Exterior aluminum prewar models

[freeman_61]

In the models produced prior to WWII ( i.e. 1936-39) was 2024 T3 0.32 Alclad used for exterior sheets?

[Aerowood]

The alloy number then was 24-ST. It was used until the mid 50's when the alloy number changed to 2024-T3. 24-ST and 2024-T3 are interchangeable.

[freeman_61]

Thanks. Does anyone have photos of the inside (non-polished) face of one of those vintage (prewar) sheets that were taken during a restoration. I am interested in seeing if production stamping from alcoa is visible on them. This is important to a historical investigation involving Amelia Earhart and her Lockheed Electra airplane. We know how the stamps looked during WWII aircraft production but it is not clear what was done prior to that in 1936/37. The stamps I am talking about are paint/ink applied directly to the rolls of aluminum during production and read something like "ALCLAD 24 S T3".

Thanks

[Aerowood]

I've see Alclad 24-ST but never 24 S T3. But just because I've never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. Back in the 30's metals were not as standardized as today.

[Jim & Susan]

Freeman, that's a really interesting reason to ask about aluminum sheeting. Care to share more details?

Jim

[ALUMINUMINUM]

Maybe the Bowlus people can help.

Hawley Bowlus built eighty aluminum trailers from 1934 to 1937, before Byam re-badged the Bowlus design as an Airstream...

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

Maybe the Bowlus people can help.

Hawley Bowlus built eighty aluminum trailers from 1934 to 1937, before Byam re-badged the Bowlus design as an Airstream...

Bowlus trailers were made from 1934 thru 1936. Airstream started making aluminum Clippers in 1936 before Bowlus finally went out of business. There are significant construction differences between Bowlus trailers and Airstream Clippers. The Airstream Clippers were NOT rebadged Bowlus's.

Both brands of aluminum trailers were made concurrently in 1936 according to the Bowlus expert John Long, who restored a vintage Bowlus, met descendents of the Bowlus family, wrote the definitive book about Bowlus trailers, and the started the modern Bowlus Trailer company a few years ago. John Long would be the guy to ask about the aluminum used in Bowlus trailers. Just do an internet search for the modern Bowlus company to get in touch with him.

[ALUMINUMINUM]

“The Airstream were NOT rebadged Bowlus'.”


Actually, I was careful NOT to say rebadged Bowlus. “re-badged the Bowlus design as an Airstream” is what I said. Wasn't Byam selling Do-It-Yourself wood-framed torpedo plans and kits before the Bowlus?

I've long wanted to understand the transitional relationship of Bowlus to Airstream. I've been to Henderson, toured the old and new trailers, and chatted with the Bowlus folks, John and Helena.

Has a detailed, true account of the Bowlus/Airstream transition ever been researched or written? All I find is the repeated simplistic story that Bowlus hired Byam to manage sales and marketing. One year later, Bowlus Trailers went bankrupt, Byam bought the tooling and material at auction, and rehired the fabricators.

Was Byam working for, and competing with Bowlus simultaneously?

The remarkable change was Byam moved the entry from front to side. So yes, they are different, but looks to me that my Airstream evolved from Bowlus' Aircraft design, and not the Byam wood-framed torpedo kit. I think it's fair to say that Airstream, Streamline, Silver Streak, Avion, and Spartan all follow Bowlus' design.

Was Hawley Bowlus glad to be out of the trailer designing business?

So Sorry to derail this thread.

Historical aluminum investigation involving Amelia Earhart and her Lockheed ?? WOW!

[mimiandrews]

Historical aluminum investigation involving Amelia Earhart and her Lockheed ?? WOW!

Look it up on tighar.org It's an interesting project.

Don't forget the "h" in the URL. Autocorrect just tried to remove it for me.

[Aerowood]

Early structural aluminum also went by several other names, called Duralumin, duraluminum, duraluminium, duralum, duralium or dural.

[Bubba L]

On our 1955 Flying Cloud, the 24 S - T3 is stenciled on the inside of the exterior panels. Whether this was the current label of the 1955 Alclad, or older surplus aluminum was used, I can't say. Hope this helps.j

[freeman_61]

Yes this is related to the TIGHAR (pronounced tiger) investigation.
https://tighar.org
The Tighar theory is that instead of simply running out of gas and crashing into the South Pacific ocean Amelia Earhart and her navigator landed on a smooth part of the reef surrounding Gardner Island (now called Nikumaroro) in the Phoenix Island Group. They believe her aluminum skinned Lockheed Electra was eventually washed off that reef by high tides or storm and battered to pieces in the tidal zone but that Earhart survived on the uninhabited island for a few weeks. Skeletal remains were found a couple of years later by Polynesian settlers brought to the island by the British. TIGHAR has gone to island several times and found items potentially related to Earhart including a piece of Alclad 24ST, 0.32" that they think was used make a repair on the Electra just before it left the States on her round the world trip ( this was widely reported a couple of years ago, (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/scien...-plane-n236511). The size, shape and rivet lines all match up well with photographs but on one side is a faint AD stamp, the rest of the aluminum on her plane can be seen in photographs to have a stamp that read "ALC 24ST"( so no AD) , her plane was built in 1936 and she was lost in July 1937. By the start of WWII ALCOA had started to stamp their aluminum sheets with ALCLAD but its not clear when that started, critics have suggested that this sheet is a left over from some WWII plane and not from Earhart's plane. There are few planes left from that period and many of those that have survived have been reskinned. Aluminum Airstreams built before 1939 therefore are potential source to see how Alcoa was stamping the aluminum in that period, so if anyone has any photos taken during restorations it would be a great help.

