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Old 03-07-2016, 09:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowood View Post
I would suggest you replace the rear panel and then remove the blind rivets on the picture, clean up the corrosion and re-seal and solid rivet back together. Your trailer looks about normal.
Thank you for the advise. I will do just that.
On another note (and sorry for not bumping this thread with a quicker response, as I was working on the Safari pretty much the whole weekend), I found this thread concerning using 3M Aluminum Oxide Imperial Wetordry sandpaper on the external skins via 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1000 grit followed by polishing with F7 Nuvite polish that talks about tackling the external filiform corrosion issues:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f441...n-42083-5.html
I picked two right hand corner panels, got a bucket of water, got some 320 aluminum oxide paper to get going, wrapped the paper around a sponge, and started at it. Hopefully this is not the wrong thing to do, and hopefully even more, my technique in doing so this weekend was not wrong.
I sanded of course in one one direction (the rivets and skin seams I have to go back to with perhaps a plastic scraper/sand paper as they posed a challenge of sanding out completely with the sponge/sand paper technique).
I assumed that I should get most of the worming out with the 320 grit, and later only lightly sand over with the 400, 600, 800, 1000, followed by the F7 Nuvite polish. Hopefully I didn't take too much of the Alclad finish off the exterior as I was somewhat aggressive in that I wet sanded with the 320 until most of the worming of the filiform became almost invisible to the naked eye.
I'm taking Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday off this week so that I can continue working (I still need to pick up a quality polisher, perhaps a Makita and some Nuvite F7, as well as the extra grit sandpapers: 400, 600, 800 and 1000). Hopefully on the right path here? Before going any further, I thought to stop at the two panels I already sanded offHere are some pics:


