Corrosion problems with new Airstreams

[mswartz]

TimeMachine,

Sorry to hear of your problems. Have you put up any pictures of your Safari? I'd be interested in how the filiform corrosion looks.

My own 2001 Bambi, for which I've posted corrosion pictures several years ago, has not had the filiform corrosion progress further since 2006.

I believe 2air's comments about the cosmetic nature of the problem are well founded. The filiform corrosion on Airstreams can look bad and is a big disappointment on mine, to say the least, but I think it is generally accepted in the metallurgical engineering community that, for the thicknesses of the aluminum used on the Airstream skins, it cannot lead to structural failure of the sheet. I would therefore completely agree that it is only a cosmetic material issue.

Of course, presence of filiform corrosion can and should affect the valuation of a trailer. It becomes a financial issue at sale time. I'd choose a trailer without it if I had the chance... but I'm not getting rid of mine because it does have it. I see no need to.

Presence of filiform corrosion is not an accurate reflection of the owners' diligent maintenance. Rather it is a common issue with any coated aluminum (and some other metals) when exposed to moisture and chlorides.

Most types of coated aluminum are susceptible to filiform corrosion from environmental salts. The magnesium and calcium chloride used in de-icing road surfaces, and which persist along roadways long after the freezing season pass, are very agressive in promoting filiform corrosion. These are unavoidable facts of life for our trailers.

This is not a new, dramatic problem in the materials industry. The process of filiform corrosion formation is well known and extensively studied, especially for aircraft and architectural uses. It is known to occur with all aluminum alloys and organic coatings when exposed to moisture and chlorides. Some inorganic coatings- which would not provide the classic aluminum finish Airstream is known for- are more effective than clear organic coatings in delaying the progression of filiform corrosion, but apparently no coating is known which is completely effective at blocking filiform corrosion.

Simply do a google search with a phrase such as "research on filiform corrosion" to see some of the academic and commercial research.

From my research on the matter and discussions with people having experience in materials, metalforming and maintenance of coated surfaces, I concluded that filiform corrosion was likely to form on my trailer no matter how carefully Alcoa and Airstream prepared and manufactured the product.

I also concluded that it is also up to me to take reasonable steps to understand the process and to minimize the chance of formation and the growth of exisxting filiform corrosion. These are what I would call my ownership maintenance responsibilities.

I found a product used in the aircraft industry (ACF-50, which has been discussed on this and other threads) that has worked to control the growth and formation of more corrosion on my trailer for the past three years. There are other, similar products and these have also been debated in this forum.

Certainly I wish this would not happen. But I know now that it is not reasonable to expect that filiform corrosion will never happen on the coated aluminum surface of my 2001 Bambi.

Consequently, I don't hold Airstream or Alcoa responsible for the filiform corrosion that I have- it simply comes with ownership of the product- whether or not I knew it at the time. To many Airstream owners such as myself, this has been my first personal experience with such corrosion. I now know that I could have found that out if I had done the research before purchase. Not likely that I would have looked, but the information was certainly out there. So in my case, 'caveat emptor.'

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by mswartz

TimeMachine,

I also concluded that it is also up to me to take reasonable steps to understand the process and to minimize the chance of formation and the growth of exisxting filiform corrosion. These are what I would call my ownership maintenance responsibilities.

.'

mswartz,

Thank you for your input, however, I respectfully disagree with your perspective as to responsibility. I have posted pictures in the past, as well as others, and the corrosion on my AS has continued to grow rapidly. I understand the technical issues and the alternatives reviewed to resolve the problem.

I feel confident that if you examined my specific unit you may in fact change your opinion. Also, if you knew me, you would know that I am not one to neglect responsible maintenance of anything (I wash and wax the AS just as the factory recommends)......this has nothing to do with maintenance. This is about a manufacturing/assembly process that is damaging the protective coating of the AS skin allowing caustic intrusion and accelerated corrosion.

Do you really think it is an owner's responsibility to repair corrosion on an aluminum panel on an Airstream that is less than two years old?

[mswartz]

TimeMachine,

Sorry that I have not seen your pictures, but I am sure they show a serious problem.

