar Prewire • Dimmer Switches (2)- Main Ceiling & Bedroom Lights • Remote Generator Ready (25'-30') • 30 Amp Service Detachable Power Cord. Dealer had the 1000W Inverter System installed.

We did just fine in the high peaks of Adirondacks where temps dipped down to 38-40° in the evenings. Only ran heat pump for about 1 hour on rainy chilly morning. We are very hesitate to permanently solar panels on the roof, although would have if the factory installed AC would have optional. Thanks for your help!
Sharon~FCloud9

Please PM me for details.

Thanks!


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[lewster]

I just finished installing 5 of the new Grape Solar PhotoFlex 100 watt panels on me Sprinter roof. I'm on the road to Balloon Fiesta, where I will be completing the wiring to the Blue Sky controller and the Lithium-phosphate batteries.

I'll post some shots, but if any of you are at the Balloons, be sure to stop by and have a look.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[blkmagikca]

When you first start out, you can sometimes rationalize away certain equipment. That happened to me. Back in 2005 when I had acquired a LY diesel pusher that was "fully loaded", I laughed at the mere idea of solar panels - after all, I had a built-in 6.5Kw genset. Fast forward a few years and I found myself boondocking near Quartzsite. The genset was insufficient, as my needs had changed. First, the two 6-volt "house batteries" were barely sufficient as I needed to run a CPAP machine all night. The 6.5Kw propane-powered genset went through propane like sh-t through a goose, and I found that running the furnace (winters in the Sonora Desert do get cold, sometimes dropping to freezing) sometimes drew the batteries down to the point I had to use my towed car to jump start the motorhome. When I attended the International at Madison, I had initially wanted to rely on my genset to power the air conditioners (the temperatures then were running in the mid-90's), but found out that the organizers didn't plan for any propane deliveries (and I would have needed to refill once a day if I ran the air conditioners) - so I spent the extra $$$ to get a 30-amp hookup.

In 2011 I sold the moho and went with my current AS trailer. One of the selling points when I bought it was that the PO had installed 225-watts of solar.

Within the past 2 years I have upgraded my equipment to fit my needs. Some may consider it overkill, but experience has shown me what I really needed to have. Now I have 365-watts of solar, an MPPT controller, upgraded 6AWG wire, 4 AGM batteries and a 3KW Xantrex pure sine wave charger/inverter. This provides for my boondocking needs.

I do have a genset - 3KW cheapie purchased from Harbor Freight for $250 which I only use in "emergency" situations. Emergencies, you say - what emergencies? Well, I did have a catastrophic failure of the 4 AGM batteries last winter while camped in the Mojave Desert near Pahrump NV while taking a course at Front Sight. So for 4 nights I ran the genset so I could have power for my CPAP machine. I also used the genset a few months ago when I had a sudden deflation of a tire on the AS. I needed to bring the spare tire pressure up, so I fired up the genset from the back of the truck and plugged in my compressor.

It all boils down to what your style of camping and traveling is. My summers are spent in Ontario and my winters in AZ, CA, NM & NV, much of it boondocking. I chuckle to think of my early camping days in the 1980's in a small SOB when I would only stay at KOA campgrounds with full hookups and planned any trips between one KOA to another.

[gandttimes]

Originally Posted by mefly2

Please keep us informed as to your progress; pics would be nice, too.

Hi mefly2,only one 4 day trip out so far,and 2 of the days were overcast,and of course up here at the 51st parallel the angle isn't the greatest at this time of year. Still managed to end up at 92% left and the last 2 were the cloudy ones.Fun to look at the TM2030 and see even in through the clouds that you are putting in more than you are using.It was nice to be able to leave the gen. and gas home so the dogs could ride in carpeted comfort in the back.
The roof,the 2 pin 4awg capable plug to truck and the waterproof Anderson plug at the trailer.
I will be making a shorter lead for traveling,but this one is 21ft of #6awg welding cable.

[idroba]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

Are there any experienced opinions concerning the battery option that would provide reliable and consistent power over many years? As you can tell. I have just begun to explore battery options. I believe I am on the right track with the AGM battery, but is this track a dead end? Or not.

First, I have no real experience with AGM batteries but lots of experience with conventional flooded cell batteries in RV applications, mostly golf cart types.

It is my firm conviction that with a proper 3 stage charger and some moderate care not to run the batteries down and leave them discharged, or let the water level drop below the plates, that flooded cell ones are just as reliable and long lived as any AGM's and are much lower in cost.

The three stage charger is fairly critical to avoid water loss. Since adding them to my RV's, I now find that I rarely need to add water as the batteries don't overcharge. Once a year I check them and usually only add a small amount of distilled water. So, that prevents one maintenance item.

