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Old 06-25-2012, 01:07 AM   #21
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After trying to get by on a full charge when leaving shore power and counting on my '11 Expedition to fill me back up on 6-7 hour driving days, plus a 90% conversion to LED's (didn't convert cabinet/storage lights), I found I it was only a couple days of boondocking before I was heading for yellow and red on the battery condition monitor despite judicious use of the water pump and very little furnace. I carried a Honda 2000i generator, but was loathe to use it because not only is it a hassle to pull out & set up, it is not really quiet, when compared to real backwoods silence.

So I bit the bullet and had Safari RV in Reno roof mount a 135W Kyocera solar system, with a multi-stage controller. I couldn't be happier. So far I haven't been more than 40% discharged even after firing up my new 35,000 btu furnace and letting it run until the coach was really toasty. I'm usually fully charged before noon after an average night and morning's power use. After a towing day, I am always topped up. Safari's price was excellent (about the same as the quote I got for an 85W system from an Airstream dealer), and their installation looks very good. They could have done a better job of vacuuming up the sawdust and aluminum shavings, tho.

Here's a point no one in this thread has made: charging by the tow vehicle is, as I found, limited at best due to: the distance from the alternator, the charge carrying wire diameter and increasingly, I suppose, the demands of electronics on a 12V alternator that are both factory installed and aftermarket. For example, while I was driving, I listened to audio books from my iPod through the vehicle's sound system, charged my iPhone, charged my MacBook with the Expedition's 120V, 150W built-in inverter, used both the factory installed and a plug-in GPS and had the A/C running continuously in 100º+ weather. How much was left to go to the trailer's batteries? After the installation of the solar panel, the batteries were fully charged when I pulled into my campsite. I have room for another panel and the controller can handle it, but I don't think I'll need it.

I think the solar system was a very good investment.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winetripper View Post

Here's a point no one in this thread has made: charging by the tow vehicle is, as I found, limited at best due to: the distance from the alternator, the charge carrying wire diameter and increasingly, I suppose, the demands of electronics on a 12V alternator that are both factory installed and aftermarket. For example, while I was driving, I listened to audio books from my iPod through the vehicle's sound system, charged my iPhone, charged my MacBook with the Expedition's 120V, 150W built-in inverter, used both the factory installed and a plug-in GPS and had the A/C running continuously in 100º+ weather. How much was left to go to the trailer's batteries? After the installation of the solar panel, the batteries were fully charged when I pulled into my campsite. I have room for another panel and the controller can handle it, but I don't think I'll need it.
jammer did a nice bunch of mods to address this issue:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f37/...can-70352.html
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #23
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Ricky, I remember reading Jammer's post when I was researching my first Forum question, which I posted several weeks ago: "How long can I boondock, electrically?" While I understand the basics of the charging issue, I'm not qualified to do the kind of mods that Jammer undertook - other than check the electrical connections in the Airstream, perhaps.

I used to be able to do much of my own car maintenance (carburetor, points and plugs, etc), but beyond adding washer fluid, I wouldn't dare get my fingers into the innards of my new Expedition. My best line of defense was a bumper-to-bumper extended warranty, because I know sooner or later the power-everything doodads will start refusing to operate and the electronics will get senile (much like yours truly).

My solution to not getting enough charge from the TV was to get enough from old Sol, and I'm happy with the results - especially since someone else did the work!

Cheers, Don
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:02 AM   #24
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AM solar is fantastic. 600 watts on the roof of a 25'. Installed by Marvelous Marvin Braun. Could not be happier. T.V., Popcorn, Hairdryer, power to waste, and totally charged back up to 100% by noon. Live long and prosper.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:04 AM   #25
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Carmanah Go Power Solar Panels

The Factory uses GO Power Solar Panels made by Carmanah Industries. Ther Sales rep guy posts on the Forum alot and is always quick to answer my questions, or give me advice on my crazy schemes to upgrade my system.