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Old 03-15-2016, 11:41 PM   #22
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You may want to take a trip to the factory in Ohio.
Bring along a list and pictures of things you may need.
You can take a tour learn a lot about your Airstream and last but not least order important parts you may need.
I would also suggest you install new channels around the window area.
Seems like to me the channel was cut away and left out when the new window was installed.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:49 AM   #23
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I must first say that I'm what is described as a Commercial Vender on this Forum and as such I am limited by what can be said. Your Airstream's damage is the exact reason that I have spoken up against other Commercial Vender's work, which I guess is a NO No according to the rules of this Forum... Many times I have spoken out when I see work that is incorrect just to have my posts deleted and be warned for speaking out, I guess, negative about others... But your Post is the very reason that I have called out what I think is work that was done incorrectly. The use of Olympic style rivets, for the these types of repairs, were done to your trailer were incorrect and this is why you have mass water destruction to your trailer, if the repairs were done correctly your trailer would of not have damage this extensive. I hope that others out there will see by your pictures posted and start raising the questions on the the use of Olympic rivets in stead of Solid rivets (how your trailer was constructed) on major panel repairs!!!!
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:35 AM   #24
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I am not a commercial vendor, just an Airstream fanatic who has restored many Airstreams over the decades.
Not of much value, but this is my opinion about your panel repair with olympic rivets:
its not the use of Olympic rivets that caused your issues, but rather the incorrect use. (see picture below for correct use) I do not see any sealer oozing out of the rivets and there may not even be any tape or sealer under the seams.
Being advised to now replace the olympic rivets with the smaller size buck rivets is IMHO bad advise, which will lead to even more water intrusion. Just drilling the olympic rivets even on a perfect day will in many cases lead to enlarged holes, causing more problems.
Anyone who has taking panels apart on an Airstream, knows that no sealer or tape was used during assembly.
I would do like the factory does, clean the inside as good as you can and seal the rivets and seams with a high quality polyurethane sealer like vulkem 116 from the inside.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbeck11931 View Post
I would also suggest you install new channels around the window area.
Seems like to me the channel was cut away and left out when the new window was installed.
There are a few numerous vertical channels that look like they may have been cut at a 45 degree angle and several pieces of interior panel cuts placed in between the vertical channel and exterior panel on several places. I'll make sure to get some photos of this up as I was looking skeptically at these areas already without mentioning it before on this thread. The line of screws above that the side window that I posted already, are the screws holding the awning rail. Are you talking about this horizontal channel or the vertical ones that look cut at the 45 degree marks with wedges of aluminum sandwiched between them and the exterior skin?
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:04 AM   #26
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I must first say that I'm what is described as a Commercial Vender on this Forum and as such I am limited by what can be said. Your Airstream's damage is the exact reason that I have spoken up against other Commercial Vender's work, which I guess is a NO No according to the rules of this Forum... Many times I have spoken out when I see work that is incorrect just to have my posts deleted and be warned for speaking out, I guess, negative about others... But your Post is the very reason that I have called out what I think is work that was done incorrectly. The use of Olympic style rivets, for the these types of repairs, were done to your trailer were incorrect and this is why you have mass water destruction to your trailer, if the repairs were done correctly your trailer would of not have damage this extensive. I hope that others out there will see by your pictures posted and start raising the questions on the the use of Olympic rivets in stead of Solid rivets (how your trailer was constructed) on major panel repairs!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer View Post
I am not a commercial vendor, just an Airstream fanatic who has restored many Airstreams over the decades.
Not of much value, but this is my opinion about your panel repair with olympic rivets:
its not the use of Olympic rivets that caused your issues, but rather the incorrect use. (see picture below for correct use) I do not see any sealer oozing out of the rivets and there may not even be any tape or sealer under the seams.
Being advised to now replace the olympic rivets with the smaller size buck rivets is IMHO bad advise, which will lead to even more water intrusion. Just drilling the olympic rivets even on a perfect day will in many cases lead to enlarged holes, causing more problems.
Anyone who has taking panels apart on an Airstream, knows that no sealer or tape was used during assembly.
I would do like the factory does, clean the inside as good as you can and seal the rivets and seams with a high quality polyurethane sealer like vulkem 116 from the inside.
I've already gone about purchasing the buck rivet kit at VTS.
The kit comes with the 5/32 modified brazier rivets.
If drilling out the (5/32 pop rivets?) with the 5/32 #21 drill bit attached to the rivet remover tool, will the 5/32 modified rivets that VTS sells not work?
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:22 AM   #27
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I just called VTS, and they said something to the degree that if I drilled out the blind rivets with 5/32 which are probably 5/32 size, I would have to probably replace them with perhaps 3/16 rivets. Does this seem right?

I did a quick google search and came across these two links(one link saying brazier head, not modified brazier head, whereas the second link specifies "modified brazier head," both soft and hard available, so not sure what that means or if there is any difference)?:

