Running your Dometic Penguin II on Honda 200 generator with EasyStart

[Driftin Di]

This is the set up we have for boondocking which we are hoping to get away very soon if we can get this to work. We have a Dometic Penguin II AC on our 1958 FC and we had the EasyStart installed although am not sure still that it was wired correctly. And we have a Honda 2000 (sorry mistyped in subject) generator to run the AC while boondocking. When testing the Ac blows the generator into red and will not run the AC after a minute or two. Anyone else have this set up? Does it work well. Again still not sure there was not a mis wire happening from the guy that installed the EasyStart. The AC runs great on shore power. Any ideas? Thanks for the help!!

[CDONA]

I would look for more/other 120ac load that is adding to the A/C load. Converter, fridge running on 120 ac, 120 ac water heater, if so equipped, and anything else plugged in

[AstroBruce]

What is the ambient temperature you are trying to run the AC? My 2 AC units start and run on either of my 2 Honda eu2000 generators with Easystart. But, if the ambient temp. is above 75 degrees, either generator running either AC will overload after about 2 minutes. That doesn't really do me much good. They sure start easy, but they won't stay running. I think the output is borderline, and there is too much current draw at higher ambient temperatures. Does anyone know of a fix for this. So many people on the forum are happily using Easystart.

Bruce

[wulfraat]

See my post #31 and #46 in this thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f448...rt-165988.html

I had to do a few things to optimize the configuration to make it run steady state. Not sure what elevation you are at but I got mine to run reliably at 5,500' which was a stretch for the honda 2000 due to power loss at altitude.

[woodfox45]

What is Easy Start ? I run 2 Honda's at a time for my AC

[wulfraat]

Well, if you had an Easy Start, you'd only need one little honda 2000i to run your AC

https://www.microair.net/collections...nt=30176048267

[thiel]

I would verify that you installed the EasyStart correctly. They have great service...send them a photo of your install.

[AstroBruce]

Originally Posted by wulfraat

See my post #31 and #46 in this thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f448...rt-165988.html

I had to do a few things to optimize the configuration to make it run steady state. Not sure what elevation you are at but I got mine to run reliably at 5,500' which was a stretch for the honda 2000 due to power loss at altitude.

I am at 160 ft above sea level. There no other loads. I did a test at 70 degrees ambient temperature. The 15,000 btu AC was drawing 13.6 amps and ran fine for at least 30 min. I did another test at 93 degrees ambient and the AC was drawing 15.8 amps. It started fine but the compressor kicked out after a minute or two. Ambient temperature makes a big difference in current draw. I need AC when it's 93 degrees outside, not so much at 70.

By the way, the nameplate rating for the AC is 16.0 amps Fan and compressor.

Bruce

[wulfraat]

I would do a few things to optimize performance and hopefully get you operational at 93 degrees...

1. Turn off eco mode on the honda (if not already turned off). I've observed that the honda does not produce full power when stressed under full load when eco mode is enabled. Odd I know. For me, I had to force the genset to run outside of ecomode to get full HP / output at full load.

2. Clean out (using an air compressor gun) the cooling fins in the roof top unit to ensure maximum heat exchange performance

3. Replace your run capacitor in the AC unit for good measure / helps ensure constant voltage to the compressor. The get old and they do go bad.

4. Clean the carb on your honda and make sure you are running high octane fuel. This will ensure you are maximizing HP output on the genset

5. Check your EasyStart wiring connections to ensure they are (1) correct and (2) have strong mechanical connections. Also ensure all connections to the run capacitor are solid mechanical connections

6. Ensure your fridge is off or on LP. (Sounds like it is but double check because the fridge has a pretty big draw)

7. Force the fan to run in constant low fan speed mode, vs auto mode which defaults the fan to "high" when cooling is happening. This will save some current draw by the circulation fan.

8. Use a voltmeter (and amp meter on the AC compressor if you have one) to monitor behavior in the system before start, during start and during run.

Let us know how that goes. You can also reach out to Matteo for additional troubleshooting - he is excellent to work with.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by Driftin Di

This is the set up we have for boondocking which we are hoping to get away very soon if we can get this to work. We have a Dometic Penguin II AC on our 1958 FC and we had the EasyStart installed although am not sure still that it was wired correctly. And we have a Honda 2000 (sorry mistyped in subject) generator to run the AC while boondocking. When testing the Ac blows the generator into red and will not run the AC after a minute or two. Anyone else have this set up? Does it work well. Again still not sure there was not a mis wire happening from the guy that installed the EasyStart. The AC runs great on shore power. Any ideas? Thanks for the help!!

