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Old 03-21-2014, 07:48 AM   #1
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Question Rivets, rivet gun and brazier gun ?

Hello,

Can you help to understand the system please ?

I would like make an order for rivet gun and rivets but on a seller website, he say that I need a brazier rivet ? Why ? Because the rivet gun accept 3 rivets size no ?



For a 60' Airstream, the originals rivets are in 1/8" ? I don't understand why I have to use a brazier...



It's the first time I would like to fit new rivets on an Airstream and I don't understand all possibilities...

Of course, I have to use this tool in order to fix the rivet

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Old 03-21-2014, 08:27 AM   #2
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Vintage trailer supply has a good description of brazier head rivets at this address:

Solid Buck Rivets

So basically, if you want the new rivets you install to match the originals, you need the "brazier head" style. To install them, you will need a rivet gun, the "bucking bar," and a rivet set that is the proper size for the head of the rivet you are installing. As to the size of the rivets, when you drill out those 1/8" rivets, you will probably enlarge the hole. So the new rivet you install should be slightly larger (5/32)--these are what VTS is selling above.

Bonne chance! (good luck!)
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:23 AM   #3
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The original rivets were 1/8" Brazier head rivets. "Modified" Brazier head rivets have the same head size but with an oversized stem.
A 1/8" Brazier head rivet and a 5/32" Modified Brazier head rivet have the same head size, so you can clean up the original 1/8" rivet hole by redrilling to 5/32", and use Modified Brazier head rivets to maintain the same look as the original.

Alternatively, you can use Universal head rivets. These have the same head diameter and stem size as the Modified Brazier rivets, but the head is a little thicker. It is difficult to tell the difference between the Universal head and Brazier head rivets from more than a few feet distance.

The Brazier and Modified Brazier rivets have a thinner edge on the head, while the Universal rivet has a thicker edge.

To be completely accurate, you should use a Brazier set on your rivet gun if you are setting Brazier rivets. If using 5/32" Modified Brazier rivets, use a 1/8" Brazier rivet set. If you use a Universal rivet set it will not match the Brazier rivet head profile and the results will not be optimal.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:30 AM   #4
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Thank you very much,

Now, I understand why I have fix bigger rivets... because I'll drill and the foret unlarge the hole... I'm stupid, it's logic...

In the VTS website, I've seen differents references about 5/32",

They specify : 5/32"D 1/2"L or 5/32"D 1/4"L or 5/32"D 3/8"L

The length is different, isn't it ?
If it's the reason, how know the rivet length on my airstream ? because when I remove one for example, it isn't complete and I can't know what is the original length... ?

Thanks again,

Merci !
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:31 AM   #5
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Rivet Instructions

Everything said prior is accurate. I do think there is a noticeable difference between universal heads and brazier heads, but I'm picky.

We're nearly finished with a more in depth how-to guide for bucking on Airstreams. It isn't ready for public consumption, but I would be willing to privately send you one and you could give us feedback on how confusing it is. Send me a private message with your email.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:45 AM   #6
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Thank you too for the complement,

When you say universals rivets, there are these ? :



And when you say Brazier rivets, there are these :



The Rivet Set for 1/8" Brazier Head Rivets is to install new rivet ?

I have to install this part into the head of the rivet gun ? Isn't it ?

Thank you again...
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:50 AM   #7
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Thank you Steeve, I send you an email !

For all : wonderful for your help !
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:09 AM   #8
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Gael,

In your pictures (which are from the interior), you are showing two different types of rivets. The upper picture shows what is commonly referred to as a "pop rivet," or "blind rivet." These are typically used to install interior panels where you only have access to one side of surface you are riveting. These are installed using an entirely different tool than the "bucked, or "solid" rivets that are in the lower picture. Bucked rivets are typically used to hold the exterior shell together (these are the "Brazier" head rivets discussed earlier).

If you are removing your interior, do not drill out any "bucked" rivets, only the "pop" rivets. The panels that are bucked together can be removed without taking out the bucked rivets.

If you are looking for a rivet gun to reinstall interior panels, then the tools that you show in your first post are NOT what you need. You need pop (or blind) rivet tools.

Good luck!
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belegedhel View Post
Gael,

In your pictures (which are from the interior), you are showing two different types of rivets. The upper picture shows what is commonly referred to as a "pop rivet," or "blind rivet." These are typically used to install interior panels where you only have access to one side of surface you are riveting. These are installed using an entirely different tool than the "bucked, or "solid" rivets that are in the lower picture. Bucked rivets are typically used to hold the exterior shell together (these are the "Brazier" head rivets discussed earlier).
Yes it's for the interior but I have to separate the body from chassis and in exterior I have Solid rivets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belegedhel View Post
If you are removing your interior, do not drill out any "bucked" rivets, only the "pop" rivets. The panels that are bucked together can be removed without taking out the bucked rivets.
Really ??? So good ! I'll look for what you tell me and I'll write if I arrived to remove all panels !

Thank you for your help !

