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Old 08-28-2008, 02:07 PM   #261
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But Andy, if the old 1/8" rivets were "drilled out", wouldn't the holes have been enlarged somewhat - making the 5/32" rivets warranted? The head size could still be the same, just the shank 1/32 bigger ~ makes sense to me.

Shari
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:02 PM   #262
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But Andy, if the old 1/8" rivets were "drilled out", wouldn't the holes have been enlarged somewhat - making the 5/32" rivets warranted? The head size could still be the same, just the shank 1/32 bigger ~ makes sense to me.

Shari
Shari.

When you buck rivet, the shank fills the hole, even if it's oblong.

Second, anytime rivets are change out, on the exterior, a small coating of Vulkem should be put around the shank.

Third, if the rivets are bucked in place, then certainly the interior metal is not in place, therefore simply apply Vulkem sealer on the backside of the rivets, completely covering the exposed portion of the rivet shank.

I just went to Aircraft Spruce and they have the larger shank, same size rivet head. The only problem is that they are "gold" colored. According to them, that's it.

Of course someone could spend the time polishing the heads of those rivets.

But, if someone insists on doing it "their way", instead of what the industry accepts, then that certainly is their choice.

Using larger shank, same head size buck rivets, offers nothing to gain, and plenty of time to lose.

Then when the 1/8 inch holes are opened up to 5/32 inch, upon close examination, you will find that the holes have a slight triangular shape, even when using a 30,000 RPM air drill.

That gets you back to square one, namely, how do you fill that hole?

So you go back to the same routine of bucking, that will fill, within reason, even oblong holes.

I might add, using an electric drill motor, or a 3 to 5,000 RPM air drill, will always give you a "out of round" hole in the sheet metal.

Our advice, is do it the simple way, instead of analyzing how they build airplanes, and trying to improve upon it.

Andy

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Old 08-28-2008, 04:04 PM   #263
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Does anyone know the rivet size used to hold the skin panels on a 1965 Caravel?

Ours appears to be smaller than 5/32.

Thanks,

John
The exterior "buck rivets" have a shank diameter of 1/8 inch.

The interior "pop" rivets have a shank diameter of 1/8 inch.

Andy
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:28 PM   #264
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I just went to Aircraft Spruce and they have the larger shank, same size rivet head. The only problem is that they are "gold" colored. According to them, that's it.

Of course someone could spend the time polishing the heads of those rivets.
The "gold" is just a thin coating - it comes off with very little effort. If you are planning on polishing anyways, no big deal. My only point was that if the holes are enlarged, the 5/32" are fine...it gives allows for more metal to fill the enlarged hole.

And I totally understand these are not Airplanes...

Shari
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:53 PM   #265
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The "gold" is just a thin coating - it comes off with very little effort. If you are planning on polishing anyways, no big deal. My only point was that if the holes are enlarged, the 5/32" are fine...it gives allows for more metal to fill the enlarged hole.

And I totally understand these are not Airplanes...

Shari
Well, Shari, you could leave them "gold."

Then a claim could be made that it was the first "Polish", not Italian, but polish, Airstream, that had "polka dots."

That would make more than eyes turn, at the International.

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:14 PM   #266
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You should not have to enlarge the hole if you drill out the original rivets correctly - what you need to do is drill the rivet part way and then "pop" it out with a center punch - that way you don' enlarge the hole.

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Old 08-28-2008, 07:01 PM   #267
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You should not have to enlarge the hole if you drill out the original rivets correctly - what you need to do is drill the rivet part way and then "pop" it out with a center punch - that way you don' enlarge the hole.

Ken J.
Understood...but there are always a couple! We used 99% 1/8" but we have some 5/32" on hand for those few "oopsies", it's not the end of the world.

Also, on our GT where the PO replaced a panel with Olympics...the overlapping holes on the good panels adjacent that are to remain are now oversized. I would think, it's always better to have the holes on the front & back panel the same size - less chance for "wrinkles" in that new skin.

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Old 08-28-2008, 07:21 PM   #268
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Yea - on a replaced panel that has been drilled out, I don't thing two size holes would work well at all - when the rivets expand they fill the hole - but not one that has two sized holes.