When I store the RV's I disconnect the battery negative terminal and leave them in place. That prevents any discharge possibility over 5 months of storage in a cold northern climate. Batteries will in fact have much lower self discharge rates at low temperatures than at higher ones, so cold storage outside is not a problem. I have run tests on this over a cold season, and the batteries have very little recharge need in the spring, like maybe 5 to 10% discharge over 5 months.

In my Argosy, I had 10 seasons of use on one set of Trojan T105 golf cart batteries . They were beginning to have capacity issues in the start of the 11th year, so I replaced them. They were never allowed to deeply discharge and not be recharged within a few days, but were used almost exclusively in boondock applications. I rarely camp with hookups available. The plates were never allowed to become exposed due to water loss. The tops of the batteries were always clean which also prevents self discharge.

I am sure that AGM batteries are also good and can last a long time, properly charged and maintained. But they cost 3 times the cost of a flooded cell battery which can also give very good service, if not abused by letting it overcharge and have plates exposed, or sit discharged for any length of time.

This is my experience over a long time period. If you abuse any battery, flooded cell or AGM you can ruin it rapidly. I think the reason AGM batteries have a reputation for longer life is more tied to the fact that people who use them have proper 3 stage charging equipment. Thus they automatically wind up with better charging. Often they have solar systems which keep the batteries recharged even out camping on boondock trips. They never have to check the water.

Those with flooded cell batteries often have poor single stage chargers, overcharge batteries and don't check the water level and thus ruin the batteries. Then they also may go camping, and then come home and leave them discharged (don't hook them up to power) and add more abuse to them. The typically don't have solar systems. They don't disconnect their batteries from ALL loads when storing them. So, in 2 to 4 years, they kill their batteries. Treat an AGM battery the same way, and I am sure you can also ruin it in 2 to 4 years.

Those who switch from flooded cells to AGM type often make charger changes at the same time. They may add solar too. Often they are made aware of how to treat their new expensive batteries. So, they get more life out of them and attribute all the additional life to the battery type, not the change in how they are treated.

Just my comments and observations.

[PharmGeek]

My 4 stage PD converter replacement will arrive in a couple days for my single stage boiler ....I mean converter

I leave mine plugged into 15 amp at home for a small dehumidifier to run and keep batteries charged - determining soon if my batteries were damaged

I have for now a honda generator I bought primarily for home backup but to double for airstream use for camping/travel and for backyard use for occasional houseguests

Would love a nice solar setup one day - solo with generator for now

This weekend will be a short boondocking weekend at a buddy's property

Solar looks amazing - want it a bit down the road


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[Gringo]

We made one three day weekend with the Zamp 200 watt solar, then the weather went dark and we moved down a few thousand feet to a KOA to regroup. Came back up this past weekend are are still here, but we did run back to town on Sunday afternoon based upon the forecast, and bought a new Honda, too.

Boondocking got a whole lot more fun when I stopped obsessing over how many amps the solar was pumping out. Now, with the Zamp AND the Honday, we're laughing.

[blkmagikca]

idroba, AGM batteries are less forgiving than regular flooded cells. They don't take quick discharging and if they drop below a given point, then they are toast. True, they cost 3 times as much as golf cart batteries. However, they can be used inside the trailer whereas flooded cells must be externally vented. Currently, I have 4 AGM batteries - 2 in the regular battery boxes behind the front plate (externally vented) and the other two inside beside the battery boxes. This was the way the PO set it up, and I find that the extra capacity is necessary for using my CPAP machine at night. What I'm looking forward to is the day when Lithium Ion batteries come down in price, as they have much better capacity and a lot less weight, plus venting isn't an issue with them. With more electric/hybrid cars on the road, there will be more Li-ion battery production and development which will bring the price down. My Xantrex inverter/charger and the Blue Sky MPPT controller I have can be adjusted to whatever the charge settings will be (I think).

[BAB]

Since I will move (hopefully soon), into my new 30' Classic, I am beginning to weigh what I learned with the 28' Intl CCD. One of the things I learned is you really have to think about HOW you will use your trailer. Because I didn't do this with the 2012, I am doing it with the 2015. I will definitely add solar right away, and plan on a minimum of 400W (I'll count on my friends at AM Solar for this project, just like the first time). The solar does NOT supplant a generator if you're out in the southern climes in the south and off the grid. So, I have the (almost) brand new Honda 3000 Handi for that. I will change out the usual A/S cheesy converter with a PD, will add a PI A/C monitor surge protector, and go to Lifeline's when I do the solar. With this trailer I don't have to "up fit" with 16" wheels and Michelin LT's as the Classic has them already. Again, I think you have to plan for the HOW you'll use the trailer and make economic choices accordingly.

[lewster]

Ok, I agree with some of what has been written and definitely disagree with other points. Over the last 10 years, I have installed over 100 Lifeline battery systems, and have several that are in their 10th year of service.

The keys to battery longevity are PROPER CHARGING and temperature compensation on the charge voltage. You will also find that the less you draw down any battery, the more charge cycles (longer battery life) you will get. This applies to any battery, as charging in hot ambient temperatures will certainly input excessive voltage to a battery.