Hi Drifting Di. As the other members have already mentioned, there are many success stories already documented in the Airforums about the EasyStart on the Dometic Penguin II A/C when powered from a Honda EU2000i generator. We purposely purchased and own both devices at Micro-Air factory in NJ for testing. There are quite a few threads (>20) discussing EasyStart in Airforums as of today, but I would probably refer you to the two oldest and longest at the following links:

"Should I keep my 2xHonda 2000i Generators"

'Can Generators Run Both ACs While Boondocking"

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

And now, if you don't mind, I am going to temporarily hijack your thread to assist AstroBruce with his situation...

Originally Posted by AstroBruce

I am at 160 ft above sea level. There no other loads. I did a test at 70 degrees ambient temperature. The 15,000 btu AC was drawing 13.6 amps and ran fine for at least 30 min. I did another test at 93 degrees ambient and the AC was drawing 15.8 amps. It started fine but the compressor kicked out after a minute or two. Ambient temperature makes a big difference in current draw. I need AC when it's 93 degrees outside, not so much at 70.

By the way, the nameplate rating for the AC is 16.0 amps Fan and compressor.

Hi Bruce. Sorry for the late arrival to this topic. I was unaware of it until another member contacted me to make me aware. Thank you to everyone else for contributing as well, most especially Wulfraat for his comprehensive check list. I can add more to this since - after working with Wulfraat on his high-altitude case - I later witnessed firsthand what you're experiencing on another Honda EU2000i at sea level.

First off, and I don't think anyone has any questions or doubts about the fact that A/C compressors draw more power as the condensing temperature increases. That's just a fundamental behavior of every A/C. When the condensing temperature increases, so does the head pressure. And when the head pressure increases, so does the compressor's amperage. One question I have is what the make and model of your A/C is that has a nameplate rating of 16A? Since your trailer is a 2015 Flying Cloud, I would expect that it also has Dometic Penguin II rooftop A/Cs installed like all of the others in that same model year. The dataplate RLA ratings for the 15k Penguin II is 12.9A (compressor) + 2.6A (fan) = 15.5A. Typically, these draw close to 15A in about 80-85°F weather. 15.8A at 93°F is certainly within the realm of possibility, but I'd still like to know what make and model your A/C is, just for confirmation.

More specifically to your issue, back in mid May, I drove 165 miles to visit another Airstream owner in central FL to address an EasyStart wiring issue that later resulted in testing with his Honda EU2000i. To my surprise, after the A/C started up and was running fine, the compressor quit running and the EasyStart declared a stall fault. After some retests with a voltmeter and current meter attached, we found that the Honda EU2000i's output voltage was collapsing at around 14.3A and above. This occurred about a minute or two after the successful startup. You could actually see the output voltage start to drop off as the current eclipsed 14A, and then it would go 105, 95, 90, 85,...down to about 80, at which point the compressor would stall. Almost all 115V compressors will stall at voltages at or below 90VAC, especially when under load. We later repeated this same test result by plugging in a leaf blower and a hair dryer to the Honda instead of the trailer. The same thing happened to the output voltage at and above around 14.3A, even with ECO mode off.

What was odd about this is every other Honda I've ever worked with, including the one in our own factory, can run right up to its 2000W limit (16.7A) and run all day without skipping a beat! This told me we were dealing with another problem that had nothing to do with EasyStart.

Like all inverter generators, the Honda EU2000i is a unique machine. It uses the rectified output of a its 3-phase alternator driven by the engine to charge a large capacitor bank with high-voltage DC (+/-170VDC), from which its inverter side creates and drives the 120VAC/60Hz sinewave output. The beauty of such a design is the engine's RPM can be varied without affecting the line frequency of the AC output voltage (unlike non-inverter type generators that have to maintain either 1800 or 3600 RPM). So, the Honda's internal computer control system adjusts the throttle on its engine based upon the amperage draw on its inverter's output. At first, I thought the Honda adjusted its throttle based upon the stored voltage level of the high-voltage DC bus, but I now believe that is not the case. It uses output current and it likely has an internal table which it uses to set the little servo stepper motor driving the throttle on its little carburetor. In other words, its not a closed-loop feedback system. There are fixed throttle settings based upon load, when ECO mode is turned on. That means if the engine does not deliver the RPM that is expected for a given throttle setting, the generator side of the Honda will "fall behind" the demand of its inverter side. That is exactly what I believe happened with the Honda I was working with in FL, and that is what I believe is happening to you.