Mark Spilsbury is his name, I have also found some great deals on the Go Power Solar stuff with Free Shipping at this website, BOAT AND RV ACCESSORIES

The Go Power Solar Regulator is really easy to use and I just wanted to say a few good things about thier products as well. I know a lot of people have worked with AM Solar, and thier service record seems great! They have a lot of happy customers and If you live out by them, they are a great source.

Jackson Center is close to me and I had the factory install my 110W Panel back in 2010 and have been quite pleased with it. I am planning a long trip out west to some National Parks this summer where I will be boondocking, and I just bought an additional 2 panels to add 240W for a total of 350W and I will be letting Jackson Center install them as well.

The Factory could use a higher quality wire, they use 10 Guage, but for the systems they typically install that is more then adequate. #10 wire is rated for 30 amps, and very few Solar set ups will have that kind of power. Even with my total of 350Watts of panels now, I will only be able to gain 20.5 AMPS per hour and that is assuming the panels are ALL in direct sunlight and the sun is not blocked by clouds, trees or other.

Now obviously some power can be lost in the transfer due to the Wire and a higher grade wire at a lower guage will be better served if your closing in on anything around 25AMPS, as a wire rated for 30AMPS really is not ideal to handle that amperage at a constant load.

So Its ONLY when people add ALOT more panels that the guage becomes a concern. And AM Solar specializes in Solar and uses adequate gauge wire based on what you order or want installed. Point being, they don't use 10 guage and everyone now assumes that the Factory has set them up for failure in the prewire with an "inferior" guage. Which really isnt the case, unless you make some serious upgrades.

Long story short, I am a big fan of Solar and I learned alot on this forum prior to making my purchase. I even learned a few months ago about the energy tax credit I was eligible for from my initial install in 2010 and just received back my TAX Credit from my ammended return. ( $541, about 1/3 my initial expenses)

I do believe the factory price on the Panels and Kit was high, but their Labor rate was right on par with what you would get anywhere.

So keep the Go Power Solar Panel products in mind as well, they come in different sizes and wattage and fit the Airstream nicely IMHO. Thier webiste speaks alot for them, their panels are high quality.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:37 AM   #26
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AM Solar

I would add my voice to those who point out the advantages of systems from AM Solar. I have a 23' Flying Cloud and I boondock almost exclusively. I have a small honda generator but I wanted a robust power system that could meet my needs under most circumstances without using the honda. I spoke to David at AM Solar and indicated I wanted sufficient battery reserve that my system could provide power to do everything short of AC for at least three consecutive cloudy days. This means running the furnace, lights, recharging phone and laptop, watching at least one dvd on the TV, and occasionally using the microwave. Despite all of these demands over a three day period I also wanted enough solar panels that when the sun came out I could quickly recharge the battery bank.

AM Solar put together a great system with 600 amp hours of AGM battery reserve allowing me to draw on 300 amp hours over any three day period. These batteries are charged by 400 W of matched solar panels through a three stage MPPT charger with a 2000 W inverter to provide power to all the accessories. I have had the system for over a year and it has worked as advertised. I have yet to use my generator on 7 trips varying in length from 2 -6 days in the shade or under full sun or a complete canopy of tree cover. The cost of the system was reduced by 30% this past April when I claimed the federal tax credit.

I do not mention my experience because I believe everyone would want the system I designed. Instead, the advantage of a expert vendor like AM Solar is that they can put together a great variety of integrated systems to meet those individual tastes and budgets. I doubt that even the largest RV retailers have that background and expertise.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:48 AM   #27
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No arguement that AM Solar is great at what they do and that they provide quality products and help develop the best system for each client.

By No Means, can any Airstream or any other RV Manufacture compete with the extensive Solar Packages that AM Solar specializes in.

All i was trying to say, is that if you cant drive out to have the system installed or if you would like to weigh your options before pulling the trigger on purchasing the AM Products to have them installed by a local dealer, or by yourself- that I think Go Power Solar is worth considering, and I feel Aistream has chosen a solid product to install on the campers, and if you do the research and decide you need more panels, they are more then capable to install them.

They won't design a "package" for you or be able to speak at the lengths that AM Solar can about their products. But they can install them.

I contacted the Vendor of the Panels for all my techinical questions and he was more then helpful in the whole process.