I do not agree with the statement about the fragility of AGM batteries in general and specifically the amount of discharge that they can handle. I have yet to see a Lifeline battery bank respond poorly to a deep, heavy amperage draw to the point of damage. In fact, their specific tolerance to this very situation is one of their strong points

Proper care and maintenance of any battery system will prolong it's useful life.

I have 2 new 100 amp/hour lithium phosphate (LiFePO-4) batteries in my Sprinter service van and will be doing their final connections to my new 500 watt Photo-Flex solar array and Magnum MS-2812 inverter/charger at Balloon Fiesta this weekend.

Lithiums do show great promise, but there are several very specific caveats to be aware of.

Improper charging will kill a lithium in short order. The cells require external electronics for proper cell balance while being charged by a constant current/constant voltage power source ONLY and most importantly.......over drawing a lithium will kill if immediately.

There are no power converters presently available that can charge a lithium. Quality solar controllers and inverter/chargers with the proper software integrated into their remote control modules are the best way to charge lithiums in an RV at the present time.

The industry is working on these problems but their engineering is still a ways off. I'll let you know how my new LiPo's work out.




Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[blkmagikca]

Originally Posted by lewster

I do not agree with the statement about the fragility of AGM batteries in general and specifically the amount of discharge that they can handle. I have yet to see a Lifeline battery bank respond poorly to a deep, heavy amperage draw to the point of damage. In fact, their specific tolerance to this very situation is one of their strong points


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

Lew, I experienced the failure of my AGM batteries last winter while camped in the Mojave Desert. It was a bright sunny day, and I decided to warm up a bowl of soup in the microwave. I had the Xantrex 3000 switched on and when I glanced at the control panel, I saw that the draw on the batteries was 134 amps. It looked like they recovered, but at 1:00 am all systems failed (including my CPAP machine) and the monitor registered 3.8 volts. Four days later I dropped $1,200 to Interstate of Las Vegas for 4 new AGM batteries.

[lewster]

Wow! You are the first incident I have heard. Were they Lifeline batteries?


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[blkmagikca]

They were Interstate batteries. The PO had something else in them (installed around 2000), but he had let them discharge while he had the rig up for sale (it was just parked with a "for sale" sign for 2 years without being plugged in and the solar controller was broken). I bought the rig in 2011, and in January 2012 the 4 AGM (unsure of brand) failed. I had been camped at Lake Mead NRA, so I hustled into Las Vegas and went to Interstate's main distribution center and bought 4 AGMs. These were the ones that died on me in January 2014, and I just happened to be near Pahrump NV, so I went back to Interstate. There was no warranty on them, so I was out another $1,200. I really didn't have the option to hunt around for any other brands, as I absolutely need power at night for my CPAP machine, or I don't sleep.

[lewster]

Still a bad situation, but in my experience, Interstate batteries are definitely not at the top of the battery food chain. If that had happened with Lifelines, their 5 year warranty would have helped you out.

On a technical note, what was the low battery cut-off set at for your inverter? If it was set below 10 VDC for transient level, that might have added to the problem.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[blkmagikca]

Originally Posted by lewster

Still a bad situation, but in my experience, Interstate batteries are definitely not at the top of the battery food chain. If that had happened with Lifelines, their 5 year warranty would have helped you out.

On a technical note, what was the low battery cut-off set at for your inverter? If it was set below 10 VDC for transient level, that might have added to the problem.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

I believe it is at 10.2 volts - I'll have to check it again.

[mefly2]

Thank you for the pics, GM. Very nice!
We are considering the same possibilities.

[gandttimes]

Originally Posted by mefly2

Thank you for the pics, GM. Very nice!
We are considering the same possibilities.

PM me if you need more info. It was a fun and easy project.


George

[TobyR]

There is a place for both. I'd probably use something like Zamp or Goal Zero for solar and have the two Honda EU 2000i series like TBRich described. This thread was a good read for me since I haven't bought my first AS yet. Ray makes some good, valid points in his posts regarding positioning for passive solar as well as thinking with common sense.

[TouringDan]

I agree with TobyR that there is a place for both. There is also a place for neither. I recently returned from boondock camping in downtown Raleigh, NC for 5 days. I have two golf cart batteries. My battery voltage at the start was 13.00v and after 5 days was 12.79v. Battery usage was frugal as only needed for LED lights, water pump, tablet charging and cell phone charging.

As Crawford Gene has observed, most of the motorhome crowd stayed in their campers and ran their generators about half of the time eventhough no AC or heat was needed. I was the only Airstream trailer, also the only trailer.

Dan

[m.hony]

What is the cost comparison between equivalent wattage solar, batteries, inverter and generator?
Solar wins because it is silent and has no fumes, but buying a generator might be easier.