We first eliminated air intake and spark on the Honda as possible causes. When neither of those worked, it was deemed a fuel delivery problem. This exactly agreed with Wulfraat's high-altitude situation where he later resolved the problem by re-jetting his Honda's carburetor with the high-altitude kit.

In your case, since you are only at 160 ft above sea level, you likely have a fuel delivery problem due to 2 possible causes: 1) clogged jet in the carburetor, and/or 2) clogged/restricted fuel filter. I wasn't aware of #2 at first, but after some detailed research, I discovered that the Honda EU2000i does in fact have a fuel filter buried in its fuel tank output tube.

So, as Wulraat suggested in his list item #4, I would remove the carburetor, disassemble it, soak it in an approved carb cleaner or solvent that won't damage any plastic/rubber parts. Then, I would find the individual jet ports and consider cleaning then separately and blowing them out with compressed air. It's critical that all the jets are allowed to flow. If you don't want to go to this trouble, replacement Honda EU2000i carburetors are available online. I found a popular one online at this link.

Second, I would go after the fuel filter. There is a YouTube video at this link that shows how to gain access to the fuel filter. You can then clean or replace it. Replacement may be the better choice since they are so inexpensive (found one online at this link)

Hopefully the above helps you get to the bottom of your problem. Please keep us posted.

[Micro-Air]

Oops. I just realized that I've been dialoging with you, Drifting Di, via e-mail, and previous dialogued with you, AstroBruce, via e-mail as well. My apologies to you both for my previous reply that was off the mark in both of your cases. I handle a lot of inquiries, so I get people confused at times, and I don't always know everyone's forum handle.

Drifting Di - your situation as we discussed is still possibly a miswiring since your A/C will not even start on your Honda EU2000i, and the overload light is showing. Please continue with the testing as prescribe to see if the EasyStart is even functioning properly on utility power. The wiring still needs to be verified by you or your installer. The EasyStart may also need to be relearned since your installer already fixed one wiring problem that was preventing it from working at all.

AstroBruce - I just reviewed our e-mail exchange from a few weeks ago, and your Honda's are running on propane. Where we last left it, we did confirm that you were seeing the voltage collapse as described above (not the overload light). The question I last posed was if your propane conversion is delivering enough fuel (propane) to attain the Honda's maximum output. From what I understand, not all Honda propane conversion kits are the same. It's very possible that yours left you in a situation where your Hondas cannot deliver full power. Having worked with other Hondas on propane, I know for a fact that they can deliver the full 2000W steady-state at sea level, and even to a substantial altitude.

[Leadvox]

...

[hhendrix]

Originally Posted by Leadvox

...

me too

[AstroBruce]

Quote,
AstroBruce - I just reviewed our e-mail exchange from a few weeks ago, and your Honda's are running on propane. Where we last left it, we did confirm that you were seeing the voltage collapse as described above (not the overload light). The question I last posed was if your propane conversion is delivering enough fuel (propane) to attain the Honda's maximum output. From what I understand, not all Honda propane conversion kits are the same. It's very possible that yours left you in a situation where your Hondas cannot deliver full power. Having worked with other Hondas on propane, I know for a fact that they can deliver the full 2000W steady-state at sea level, and even to a substantial altitude.
__________________
Matteo Giovanetti
Electrical & Control Systems Engineer
Micro-Air, Inc.

Matteo,
As was noted in one of my Emails to you and Roger; While running either AC on either Honda, when switching from ECO On to ECO Off there was an increase in rpm. This is telling me that there is sufficient engine power available. At the time the voltage started to falter and drop, the Honda was putting out 15.8 amps. The EasyStart is doing it's job in allowing the AC to start on a single Honda 2000. The Honda just can't supply the amps needed to keep the AC running in higher ambient temperatures (88 degrees one day and 93 degrees another). There are many here on this forum and another RV tech forum reporting success running their AC on a single Honda 2000. I would like to hear from these people about how successful they are running their ACs in higher ambient temperatures.

Bruce

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by AstroBruce

As was noted in one of my Emails to you and Roger; While running either AC on either Honda, when switching from ECO On to ECO Off there was an increase in rpm. This is telling me that there is sufficient engine power available. At the time the voltage started to falter and drop, the Honda was putting out 15.8 amps. The EasyStart is doing it's job in allowing the AC to start on a single Honda 2000. The Honda just can't supply the amps needed to keep the AC running in higher ambient temperatures (88 degrees one day and 93 degrees another). There are many here on this forum and another RV tech forum reporting success running their AC on a single Honda 2000. I would like to hear from these people about how successful they are running their ACs in higher ambient temperatures.