The fact that my, your and others trailers have filiform corrosion is not something for which I blame Airstream or Alcoa.

We can disagree on this point, but I think that it is probable Airstream and Alcoa are exercising reasonable diligence in the handling, preparation and fabrication of the coated aluminum, consistent with industry practice.

The challenge to Airstream, to me and to others is to ask 'what should be done differently to avoid filiform corrosion?'

Your last post says "this is about a manufacturing/assembly process that is damaging the protective coating of the AS skin allowing caustic intrusion and accelerated corrosion."

What evidence is there that Airstream is not properly handling the materials? The mere presence of corrosion is not, by itself, evidence of a defective process. One would have to show that a better process and/or material exists and that Airstream has not used that process or material.

The fabrication and forming process makes numerous breaks in the coated surface from rivet holes and panel cuts to create many ingress points for moisture. There will always be such entry points. Has anyone found information on how to treat such points prior to asssembly to seal them? I've searched, but have not found any.

I've looked sporadically for several years but I cannot find another vendor of coated aluminum, another manufacturer of trailers using similar materials, or published literature or research which shows a way to avoid filiform corrosion.

Please, if someone has this information, get it out onto the forum.

If Airstream has explicitly disclaimed corrosion damage as a warranty item, and I signed that purchase order with that disclamer, then repair of that corrosion damage is up to me.

I am not an attorney, so the following is purely speculation. Possibly a legal case can be made against Airstream and/or Alcoa if either intentionally misled customers, provided false information, or did not exercise reasonable diligence in their processes as should be expected of any ongoing experienced business.

My personal experience with Airstream is that they have been open, honest and willing to discuss my problems with me. From what I have experienced, visiting the factory, discussing the issue with their personnel, I believe that they are likely doing what any reasonable manufacturer using this material would do in fabrication and assembly.

[lovingtahoe]

reading these posts makes me feel as if the filiform is inevitable if your trailer is on the coast. Has anyone had success in a coastal area, just applying walbernizer every couple of months? or do we need to go through a desalination rinse (read this from previous posts) as well as walbernize and the ac-50 stuff. any success stories? I have a new 2008 and now I'm bummed that this might be our plight.

[tpi]

I don't suggest my maintenance practices have any bearing on the corrosion, but seeing I have very little (two rivets with less than 1/4 inch filiform), and you asked-

1. Not been exposed to salted roads- I store trailer outdoors 15 miles from ocean.
2. A few nights at the immediate coast, but not weeks.
3. Washed in clear water no detergent.
4. Occasional Use of Meguiars Quick Detail. No Walbernize.
5. I keep the trailer and roof clean-wash it monthly.
6. ACF 50 or Boeshield on the 2 filiform areas.

[Gene]

I think Marshall states very well the argument A/S's lawyers may use in litigation. I don't know whether experts in the field would agree with him and expect some would, and some would not. If there are those kind of metals and coatings experts, they apparently haven't bought an Airstream or haven't found the Forum, or we'd know more. That's why the A/S owners who want to pursue this have to find the right people. I think Marshall's post is very informative for a certain point of view.

I have noticed that a lot of those with corrosion live in areas with there is a lot of salt, either on the roads or from the ocean. This is not always the case, however, and some live in the desert or elsewhere. I think ocean salt blows far from the coast and the salts used on roads persist for a long, long time after winter is over. I believe the company has the units towed from Ohio to the dealers, picking up road salt even if you live in Phoenix. Washing with tap water adds chlorine which bonds with pure salt to create table salt which is washed into the seams. I have no idea how much all this matters, but someone has to figure out how much it does—and more importantly, how much should the company have known about the problem.

If there is no better way to coat the trailer and have it look like aluminum, that doesn't mean Airstream is off the hook. They could have warned people. They could offer a trailer without clear coat and simply wax it—maybe that would work better. There seem to be fewer problems before A/S changed the coating around 1999 or so, so there's a fact question there. They could paint them, but maybe no one would buy them. Maybe, as has been suggested, bright colors would attract new buyers. There are so many unanswered questions and so much conjecture that we are beating this to death until we get expert analysis.

