New Owner - 12 Volt System Priorities

[CoorsLite]

We are new to RV’ing, other than spending 21 great days in a Class B motorhome in NZ. We have a 2018 FB25 twin on order, expected to arrive mid winter. We have not specified the Solar Option (roughly $1,900 CDN). I am now considering initial improvements to the 12 volt system. I expect to apply more improvements over time as we get more experience. I come from cruising both sail and power boats, so I having a working knowledge of living at anchor “unplugged”, including batteries, monitors, inverters, charging systems, and on-board generators. I am less knowledgeable about solar but very interested. In the first year of our travels I expect that we will be at campgrounds most of the time. However early-on I would like the option to boon dock for 2-3 days. I do not expect to need the AC or the furnace while boon docking, at least initially.

With the above context in mind and say a $1,000. (US) budget for 12 Volt system improvements this year, where would you spend your money first? Portable generator? Fixed solar? Portable solar? AGM batteries? LiOn batteries? Improved battery charger (converter)? Might you do nothing until you had some experience?

A specific question: I have two new Costco Group 27 115 AH lead-acid batteries on hand. Will these Group 27 batteries fit in the FB25 battery box? I am aware of the weight difference implications on the tongue. Do you have an opinion of using these Group 27’s versus the OEM batteries?

Thanks in advance.

[Adventure.AS]

You don’t need a generator, solar etc. for your limited boon docking if you have some good jumper cables as you can add some power to your house batteries from your running TV alternator.

[PKI]

First - battery disconnect. Running batteries dead with parasitic load while in storage will kill the batteries. The store/use switch does not totally disconnect parasitic loads. Disconnect battery cables if no other solution is viable for you.

Second - the group 27s are supposed to fit. Good change, since you have them. Believe you rotate battery orientation 90 degrees to get them to fit. The group 24s could be a backup solution if weight is not an issue. Similar to a spare can of gas.

Third - for limited off grid use with no AC requirement, go solar. The question is, now or later as an aftermarket upgrade. Likely I would just add a suit case unit. It is less expensive and flexible as to location so the coach can be in shade and the solar in sun. Also tunable as to sun position.

Do not believe you should need to upgrade the converter for your planned usage. The new ones are supposed to be functional. If you go solar big time, include the best in your install. Waiting a few years may get you a better install with respect to control and battery tech.

Given AC use, a propane generator either big enough or with an easy start upgrade, is the right way to go. There are other reasons that would justify this approach, but if you can avoid and still meet your RV lifestyle needs, fellow RVers will appreciate your lack of noise polution. There are tent noise reduction solutions available.

Research before you upgrade. You can always spend the money later. Pat

[Al and Missy]

In my opinion you don't need to do anything to boondock for 2-3 days. With your off-grid experience you should be able to conserve power well enough.

1. If your trailer has an inverter, don't use it.
2. If you have any incandescent lighting that you will make significant use of, change it to LED.
3. Hunt down any parasitic loads like powered subwoofer and make sure they can be disabled when not in use. (Don't disconnect the propane detector, however.)
4. If you have to run the furnace, limit the operation as best you can. If you can't you will have to find a way to charge the batteries. While you would likely only need a 1000 watt generator it is not that much cheaper than the 2000 watt version if buying Honda. While you can charge the batteries from the TV (the trailer umbilical doesn't do it well, use jumper cables), the generator provides capability to run AC-powered devices like a hair dryer, coffee pot, or microwave and will only be needed to run a few hours every few days.
5. If you transition to more boondocking, you will want to add solar, probably 300 watts or more. This can be done DIY, and the suggested use of a suitcase unit is a good idea. You can start with that and add more capability on the roof if needed.

Al

[Mrjkq]

My AS is a 2016 25'. I struggled with that question Generator or Solar, I chose a 2000i watt generator & no regrets. However, two years later & in retrospect I'm looking at solar systems probably portable for my type use.

[Mattirs]

I've been living off of 200W portable solar system for the past year. We ended ip dry camping more than we thought we would. The advantage of portable is you can chase the sun. By doing so the batteries get topped off daily after a 50% discharge. If we are not running the furnace we can even watch a 2 hour bluray movie.
My wife loves to watch me chasing the sun when we are in a wooded area.