PS : I have a stantard rivet tool at home
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:02 PM   #10
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There are some exceptions on older airstreams. You may find bucked [solid] rivets used to connect interior panels together. They connect ONLY the panels, usually on the ceiling, they do not connect the panels to the body. There is no need to drill these rivets, as stated above take the connected panels out as one piece. However you will find bucked rivets connecting interior panels to the framework around the entry door and some hatches. These will need to be drilled out to remove the interior panels.. You can count on V T S for the right rivets and tools.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:20 AM   #11
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Thank you to everybody, I understand now how it is made

Soon, I'll remove all interior panels,

I've already 1/8 & 5/32 forets and Clecos (with tool) to fit panels but it's isn't for today... ! So I have to make an order for fit new solid rivets (rivet gun etc...)

For pop rivets, I have already at home all that I need

Thank you again for your advises ! I tell you when I remove all interior panels (with succes of course and I hope !)
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:24 AM   #12
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Riveting information from aircraft standards

The minimum length of a rivet is the total thickness of the metal to be joined plus 1 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet. The bucking bar mashes down that extra length to make the bucked head that secures the rivet.

Airstream solid rivets are aircraft technology, so the riveting standards for airplanes contain everything you might want to know and probably more. The US government's version can be found here:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2043.13-1B/$FILE/Chapter%2004.pdf

If this link doesn't work, look it up on Federal Aviation Administration under Advisory Circular 43.13B, chapter 4.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaŽl View Post

For pop rivets, I have already at home all that I need ...

GaŽl,
An additional item. Make sure that your pop rivets do NOT have steel shanks (the center shaft), they should be all aluminum.

Removing a pop rivet that has a steel shank is a horrible, messy job when you eventually have to re-drill one out.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:23 PM   #14
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HiHoAgRV : It seems there are in aluminium, but if they are in steel, what is the problem, it more difficult to remove, is it ?

mimiandrews : thank you for the length info, the direct link is good, and I keep the link and I'll read it, at least the chapter I need and as soon as I have more time, I'll try to read all.

Other question, perhaps silly for you... :

What is the best way to remove solid rivets ? I've read that it's possible to remove without drilling, but "by hunting it" (sorry I don't know the word in english...)

Thank you !
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:04 PM   #15
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The best way to remove solid rivets is to drill into the head, leaving the head still in place, then use a 1/8" punch and small 8 to 12 oz hammer with a switch tap to punch the body of the solid rivet out. The other techniques that are other mentioned such as using a wood chisel will elongate existing holes and/ or damage the skin.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:05 PM   #16
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Aluminum pop rivets with a steel center [also called nail or mandrill] may show rust stains through the paint months after the renovation is complete. They are also less likely to "break clean" when installing. If in doubt try a magnet on your pop rivets. The only way to remove bucked or pop rivets without damaging the surrounding metal is to drill them out with the proper drill bit.
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:50 AM   #17
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Thank you William and Putback,

I've already tried to remove a solid rivet and... very difficult ! I use a good drill...

For pop rivet, they come out very very easily at the moment.

I have a little other question about solid rivets... :

If the hope shape is too large, nevertheless the solid rivet can fix correctly because there is a good pressure between the 2 shapes when the rivet is in place ?
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:48 AM   #18
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This midday, I was returned to see the Airstream and you have reason, all panels assembled with solid rivets come in one piece, I've had only drill around the door to remove a great piece of panels !

I found a good technique to remove solid rivet, I've used a 1/8" drill and at the beginning, I didn't put much strong effort and then, when the drill begin to enter into the rivet, I push the drill to remove it clearly, the hole looks well

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Old 03-24-2014, 09:11 AM   #19
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Enlarged rivet holes

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaŽl View Post
Thank you William and Putback,

I've already tried to remove a solid rivet and... very difficult ! I use a good drill...

For pop rivet, they come out very very easily at the moment.

I have a little other question about solid rivets... :

If the hope shape is too large, nevertheless the solid rivet can fix correctly because there is a good pressure between the 2 shapes when the rivet is in place ?
Solid rivets will fill a hole that is only slightly enlarged when the old rivet is drilled out. If the hole is much enlarged, then drill it out and use the next larger size of rivet.

Drilling solid rivets requires a little practice, but is not really difficult. Try to keep the drill centered in the rivet head, and drill only through the head. The shaft of the rivet in the hole can be driven out with a punch, and the hole will remain the correct size.

Be careful not to use too much force on the punch, because the inner piece of aluminum can bend. Too much gap between the sheets of aluminum is a worse problem than an enlarged hole.

Do you have any friends who work on aircraft sheet metal?
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaŽl View Post
HiHoAgRV : It seems there are in aluminium, but if they are in steel, what is the problem, it more difficult to remove, is it ?...

Thank you !
When removing a steel shanked pop riet, the drill will usually impact the steel then jump off center into the soft rivet creating a goofy hole with a messed up rivet still inside.

If you CAN keep the drill centered, the drill will grab the steel and start the rivet turning in the hole.

Either way, it's difficult to remove with a chisel because of the steel shank.

Remember, someone else will eventually own the Airstream and they will thank you for not using steel pop rivets!
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