Thanks

[ALUMINUMINUM]

Mimiandrews, Thanks for the link, It's so interesting. Cant' believe that Hollywood hasn't yet romanticized this dramatic story to the level of "Titanic" And "Castaway"...

[66Overlander]

I will try to answer some of your questions, but clearly do not have all of the answers. Most of my knowledge on this topic comes from John Long's book and personal discussions with Dale "Pee Wee" Schwamborn.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

Actually, I was careful NOT to say rebadged Bowlus. “re-badged the Bowlus design as an Airstream” is what I said. Wasn't Byam selling Do-It-Yourself wood-framed torpedo plans and kits before the Bowlus?

According to the best information I have, Wally was building and selling actual wood and masonite trailers by 1931. The famous article with the trailer plans that some seem to indicate occurred before he sold trailers was likely published later, in 1937 or 1938 in Popular Mechanics, or a similar magazine (Dale Schwamborn may have a copy, but I don't). I suppose there could have been an earlier magazine ad for trailer plans, but I know of no specific reference to an earlier magazine. I suspect that the trailer plans helped supplement Wally's income if trailer sales were slow. This is an area that could use more research.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

I've long wanted to understand the transitional relationship of Bowlus to Airstream. I've been to Henderson, toured the old and new trailers, and chatted with the Bowlus folks, John and Helena.

Has a detailed, true account of the Bowlus/Airstream transition ever been researched or written? All I find is the repeated simplistic story that Bowlus hired Byam to manage sales and marketing. One year later, Bowlus Trailers went bankrupt, Byam bought the tooling and material at auction, and rehired the fabricators.

The best written account that I am aware of is in John Long's book Bowlus Trailers - The Origin of the Species. It does NOT state that Hawley Bowlus hired Wally to manage sales & marketing, but on page 69 and again on page 71, Ruth Bowlus claims that in 1935 Wally sold Bowlus trailers on his sales lot along side his own Airstream trailers. These two pages tell the story of how the aluminum Airstream Clipper was inspired by the Bowlus, but were actually built at the same time in 1936 factories 25 miles apart. Supposedly, in late 1935 Wally asked Hawley Bowlus if he could use a similar riveted technique, and Hawley replied that he was powerless to stop him, since Bowlus had no patents. The story also indicates that the first aluminum Airstream Clipper was produced in January 1936, while the Bowlus Sheriff Sale took place in February 1936, so it is clear that Airstream did not buy out Bowlus before introducing the Clipper, though I suppose he could have subsequently bought some tooling or supplies from Bowlus at that sale.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

Was Byam working for, and competing with Bowlus simultaneously?

It seems that Wally was selling aluminum Bowlus trailers and his own wood and masonite trailers at the same time on the same lot. Since aluminum Airstream Clippers were supposedly only made to order, it does not seem that one of them would have been on a lot along side a Bowlus. We also do not know if Wally was still selling Bowlus trailers in 1936.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

The remarkable change was Byam moved the entry from front to side. So yes, they are different, but looks to me that my Airstream evolved from Bowlus' Aircraft design, and not the Byam wood-framed torpedo kit. I think it's fair to say that Airstream, Streamline, Silver Streak, Avion, and Spartan all follow Bowlus' design.

Yes and no. The riveted exterior skin was clearly inspired by Bowlus. The relocation of the door to the side of the trailer improved functionality. The biggest and most important change, though, was actually beneath the skin. Bowlus used a fully welded tubular frame that was expensive and time consuming to construct. This made the Bolwus trailers full monocoques.

The Airstream Clipper was a semi-monocoque contstruction, having a riveted aluminum body attached to a wooden floor and a steel frame below the floor, a technique that Airstream still uses today and a technique that was likely used by all of the riveted aluminum trailer brands that followed (Curtis-Wright, Silver Streak, Streamline, Avion, etc.). Wally's changes made the trailer easier, faster, and less expensive to build. This could make them more affordable than the original Bowlus trailers. This is the MOST SIGNIFICANT change that Wally made.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

Was Hawley Bowlus glad to be out of the trailer designing business?

Who knows, but I can say that no one likes to fail at anything they try.

Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM

So Sorry to derail this thread.

We now return you to a discussion of the aluminum used in Amelia Earhart's plane.

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by freeman_61

Aluminum Airstreams built before 1939 therefore are potential source to see how Alcoa was stamping the aluminum in that period, so if anyone has any photos taken during restorations it would be a great help.

Check out this thread: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f54/...per-42302.html

The Clipper was titled as a 1939 model, but they acknowledge that it could have been built earlier. If you contact the poster, maybe they have some better photos they could send you.