http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/i...t.aspx?cat=427

http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/i...t.aspx?cat=426


https://www.zoro.com/value-brand-riv...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:47 AM   #28
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For the record the reason Olympic rivets fail in body panel replacements have nothing to do with how they are sealed or not sealed... Olympic rivets are NOT a structural rivet. As your trailers goes down the road it moves much like how a airplane wing does in flight... This movement losses the Olympic rivets up to such a degree that in many cases they start to fail and come apart like a zipper. Solid rivets will not do this and when done right are water proof. Yes, drilling out the olympic rivet will make the hole size bigger but they were drilled out larger than what the solid rivets were from the factory, because the Olympic are made 3/16 not smaller. So replacing them with 3/16 solid rivets will work.. Yes some will be a tad undersized but will fill that void or hole when you buck them in place because they expand into the hole size and mushroom on the back side. The VTS rivets are slightly softer than the Blazer rivets (no longer available) and will work great for your repair.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinstream View Post
For the record the reason Olympic rivets fail in body panel replacements have nothing to do with how they are sealed or not sealed... Olympic rivets are NOT a structural rivet. As your trailers goes down the road it moves much like how a airplane wing does in flight... This movement losses the Olympic rivets up to such a degree that in many cases they start to fail and come apart like a zipper. Solid rivets will not do this and when done right are water proof. Yes, drilling out the olympic rivet will make the hole size bigger but they were drilled out larger than what the solid rivets were from the factory, because the Olympic are made 3/16 not smaller. So replacing them with 3/16 solid rivets will work.. Yes some will be a tad undersized but will fill that void or hole when you buck them in place because they expand into the hole size and mushroom on the back side. The VTS rivets are slightly softer than the Blazer rivets (no longer available) and will work great for your repair.
Thank you Vinstream for all your help.
I really want to do the job right and fix the structural integrity of the outer shell.
I'm still a bit confused though.
I assumed that the Olympic rivets are probably 5/32 size, not 3/16?
So you think the olympic rivets are 3/16, not 5/32?
I haven't drilled any of them out yet, but was thinking to use the 5/32 (#21), if in fact they are 5/32 drill bit to drill them out, which I thought would enlarge the holes as you said, but then buck riveting the larger 3/16 soft brazier aluminum rivets? Would it be better to drill them out with a 3/16 drill bit if I am to use 3/16 size rivets instead?
It seems VTS does not carry any buck rivets larger than 5/32 size.
But I found this link which has the soft modified brazier rivets for size 3/16:
http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/i...t.aspx?cat=427
Another question, I'm sorry I'm asking so much as I have 0 experience doing this....
When I buck rivet, should I dab some vulkem in the given hole as well as the buck rivet before bucking? Was a bit confused as to whether or not I should just put vulkem on the the back ends after bucking or to apply vulkem to the solid rivets before I proceed to buck?
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:58 PM   #30
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To make matters more confusing to me, I just read a past thread where Aerowood is using AN470A universal rivets instead of AN456A rivets (modified brazier type sold at Vintage Airstream). So now thinking that I should perhaps use these...
Quoting Aerowood in another post, he calls the modified brazier type/AN456A "DEAD SOFT," which has me somewhat alarmed.

Edit: Here is a link of the AN470A solid aluminum rivets at Airstream Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...lumrivets2.php


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowood View Post
The rivets sold by VTS are AN456A-5-4 & -6, they are a Modified Brazier Head which has a .312 diameter head but a 5/32" shank. The original rivets used by Airstream is an AN455A-4-X or an AN455AD-4-X which is a Brazier Head and has a .312 diameter head and a 1/8" shank. The rivets I'm using along with other members is an AN470A or AD -5-X which is a Universal Head which has a .312 diameter head and a 5/32" shank but also has a thicker head profile or a smaller radius of the shaped head. These rivets are what is currently used in the aviation industry and are available in a hugh variaty of sizes and alloys. The Brazier head rivets are no longer used in aviation, and sizes and alloys is limited.

An AN455A-4-X and an AN456A-5-X will use the same rivet set but an AN470A-5-X will require a 470-5 rivet set
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:55 PM   #31
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I'm not sure when Airstream started using 1100 alloy, aka "A" or "dead soft" rivets to assemble their trailers but I know it is was around 1969 and later. The rivets that held the shell to "C" channel were AN470AD4-X (2117 alloy). From what I can tell most are using the rivets from VTS along with the companion rivet set. Before VTS started, getting replacement rivets was limited and several of us aviation guys just started using the 470 rivets because they are so similar in head style and and have more sizes, alloys, and lengths then what has been previously offered. They is also infinitely more variety in rivet sets and tooling available.

All that being said, the rivets you bought from VTS will be fine, I was just letting people know that there are alternatives to the modified brazier head.

Attached is a section from an FAA Advisory Circular that has alot of good information on rivets and alloys
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:43 PM   #32
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I'm not sure when Airstream started using 1100 alloy, aka "A" or "dead soft" rivets to assemble their trailers but I know it is was around 1969 and later. The rivets that held the shell to "C" channel were AN470AD4-X (2117 alloy). From what I can tell most are using the rivets from VTS along with the companion rivet set. Before VTS started, getting replacement rivets was limited and several of us aviation guys just started using the 470 rivets because they are so similar in head style and and have more sizes, alloys, and lengths then what has been previously offered. They is also infinitely more variety in rivet sets and tooling available.