Gene

[lovingtahoe]

tpi,
Thanks for the info. Do you not like the Walbernize product? Roman would like to leave (which every time hie suggests it I point to this thread with a squinched face) our Airstream in Encinitas for MONTHS at a time because he would get free parking at a friends. Rather park it somewhere in Tahoe or Carson City (dryer climates). So, I am trying to prepare in case I lose the battle.

[2airishuman]

hi gene

i agree mshwarz has put it well and agree with his excellent summary.

most of what u are posting is reasonable too...

but...

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

...There seem to be fewer problems before A/S changed the coating around 1999 or so, so there's a fact question there. ...

sorry this isn't correct.

from a % of production basis we don't have a clue about few or many...

and ALL of the prior finishes have had issues (paint the least)

i've posted these other problems (peeling, cracking, corrosion) and so have many others...

but you'll need to read the many other threads on surface/finish issues to get a basic appreciation of this...

or visit with folks who've owned plasti-coated units when new or as they aged.

i've now seen MANY older trailers in the snow/ice belt with NEW surface corrosion issues...

it's my view now that virtually every aluminum trailer ever produced is a risk from the new road salts....

with one form of corrosion or another...

a/s has changed aluminum panel compositions over the years so the problems vary by panel...

and again a/s has been dealing with surface issues (and us owners) for decades.

but we owners weren't able to 'connect' with each other (except camping, at rallies and in the club) as we now can...

the finishes prior to the alcoa surface (excluding paint) were virtually guaranteed to peel in 5-7 years on some units.

this problem got worse as a/s reformulated the plasticoat for environmental reasons...

and the a/s factory application suffered from seasonal variations and 'craftsman' issues, resulting in much LESS uniformity.

what IS different NOW is that the older finish could be reapplied by select vendors and still can be.

the alcoa finish cannot be reapplied to panels...


...livingtahoe....

there is an ENTIRE subforum on cleaning, waxing and polishing, check it out.

and LOOK in your owners manual, which suggests ANY quality auto wax will work.

i consider the walbern' to be an inferior product, some here like it.

use whatever YOU (or your waxer man) like to apply on cars/trucks...

but i too like tpi's approach and product selection.


cheers
2air'

[lewster]

You all know that I'm not an attorney , but I just had the opportunity to work on a MoHo belonging to one who happens to specialize in product liability law and class-action law suits.

Being an RVer, he was most receptive to the basics that I told him about the fiiform problems we are experiencing. I basically had a free consultation (as I was writing HIS bill for a change )

Anyway, his point was that before you can expect any type of results or even get an attorney to look at the case, you have to quantify the problem. This does not mean a long list of owners with testimonials.......but rather, cold hard facts. He suggested consulting with a firm in Annapolis, MD called Forensic Engineers.

He said that he has used them in the past with excellent results.

If you are serious about a class-action, this would be the first step. He also said that he might be interested in looking into this further.

Just a thought!

[ROBERT CROSS]

I've posted on other threads our corrosion concerns.

If Pictures or words are needed let us know!!

Getting filiform all over the end caps now also.

I'll follow this thread closely.


Bob

[mswartz]

May I suggest to the forum administrator that the corrosion topic is of enough significance to warrant its own sub-forum? There seem to be enough interested participants, and the discussions could break into additional sub-forums on corrosion research, repair methods, common concerns, etc.

[Silvertwinkie]

Again, anyone interested in participating in this beyond the forums, please PM either TimeMachine or myself the following info:

Name
Address
Phone
email
VIN
Year/model
and, specific details on the issue(s) you've had, where the problem is, etc

Additionally, it would be helpful if you also included what you do to clean and wax your Airstream, as well as how often and what other steps the factory has given you to solve and/or slow the problem.

Once we have this specific info, we can include your data with ours and we can communicate offline to share what the next course of action is......

As of right now, it's time to either get really on board with this and get a seat, or step off the bus. To do this, we'll need a bit more specifics (as outlined above) that I myself would want on the open forum. If interested, please share this info with either TimeMachine or myself, we will complie it and include you in the next step. Without the PM sent to one of us with the needed data which confirms your willingness to participate, it's just a forum post in which no inclusion will take place.

[mswartz]

It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches.