[J-Dog]

Originally Posted by CoorsLite

With the above context in mind and say a $1,000. (US) budget for 12 Volt system improvements this year, where would you spend your money first? Portable generator? Fixed solar? Portable solar? AGM batteries? LiOn batteries? Improved battery charger (converter)?

Thanks in advance.

I believe I read that the converters have been updated on new (2018) Airstreams. You may want to do a bit of research on that before you purchase an aftermarket unit. You may find what now comes from the factory is sufficient.


#1. Do your battery swap.

#2. I would suggest installing a battery monitoring system. There are a couple of good ones out there; either one you purchase and install will be very useful. They are almost addictive in the beginning. (My wife teases me about it often.) Flip a switch and go look at how much power it is drawing, turn it off, and watch the amp draw go down.

#3. Install a fixed solar panel, perhaps a 100watts or so and a modest solar charge controller in order to maintain your batteries.

At this point go out and use your trailer to see how much you utilize your trailer batteries while boon docking. You may find you need nothing more, or you may find you would like a little more solar or a small inverter generator. Everyones needs are different.

Good luck with your new trailer!

[DreamStreamr]

Great comments above. Three I'll echo:
1) J-Dog's recommendation to start with a battery monitor. Best mod we ever did - Deb calls it a marriage saver. It shows we have ample battery for her to turn on and leave on a light til she's finished with it. Victron makes a very cool battery monitor that xmits to an app on your phone. Bogart Engineering makes a well-known one, RV-2025, that displays in the trailer.
2) Eleven years ago we reasoned we could use a 1,000 watt generator for everything a 2,000 would do. Until the recent movement with soft-start capacitors for the rooftop ACs we were right. Regardless, the 1,000 has been ample to maintain our batteries when we're under tree canopy and can't find solar.
3) With 250 watts of solar on our roof we've dry camped several weeks at a time. It's not lots of power but enough that we're comfortable, keep everything charged, can run the furnace at night as needed, and keep the inverter on. A couple of new 100s portable would likely be more productive than our ten year old roof mounted panels. I wouldn't install less than 300-400 watts if I was doing it now. Costs have come down to $1/kw, charge controllers can be found reasonably priced. We love the silent and nearly always present solar charging.

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by DreamStreamr

Great comments above. Three I'll echo:
1) J-Dog's recommendation to start with a battery monitor. Best mod we ever did - Deb calls it a marriage saver. It shows we have ample battery for her to turn on and leave on a light til she's finished with it. Victron makes a very cool battery monitor that xmits to an app on your phone. Bogart Engineering makes a well-known one, RV-2025, that displays in the trailer.
2) Eleven years ago we reasoned we could use a 1,000 watt generator for everything a 2,000 would do. Until the recent movement with soft-start capacitors for the rooftop ACs we were right. Regardless, the 1,000 has been ample to maintain our batteries when we're under tree canopy and can't find solar.
3) With 250 watts of solar on our roof we've dry camped several weeks at a time. It's not lots of power but enough that we're comfortable, keep everything charged, can run the furnace at night as needed, and keep the inverter on. A couple of new 100s portable would likely be more productive than our ten year old roof mounted panels. I wouldn't install less than 300-400 watts if I was doing it now. Costs have come down to $1/kw, charge controllers can be found reasonably priced. We love the silent and nearly always present solar charging.

$1 per watt, I think.

Al

[DreamStreamr]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

$1 per watt, I think.
Al

Yeah whoops! Prices won't come down to my price estimate no matter how hard Elon Musk works. Thanks for the catch.

[gandttimes]

Last time I checked, for a good panel that's going to be closer to $2/w. And the latest Bogart Engineering monitor is the TM2030 which pairs with and controls the TC2030 PWM charger.

[Cyclist]

Originally Posted by CoorsLite

With the above context in mind and say a $1,000. (US) budget for 12 Volt system improvements this year, where would you spend your money first? Portable generator? Fixed solar? Portable solar? AGM batteries? LiOn batteries? Improved battery charger (converter)? Might you do nothing until you had some experience?

A specific question: I have two new Costco Group 27 115 AH lead-acid batteries on hand. Will these Group 27 batteries fit in the FB25 battery box? I am aware of the weight difference implications on the tongue. Do you have an opinion of using these Group 27’s versus the OEM batteries?

Thanks in advance.