If your willing to spend enough time reading,( thats the fun part for me) and if you can make an honest assessment of how much amperage and battery power you go though on a typical day of camping, its easy to see what kind of system you will need to break even on power.

With a lot of people going with 6V batteries, or multiple 12V batteries they are really adding a great deal more "boondocking power" by adding those batteries and the additional amps alone. With that they also add a lot of weight and make significant modifications to suit their needs. The Solar panels are a nice combo with a larger battery bank, but the gain they see is from the batteries more so then the Panels.

Likewise, adding a lot of panels to an RV that has under 200 amps of battery, will help quickly recharge the batteries, but it won't give you any more available power when the sun sets and you power up all your electronics, or furnace and you wake up to see you have depleted more then half you battery power.

Now if you had 400 amps of battery power, instead of 50% down you would be only 75%....and with adequate panels and sunlight you may be able to break even on your nightly use, assuming your daytime use in nominal. If its not, then your going to keep taking down the power and even in direct sunlight your daily use will overtake what you gain with your panels. Hence, your available power drops daily and your boondocking days are limited.

Long story short, everyone camps differently and uses power based on their own individual needs. I don't need 300amps of battery power for the way I camp, I have very limited daytime use in the camper, and my nightly use is easily regained during the day by my panel set up.

Others use more power, and need the additional batteries and the additional panels to charge them...All depends on YOU

No matter what the system, adding panels is easily done...if you have the room on top of your camper, and you may find you just need more or larger batteries amperage
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:34 AM   #28
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When I had a LY motor-home, I had installed a single 123-watt panel on the roof in conjunction with the two 6-volt batteries for the "house". To conserve power I also converted all my lights to LED's. This gave me a bare minimum for boondocking given that I sleep with a CPAP machine.

The trailer I now have came with 3 x 75-watts of solar panels which are roof mounted and, to some extent, follow the curved contour of the roof so the are unobtrusive. The PO had also installed 4 x AGM batteries (which I had to replace at a cost of $1,200) and a 1400-VA Xantrex inverter. I also converted all the lighting to LED's. I can easily boondock for weeks limited by the fact that the holding tanks need to be dumped.

Factors you will want to consider:

(1) How much real estate to you have on the roof of your camper for solar panels. From a practical point of view I would avoid portable solar panels - likelihood of theft, something else to have to put up and take down, possibility of damage in handling and the possibility of inadvertently leaving it behind when you break camp.

(2) How much storage capacity do you have. Practically speaking 4 batteries is the most that you will need. However, because, in AS trailers the design is for 2 batteries (wet cell batteries need to be vented externally), going to 4 batteries, where 2 of them will reside inside the trailer (behind the gaucho) means that you can only use the more expensive AGM batteries. I found that when I had the motor-home with 2 batteries, the voltage dropped overnight from 13.2 volts to 12.0 volts; with the trailer that has 4 batteries, the drop is about .2 volts.

(3) Are you going to install an inverter. Having 110-volts available is very useful for such things as using a computer, watching TV, charging cell phones as well as cooking with a slow cooker. The slow cooker uses about 60-100 watts of power, and in a sunny day out in the southern Arizona desert setting up a slow cooker in the morning for a supper works just fine (and doesn't use any propane).

(4) Generator??? I carry a 3500-watt generator for emergency purposes. When I had the motorhome, there were times where the batteries did not have sufficient charge to start either the engine or the built-in 6500-watt propane-powered generator. On several occasions I have to jump start the motorhome from the car I towed behind. As a result, I purchased a small 800-watt gas generator and a battery charger. When I sold the motorhome and got the trailer, I found that the 800-watt generator wasn't powerful enough to run my air compressor if I needed to top up tire pressure. So I replaced it with an inexpensive 3500-watt one. The bonus is that if it is extremely hot, the 3500 watt generator can power the airconditioner.

(5) Wind generator. These cost about $400, are totally self-contained and can be mounted on a pole attached to the front of your trailer (using the flag pole holder). Pros: 400 watts, works at night as long as there is wind. Cons: put up & take down, some noise.