Some on the forum have chosen to look into a legal approach. If an adversarial approach is taken toward Airstream on this matter, what will be gained, and what will be lost?

One thing that will likely be lost is open, reasonable communications on this matter with the company and its vendors. How does that help?

And again, I ask, does anyone know of any better procedure, practice or material that would have prevented filform corrosion, even on relatively new units?

And if a better approach cannot be demonstrated as having been available, then can a case be made that there is fault or liability?

I look forward to seeing any evidence that there was something different that could be done. I haven't found it yet, and using the MIT Library (for which I have access through my work) to look into this, I have gone over several of the relevant ASTM procedures, various metallurgical journals and references, and have discussed the problem with several engineers, unconnected with Airstream, Alcoa or other vendors. Nothing I've found yet shows better methods. I'm still looking.

Please, post any web links to such information. We'll all be better off.

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by mswartz

It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches.

Some on the forum have chosen to look into a legal approach. If an adversarial approach is taken toward Airstream on this matter, what will be gained, and what will be lost?

Marshall,

I believe you have missed the basic issue and the direction of our discussion. The majority of concerned owners are looking for a resolution to the corrosion on our Airstreams and believe that Airstream (The Company) has the primary responsibility to correct the deficiency.

You have stated that the owner has the responsibilty via maintenance and that Airstream is not responsible for the corrosion.....you are in the minority, but certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter

It is true that posts have included the discussion of legal action, but clearly, that is a last resort, and to my knowledge, no legal action has been offered nor implemented. There are other methods far more effective in dealing with warranty issues of manufacturers.

lewster,

Thanks for the info. You have been one of those who have worked dilligently to solve this problem through technical and hands-on research. We have all learned from your experience. Thinking your information was useful, I relayed everything you had posted and discussed with me about potential solutions to the corrosion to my Airstream service center, including use of Corrosion X. The owner of the service center told me that "Airstream had never heard of Corrosion X" and further stated they know of no solution that they would perform under warranty. That is hard to believe considering the detailed posts you have included in this thread and elsewhere. I would hope that it was just a matter of communication, and not the other conclusion one might consider from this response.

The suggestion to professionally quantify the problem is excellent as is the referred company.

To All,

Silvertwinkie has led this crusade for all of us with this problem. I for one am going to support his effort to gather the owners, quantify the issue, develop a cohesive plan for a resolution, and then execute the plan.

I have no desire to continue to banter about this subject. If you don't believe this is a problem or if you don't believe that Airstream Corporate needs to help solve the problem, please go start another thread. If you are interested in a resolution and are tired of talking about it, please send Silvertwinkie the requested info listed in his previous post.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

John

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

...If you don't believe this is a problem or if you don't believe that Airstream Corporate needs to help solve the problem, please go start another thread...

easy cowboy, as long as folks are POLITE, anyone can post into this thread...

with useful (or not) info, opinions and so on....

seems you're interpreting data and the info contained here in some special way.

that's fine we all see these things from a unique perspective.

again applying terms like 'most, many, few, all' need backing of some sort...

the following is a great summary of where some of are and what some of us want from this thread...

Originally Posted by mswartz

It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches....

...I look forward to seeing any evidence that there was something different that could be done. I haven't found it yet, and using the MIT Library (for which I have access through my work) to look into this, I have gone over several of the relevant ASTM procedures, various metallurgical journals and references, and have discussed the problem with several engineers, unconnected with Airstream, Alcoa or other vendors. Nothing I've found yet shows better methods. I'm still looking.

Please, post any web links to such information. We'll all be better off.

now the problem with #3 above and some posts IN this thread...

is that this issue/process/action becomes a VENDOR DISPUTE, or very nearly so...

and my reading of the policy page is vendor disputes are NOT to be handled on the forums...

the suggestion to contact each other privately about that aspect is appropirate,

while keeping all of us updated on the process as it corrodes...

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

i see that some states are now adding beet juice to the road salt formulations they use...

since sugar has some of the same deicing properties as salt...