Bruce - Thanks for that point from our previous discussions. This is exactly what leads me to believe that the Honda's ECO mode control system sets the throttle based upon amperage, not on the current state of its internal DC bus. One question: When ECO mode was off and the RPM was slightly higher, could the Honda maintain the 15.8A without its output voltage collapsing, or did it just falter at slightly higher amperage, still below its 16.7A max (2000W)?

[AstroBruce]

Matteo,

It doesn't seem to matter whether the Honda is in ECO On or ECO Off. They still will not support the load at higher ambient temperatures. The temperatures the next few days are going to be in the 90s. If you get a chance, can you do some testing in this higher heat? Like I said before, it's not a problem with EasyStart. I think the Honda's are maxed out at these temperatures.

Bruce

[guskmg]

Elevated ambient temperature hasthe same effecf as higher elevation in aspirated engines. That is the effect is compounded when both are increased. In aviation this is calculated by charting

[AstroBruce]

Originally Posted by guskmg

Elevated ambient temperature hasthe same effecf as higher elevation in aspirated engines. That is the effect is compounded when both are increased. In aviation this is calculated by charting

Have not heard this before. Makes sense. How much power would my Honda's loose between 75 degrees and 93 degrees?

Thanks, Bruce

[Micro-Air]

Okay everyone. I've got some much-anticipated updates.

AstroBruce's Case: I directed my colleagues at the Micro-Air factory today to orchestrate an experiment in the hot weather still affecting AstroBruce in PA and also our factory in NJ. Using our Dometic Penguin II and our Honda EU2000i operating on gasoline, they set it up outside in the parking lot where it was over 100°F in the shade. They ran a test where we had the A/C starting and running, drawing about 16A, and we added a 60W lightbulb to slightly increase the current from the generator to 16.4A. The system ran for over an hour before our generator ran out of gas. Attached is brief video showing the visual evidence. The conclusion is that a Honda EU2000i that is in proper working order will in fact deliver 2000W, even at very high operating temperatures. Regretfully AstroBruce, my only conclusion is something must not be quite right with your propane conversion on your Honda EU2000i, thus limiting its power output capacity to less than 2000W. You might need to get it checked out.

Driftin Di's Case: Di summoned her installers back to her trailer, but it was really her husband and she that were the heroes. They called me this evening and we worked together for about 2 hours by phone, cross-country. After some patient and painstaking wiring checks and testing with a clamp-on ammeter and multimeter that Di purchased days ago per my recommendation (outstanding!), we were able to verify that the EasyStart was wired correctly and was running both on utility and generator power. Generator operation was only possible after additional switches for their custom solar/inverter system were turned off, but we later found out that perhaps that wasn't quite enough. After the A/C had been running a short while, an unexpected surge occurred that caused the generator to output voltage to collapse, and that in turn caused compressor to stall. The EasyStart caught this condition, shutdown down the compressor, and kept it from restarting for 5 minutes as it is supposed to. Of course, the Honda seamlessly recover from the overload condition as well. Di and her husband later reported that they had witnessed similar overload behavior of the generator when powering the trailer without the A/C even turned on. We later determined that their special solar/inverter setup used the Magnum Energy ME3112 hybrid inverter/charger, which has a maximum charging rate of 160ADC! According to Magnum, it draws 21A on a 120VAC power supply when in bulk (rapid) charging mode! Given the Honda is rated for no more that 16.7A (2000W @120VAC), this explains the occasional and unexplained overload conditions that would not be noticed when powered from utility, but would definitely be noticed when powered from generator. Di and her husband were very patient, and we stepped through the Magnum ME-RC control panel manual and found the setting where you can limit the charging current. We set it to 50% to keep the maximum AC draw to around 10A. Of course, with the A/C running at about 13A total, the charger in bulk mode still cannot be supported from the generator simultaneously. Di now realizes that the charger must be in absorption or float mode before the A/C can be turned on, in order to prevent any generator overload conditions. They will do some follow-up testing in the coming days after they refuel their Honda.

[lsbrodsky]

Good detective work! Indeed, anyone needs to consider battery charging load. I see a similar thing with my Victron inverter/charger, but the remote allows me to dial a max AC current limit, which I set to 16 when using the generator.
Larry