All that being said, the rivets you bought from VTS will be fine, I was just letting people know that there are alternatives to the modified brazier head.

Attached is a section from an FAA Advisory Circular that has alot of good information on rivets and alloys
Thank you so much Aerowood.
I'll go ahead and use the soft AN456A1100 alloy modified braziers then for the ext. skins since I got the kit already and thanks to your advice.
But the buck rivets VTS sold me are only 5/32. They don't carry 3/16 size but I think these are the same type of rivets?:
http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/i...t.aspx?cat=427
Do you think I should use a 3/16 drill bit on the Olympics and then use 3/16 AN456A rivets for bucking?
Also, thanks so much for the rivet pdf.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:43 PM   #33
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EDIT: Thanks for the pm(s) guys.
I'm all set now. Will proceed with bucking w/ the VTS bucking set I already bought.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:02 AM   #34
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Look at your other Windows. Hopefully they are framed out properly.
The window should be framed out with the aluminum channels horizontal and vertical or "stringers and ribs"
It's not difficult to splice new channels in.
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:51 AM   #35
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You may want to take a trip to the factory in Ohio.
Bring along a list and pictures of things you may need.
You can take a tour learn a lot about your Airstream and last but not least order important parts you may need.
I would also suggest you install new channels around the window area.
Seems like to me the channel was cut away and left out when the new window was installed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbeck11931 View Post
Look at your other Windows. Hopefully they are framed out properly.
The window should be framed out with the aluminum channels horizontal and vertical or "stringers and ribs"
It's not difficult to splice new channels in.
I took pictures yesterday after work of the other windows, including the one in question which you pointed out that you thought is missing channels/"stringers and ribs," that should be framed around them and to my surprise, even the windows at the adjacent side of the trailer that had not had panel replacements (buck rivets in place), looked very similar to the window in question. Pics are below, followed by 3 of the initial window in question last in line.





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Old 03-20-2016, 01:59 PM   #36
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Supergrafx77

It has been 15 years since I performed extensive sheet metal repair, but I will attempt to explain tried and true sheet metal skins replacement.
Keep in mind this work was done for a Aluminum tube flying at 440+ knots.
How extensive you wish to go is up to you.

Step 1.
Drill off the old skin by drilling only the rivet heads off using the proper size drill bit and staying in the center the rivet head will easily break loose and spin. At times I would have over 10 rivet heads stuck on my drill bit before I stopped to clean them off.
Carefully punch the rivet shank and tail out of the hole, only running your drill bit through when necessary. Careful not to dent your adjacent skin panel.
Step 2.
Place your new panel over your repair and "back drill" from the inside of the camper through your old support channel using the smallest drill bit possible. #30 drill bit.
Install clecos in every third hole Trim the panel to fit as you progress along.
Once you have your new panel trimmed a fitting perfectly, run a strip of blue painters tape on the aluminum skin you will be riveting to butting up to the edge of your new panel overlap. Remove panel and prepare for final install.

NOTE:
We always apply a "very thin layer" of sealant to the new panel just before final install and Only where they overlap. .025" is the average thickness of the sealant.
With a little practice on a old piece of metal you can do this easily by hand using a plastic scraper.
You may also want to practice drilling and riveting on a old panel before moving on to your repair.
When you cleco the panels back together some sealant will ooze out and more will ooze out during riveting. Use sealant with a longer working time as possible 4-6 hours.
The longer the better.

Step 3.
Install the new panel with sealant and reinstall clecos.
Drill out rivet holes to the proper size and install rivets as you go. Once you have completed all the open holes go back and remove clecos and rivet. Remove painter tape and clean any sealant off using acetone and a plastic scraper. When the sealant is 3/4 setup it is much easier to remove with a plastic scraper.
No metal or aluminum scrapers allowed.
Note:
Using excessive sealant will cause buckling between rivets resulting In a unsightly wavy pattern along your finished edge.
Keep acetone and paper towels nearby during final install you both will need it to keep your tools clean.
Doing this will give you a water tight structural repair that will last years.
Hope this helps
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