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:30 PM   #29
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I am going to park my Globetrotter and my Sovereign at my farm (in VA) and hopefully use a solar system. I really need help with this so if one of you kind, technically proficient people would look at the system below and let me know if it is a practical alternative I would be most grateful. I will need to run the AC off it, it being 100 + regularly here lately. Thank you SO much!

The Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator kit silently cranks out big backup power—suitable for big appliances, such as a refrigerator or freezer, and for home health-care equipment.

Kit includes 2 Boulder 30 solar panels to charge the Yeti 1250 in 20 - 24 hrs. using clean, free solar energy—or plug it in and charge it from the wall in 16 - 20 hrs.
Multiple ports including DC, USB and AC make it easy to power up a wide range of devices; activate the ports with a single master switch
Uses no gas and makes no noise or fumes, so you can use the Yeti 1250 solar generator indoors or out—wherever a source of power is needed
Included cart makes it easy to move the Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator close to appliances, minimizing the need for long extension cords
Inputs include two 8mm charge ports (16 - 20 volts at 10A max/200 watts each and 1 power pole charging port (16 - 48 volts at 20A max/250 watts)
Outputs include 3 standard North American AC outlets, female 12 volt port, two 6mm 12 volt ports, 12 volt power-pole port and 3 USB ports
The Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator kit includes protective fabric carrying cases for the solar panels

Imported.

Item 842690
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:39 PM   #30
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The Goal Yeti seems like a very expensive way to go. You could get a lot more battery and solar for that price if you buy the components. Plus at 1250W it's not even close to powering your A/C...
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:32 PM   #31
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We have had top experience with the Goal Zero products.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:21 AM   #32
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Will it even fit on top of the trailer (assuming that's what you're trying to do)? I ask because our 30' has three 70-watt panels on the roof, and I think the original owner stopped there only because he ran out of roof space.

But, yeah, it's not enough to power an A/C. Just to give a floor figure, 20 amps at 120 volts means you need ~2400 watts...so basically you'd need two of those systems, plus perhaps a bit more to account for the losses in inversion and all.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ASIcons View Post
I am going to park my Globetrotter and my Sovereign at my farm (in VA) and hopefully use a solar system. I really need help with this so if one of you kind, technically proficient people would look at the system below and let me know if it is a practical alternative I would be most grateful. I will need to run the AC off it, it being 100 + regularly here lately. Thank you SO much!

The Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator kit silently cranks out big backup power—suitable for big appliances, such as a refrigerator or freezer, and for home health-care equipment.

Kit includes 2 Boulder 30 solar panels to charge the Yeti 1250 in 20 - 24 hrs. using clean, free solar energy—or plug it in and charge it from the wall in 16 - 20 hrs.
Multiple ports including DC, USB and AC make it easy to power up a wide range of devices; activate the ports with a single master switch
Uses no gas and makes no noise or fumes, so you can use the Yeti 1250 solar generator indoors or out—wherever a source of power is needed
Included cart makes it easy to move the Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator close to appliances, minimizing the need for long extension cords
Inputs include two 8mm charge ports (16 - 20 volts at 10A max/200 watts each and 1 power pole charging port (16 - 48 volts at 20A max/250 watts)
Outputs include 3 standard North American AC outlets, female 12 volt port, two 6mm 12 volt ports, 12 volt power-pole port and 3 USB ports
The Goal Zero Yeti 1250 solar generator kit includes protective fabric carrying cases for the solar panels

Imported.

Item 842690
Sorry to shoot down your aspirations, but your Yeti 1250 is simply a small AGM battery bank coupled to a small (1250 watt) pure sine wave inverter in one very expensive package. This is coupled to 60 watts of solar for charging? If it will take 24 hours to charge from a 60% depth of discharge, you are probably looking at batteries with a capacity of about 200 amp/hours (which, BTW, they conveniently omit from the specifications).

I calculate this by using their 60 watt solar array (5 amps max.) during 4 peak charging hours (10-2:00) and the residual for the rest of daylight hours yielding 40 amps to the batteries, 24 hours (3 days) gives you 120 amps of charging.....probably a 200 amp/hour battery pack.