I can only give you our experience. When we picked up our 28 from Can-Am in the spring of 2013, we had them install a 155 watt rooftop panel and kit from GO Power (no inverter though) for a cost of $1,200 (Cdn.). We later had the standard batteries replaced in Los Angeles with group 24 Lifeline AGM's. The dealer tried to fit group 27's but they wouldn't fit without a modification to the battery box so we skipped it this time. We've had no problem going off grid for as long as 10 days - but only in areas with reasonable certainty of sunshine (e.g. the U.S. southwest). This also included use of the furnace at night. We've camped under overcast conditions but in warm weather where battery drain is minimized and we've gotten some charge from the panels. When we went to northern B.C. and the Yukon a couple of years ago, we bought a Yamaha 2000 watt generator as we expected to be camping in shade (which proved to be the case) plus most B.C. provincial parks lack electricity.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Even in "the north" solar is a pretty good idea. You can get about 6 x 8 = 48 AH per day under "reasonable conditions" from a 160 to 200W system. If you are in the deep woods, you'll of course get nothing. If you store out doors, a solar setup is great for keeping the batteries topped up. Also, other than initial cost, it's free. No operating hassles and very little upkeep.

As mentioned above, a 2KW generator really is not that much more to deal with than a 1KW. Cost, weight, noise, and size are way less than 2:1 between them. Honda has been the name brand for a long time. Yamaha has always been "the other guy". There are a *lot* of others in the field.

Step one would be something like a Victron monitor (there many brands). Past that get out and see how you do. All the lighting is LED already. The vent fan doesn't use a lot of power and neither does the fridge running on propane. Watch what you are doing and it all should work pretty well.

Bob

[billrector]

Here is my recommendation and priorities:

1) Don't replace anything yet....add. So, add a 2000 watt generator. With this you can run almost anything and charge your batteries....sun or no sun. You can even run an air conditioner if you get the EasyStart later.

2) Add 200W of portable solar. Solar is a great was to top off the batteries and 200W will do a great job in the summer of keeping you boondocking

3) Add a battery kill switch that can cut off power when you don't need it. Even when boondocking, your inverter will draw current even in the off position. If you get one of the blue sea switches that can handle two batteries, you can run everything, just the inverter, just the airstream, or nothing. This is especially important in storage

4) Add some fixed solar

As for your batteries, I'm not sure they will fit. I looked at getting a couple and they are about as tall as the battery box based on my measurements. They will fit "in" the box, but the lid may not close!

Good luck

[CoorsLite]

Thanks to all for your excellent feedback - this is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for and will certainly help us get started. You have helped me to quickly identify my bad assumptions and clarify some other issues.

Battery disconnect switch & battery monitor. We have chartered numerous cruising boats over the years spending at least a week away from shore power. 100% had a mechanical battery switch - typically OFF, Batt1, Batt2, ALL. I wrongly assumed my AS would have some form of true battery disconnect. And I have always relied heavily on a battery monitor. These capabilities were not previously on my radar and are now high on my list.

Solar: I find the portable panel approach very attractive for our needs at this time. Fixed solar for us likely next year.

Generator: The power & simplicity of a generator convincing. I have been looking at 2KW Honda, Yamaha and Atima products. However I am not yet comfortable carrying gasoline (mostly the smell/spill issue) in our diesel SUV or the AS. Regarding noise, we find boat (and wind) generators annoying while peacefully anchored - we used our genny sparingly. I think we will defer the purchase of a generator for now. I do expect the chances are good that we will have one at some point.

Converter: Since we are starting-off with low-tech lead-acid batteries we are probably OK for now. My marine experience is that some battery chargers can distinguish between lead-acid (starting versus deep cycle), AGM and LI batteries, and dynamically change the charging profile to suit the type of battery being charged. Of course on boats you may have a mix of battery types, on travel trailers likely not so much. If we move to AGM or LI batteries in future, my guess is a new converter may be required.

TV charging: I have been concerned about the potential load on my TV charging system through my 7-Way connector. It seems to me this 7-Way connector charging method should be for battery maintenance only. The suggestion of using good battery cables to charge had not occurred to me (duh).

2018 Inverter. I have outstanding questions on this topic that I will research further. In 2018 I believe all 110V AC receptacles are tied to the inverter. This could have power consumption implications that I need to better understand. For example are the televisions 12V DC capable? What can I run with the inverter off? When the inverter is on, does that affect the refrigerator?