I remember that panel - did you ever replace it?

As I understand the gold is just a protective coating they put on to protect them in the bins - comes right off.

The one's I got (and yes they were 1/8) had that coating on them - came right off.

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:11 PM   #269
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I did a whole side of my Tradewind. I agree with Shari, you might be able to punch the tail out of some of the drilled out rivets, but you'll always end up with more then a few that need to be reamed out to 5/32". I used 5/32 for the whole side.

I didn't see any evidence of triangular holes. That only happens to me when I try to drill a large hole in sheet stock with too big a step between drill sizes. If you're just upsizing from 1/8 to 5/32 you won't have any triangularity.

The gold coating is just alodine; most of it rubbed off during the rivet setting. It certainly doesn't look like gold polka dots.

I perfectly happy with the end result. Only complaint is that the replacement panel is a lot more shiny than the surrounding panels.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:56 PM   #270
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Read this too late

I read the 1/8 buck comments too late. I bucked the whole thing with 5/32 today. Looks great -- too good compared to the rest of the trailer.

Not only are there gold polka dots, but vulkem rings-around-the-collar.

Those will clean up easily tomorrow.

John
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:28 AM   #271
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Guess I got lucky or something - when I replaced the rivets all along the bottom of the trailer - I used 1/8" and they seemed to fill very well - that was 2 years ago or so and they are still there, no leaks.

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Old 08-29-2008, 10:50 AM   #272
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Ken,

Where were you able to find 1/8" Brazier Head rivets? I though those are hard to locate.
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:54 AM   #273
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Ken,

Where were you able to find 1/8" Brazier Head rivets? I though those are hard to locate.
Aircraft Spruce has them, but with alodine.

Airstream has them, colorless soft aluminum, by the barrels, avaible thru dealers.

If your in Jackson Center, you can buy them direct from Airstream.

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Old 08-29-2008, 11:41 AM   #274
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Yup - I got mine from Aircraft Spruce....easy to find, once you know where to find them....

Kinda like instructions - they always make sense once you know how to do it....

Ken
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Old 08-29-2008, 02:00 PM   #275
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I didn't see anything on there web site except the Universal and Countersunk rivets. Did you have to call them to get the Brazier Head rivets, and were they special order?
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Old 08-29-2008, 02:01 PM   #276
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Airstream has them, colorless soft aluminum, by the barrels, avaible thru dealers.
If you're OK with soft rivets, you can buy them by the truckload from Grainger. Not my cup of tea.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:02 PM   #277
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Gosh - that was a couple of years ago - don't remember if I got their catalog or on line. I get a couple of those guys mixed up - they are the one's in California - not the folks in Kansas City where I bought my Aluminum

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Old 08-30-2008, 12:02 PM   #278
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I don't see any AN455 (brazier) rivets at Aircraft Spruce. Only AN426 and An470.

I got mine from Jay-Cee sales.

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Old 09-11-2008, 04:16 PM   #279
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Hi! I ordered rivets - Universal Head, AD, 4-3, 4-4, 4-5 and 4-6's. I got them today. I noticed right away that the head size is alot smaller than what is on the Airstream now.

We went out and measured the heads and they are about 1/4' across. So what is that about? Did I order the wrong rivets?

And these are NOT Olympic rivets on the AS. They are solid rivets.

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Old 09-11-2008, 05:13 PM   #280
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Here's the straight skinny:

The original rivets were 1/8" Brazier head rivets. Head diameter is .312"

You can replace with 5/32" Universal head rivets. Head diameter is .312". Head is just slightly more dome shaped than the Brazier head, hardly noticable. 1/8" Universal head is too small, as you discovered.

You can also replace with 5/32" Modified Brazier head rivets. Head is the same size as the regular Brazier head, but the stem is 5/32".

So I would suggest, that you drill them out to 5/32" and use the very easy to get Universal head rivet, or you can also use Olympic rivets which are also 5/32" stem size. If you're a perfectionist, use 5/32" Modified Brazier heads.
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