That won't even come close to touching a roof A/C's 120VAC requirements, especially with only a 1250 watt inverter. Then there is a little thing called the Peukert effect:

Peukert's law, presented by the German scientist W. Peukert in 1897, expresses the capacity of a lead–acid battery in terms of the rate at which it is discharged. As the rate increases, the battery's available capacity decreases.
Manufacturers rate the capacity of a battery with reference to a discharge time. For example, a battery might be rated at 100 A·h when discharged at a rate that will fully discharge the battery in 20 hours. In this example, the discharge current would be 5 amperes. If the battery is discharged in a shorter time, with a higher current, the delivered capacity is less. Peukert's law describes an exponential relationship between the discharge current (normalized to some base rated current) and delivered capacity (nomalized to the rated capacity), over some specified range of discharge currents. If the exponent constant was one, the delivered capacity would be independent of the current. For a lead–acid battery however, the value of k is typically between 1.1 and 1.3. It generally ranges from 1.05 - 1.15 for VRSLAB AGM batteries, 1.1-1.25 for gel, and 1.2-1.6 for flooded batteries.[1] The Peukert constant varies according to the age of the battery, generally increasing with age. Application at low discharge rates must take into account the battery self-discharge current. At very high currents, practical batteries will give even less capacity than predicted from a fixed exponent. The equation does not allow for the effect of temperature on battery capacity.

Simply put, the capacity of any battery bank decreases exponentially with the increase in the draw from that battery bank. You would need a minimum of an 800-900 amp/hour battery bank coupled with at least a 2800 watt sine wave inverter. To keep this charged properly with solar, you would also need 800-1000 watts in your solar array. I have placed 800 watts on a newer 27' Airstream in the past, but that was about the limit. A 30-34' trailer could get 1000+ watts using the proper panels (AM Solar GS-100 to be precise).

Still, from all of this, you will still only be able to run a roof A/C for less than 2 hours after doing the Peukert calculations. PM me for the actual calcs. if you like, but basically you reduce a 900 amp/hour battery bank (6 Lifeline GPL-6CT AMG golf cart batteries) to 50% depth of discharge maximum draw. This give you a usable battery capacity of 450 amp/hours.

At a 16 amp draw (for the compressor and fan of a 15K BTU roof A/C), you would expect that you could run that A/C (not even counting inverter loss) for 450 amp/hours divided by 16 amps =28 hours. But because Peukert shows an exponential drop in battery capacity based on the higher amp draw, you actually will reduce the capacity of this 900 amp/hour battery bank to a mere 30 amp/hours, giving you less than a 2 hour run of your A/C.

Class dismissed!

PS: I've tried it and it works out pretty closely to the formula!!!

Guess old Peukert know his stuff!!!!!!!
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:11 PM   #34
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Ok, that explains everything!

I had to read it twice but get it now. It ain't gonna work. I was more impressed by your explanation than Peukert, just so you know. He probably did not know one end of an aluminum can from the other. Those theoretical geniuses are all alike! These Airstreams will be parked with access to large panels so I am now considering a low voltage AC unit such as the Securus. If you don't mind please PM me about that, here is the link. Securus - Direct Current Solar Ready Air Conditioning You have been hugely helpful and I am grateful!

I am sad you don't have Airstreams any more! Why?
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:27 AM   #35
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Lots of great information here, but the OP has only the limited (as we do with our 20) rooftop real estate of a 16' ... we have found it impractical to try and mount enough panels on top of our 20 to really justify the expense. Nifty addition for an AS, but of questionable return other than off-use charge maintenance for us. Hence, the portable panels for smaller battery charging needs. Maintaining the flooded or AGM batts is fine via our panels, but any higher electrical utilization is best handled with our generator - at least here in the sunshine limited skies of the north.

Lewster - thank you again for your analysis above ... as I was just trying to revisit the solar panel dilemma; it appears to be futile for our 20 at this point. Since we already have the gen, the fuel costs are minimal in comparison to more $$$ for panels and more AGMs with our limited available roof space and single axel capacity.
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