[demijac]

When we made the switch to the more expensive Lifeline batteries, our two-day boondocking routine became much more reliable without having to make any special effort to conserve. They are also a lot more forgiving when you run them down too much. Add rooftop solar and you’re set.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by CoorsLite

-- snip -- looking at 2KW Honda, Yamaha and Atima products. However I am not yet comfortable carrying gasoline -- snip --

CL - suggest a Champion or similar dual fuel inverter genset. The propane capability removes the issue of gasoline. You can carry it in the trailer with no odor. The cost of the Honda or Yamaha is not justified. Pat

[quietguy]

Originally Posted by PKI

First - battery disconnect. Running batteries dead with parasitic load while in storage will kill the batteries. The store/use switch does not totally disconnect parasitic loads. Disconnect battery cables if no other solution is viable for you.

Second - the group 27s are supposed to fit. Good change, since you have them. Believe you rotate battery orientation 90 degrees to get them to fit. The group 24s could be a backup solution if weight is not an issue. Similar to a spare can of gas.

Third - for limited off grid use with no AC requirement, go solar. The question is, now or later as an aftermarket upgrade. Likely I would just add a suit case unit. It is less expensive and flexible as to location so the coach can be in shade and the solar in sun. Also tunable as to sun position.

Do not believe you should need to upgrade the converter for your planned usage. The new ones are supposed to be functional. If you go solar big time, include the best in your install. Waiting a few years may get you a better install with respect to control and battery tech.

Given AC use, a propane generator either big enough or with an easy start upgrade, is the right way to go. There are other reasons that would justify this approach, but if you can avoid and still meet your RV lifestyle needs, fellow RVers will appreciate your lack of noise polution. There are tent noise reduction solutions available.

Research before you upgrade. You can always spend the money later. Pat

Perfect advise here. Ditto on the portable solar "suitcase" panel...it's what I did too.

[jnm30327]

I am facing the same decision. I bought a 2018 Flying Cloud 27FB without solar in September. We have made three short trips since purchase but always to a site with shore power. In January, we are going west to Big Bend NP where there is no site available with shore power and the best sites do not allow generators. I really do not want to fool with a generator anyway because of carrying fuel, the noise, the smell, and maintenance. I want to see how we do without a generator. I am willing to do without AC.

What I did was to buy a 160W Zamp Portable Solar Panel. I think this is the normal number of watts for Airstream's rooftop solar package and being able to aim the panels and move them around should improve results considerably. (Good old cosine law).

I am reluctant to discard the Interstate batteries the rig came with when they are almost brand new. I want to see how we do without new batteries. In the meantime, I bought a 500WHr Jackery Lithium Power Pack. It weighs less than 20 lbs and is easily portable. It can charge a battery directly or I can connect up with a 120V outlet as long as the power draw is less than 300 W. This battery can be charged while driving by using a small plug in inverter in the truck. The 2018 Tahoe has a 120W limit from the 12 volt sockets. The Jackery charger pulls about 90 Watts so I can bring the battery into the truck while we drive and charge it from the 12V socket without pulling down the car batteries or taxing the alternator.

I may not need the Jackery battery depending on our power usage but have it as a backup just in case. So far, I got the Zamp Panels for $629 and the Jackery Battery for $500 both as Black Friday specials. This is close to the $1000 budget.

My next step, if this is not sufficient (January sun and weather in Texas), then I will look into better AGM batteries or perhaps even another Jackery.

In the longer term, I would not be surprised to see Airstreams coming with the Tesla Powerwall. It has a capacity of 13.5Kwhrs and weighs 276 pounds. This should be enough to boondock for quite a while! Price is near $6000.

[Bob Peahl]

Congratulations on the new AS! I suggest you use the trailer for a while to determine your camping style.

We made a similar transition from boating to to trailer, in our case, moving from a 40 sailboat with tons of 12V AMPs to a 27ft FCFBTwin (2017). The minimal 12V capacity of the trailer was an initial worry, but after a trip across the nation, I'm not in a hurry to change anything.

We had no issues being off the cord for upto nights. The LCD lighting uses minimal amounts of juice and other than not using the microwave or TVs, we found no need for additional power.

I've considered solar, but frankly, we prefer camping in the woods, in the shade, so solar has little value to us.

I am contemplating a small generator, just to top off batteries for longer off plug stays.