More beet juice, hold the salt

roads will get beet juice mix

this will cut down on the amount of the more aggressive salts used...

perhaps this action will limit corrosion, the early reports are favorable...

but will they get cavities instead?

next they'll wanna spray the roadways with vodka and tabasco!


cheers
2air'

[mswartz]

In the spirit of open research, should others be interested, here is a list I maintain of some web links on aluminum corrosion research.

Feel free to add any...

================================
Links to aluminum corrosion research, esp. for filiform corrosion studies.
List updated 23 Jan 2008.
Maintained by Marshall Swartz, email: mswartz@whoi.edu.

NASA Kennedy Space Center - Corrosion Technology Laboratory (NASA CTL):
Publications:
publications
NASA Corrosion Control and Treatment Manual:
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/pubs/tm584c.pdf
NASA Standard for Protective Coatings...
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/pubs/nasa-std-5008a.pdf
NASA Corrosion technology links:
KSC Corrosion Technology Laboratory -- Links

Ohio State University Fontana Corrosion Center:
FONTANA CORROSION CENTER
See especially:
Current Research: Fontana Corrosion Center Research
Publications (by year): Fontana Corrosion Center Publications
Links: Fontana Corrosion Center Staff

De-icing salt information:
www.moly.imoa.info/FileLib/DeicingSalt.pdf
doc created 08 Oct 2007.

www.autoaluminum.org/downloads/corpub.pdf
doc created 28 Feb 2002.

Corrosion Protection practices for automotive repair industry
www.i-car.com/pdf/upcr/procedures/cp/cp01a.pdf
doc created 25 Aug 1998.

German Window association discussion on architectural issues with filiform corrosion of aluminum:
www.window.de/pdf/al01e.pdf
doc created 13 Jun 2001.

Boeing Corp Technotes
www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environmental/TechNotes/TechNotes2000-02.pdf
doc created 01 Mar 2001

Protection of aluminum alloys from filiform corrosion using low temperature plasma treatment.
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0300944005000056.html

Corrosion Clinic:
Different Types of Corrosion: Filiform Corrosion or Underfilm Corrosion - Its Causes and Prevention

Journal of Corrosion Science and Engineering:
JCSE Volume 2 Paper 36
submitted 13 Sept 1999.

Boeing Corp: Design for corrosion:
Aero 07 - Design for Corrosion

NST (National Surface Treatment) Center for NAVY and DOD:
What is Corrosion

NST Mitigating the effects of soluble salt:
http://www.nstcenter.com/docs/PDFs/T...ble%20Salt.pdf

ASTM Standard Guide for Assessing Filiform Corrosion Resistance, Article D2803.
ASTM D2803-03 Standard Guide for Testing Filiform Corrosion Resistance of Organic Coatings on Metal

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

easy cowboy, as long as folks are POLITE, anyone can post into this thread...

cheers
2air'

2air,

I did ask politely, I did say please. And you are right, the forum is for everybody to offer their opinion and advice, however, the thread starter, Silvertwinkie, was asking for support to get Airstream to acknowledge the problem and do something about it for the owners who have recently purchased units.

If you don't see me posting on this thread, that is because I will be doing something about the corrosion on my Airstream besides talking about it, or rallying, one of the two.

cowboy time

[Gene]

I stand corrected on surface coatings Joe.

I hope litigation isn't the only solution. It's ugly, expensive and a last resort and something I tried to talk clients out of many times. Sometimes the threat works, sometimes not. It like diplomacy and war—the latter is the potential that usually leads to settlement. No one enjoys "litigation anxiety".

Lew's lawyer customer is correct—you've got to have your facts lined up though it's usually the lawyer who sets up the engineering firm (we know who we like). There are lots of such firms, some good, some not. Check references and specific expertise.

Gene

[Al - K4GLU]

2008 models are out and Airstream has not corrected the corrosion problem. Three weeks ago I was at Bates RV near Tampa. He has a large number of Airstream's on his lot. I didn't look at all of them - maybe about a dozen - but at least 75% of the units I looked at had corrosion on at least one of the curved panels. Some of the trailers he took to the Tampa RV Show also had it.

Today I went to the RV show in Ocala. Sanders RV from Alachua was there and they had 5 units - all 2008. On three of them there was corrosion on at least one of the curved panels including a 17' Sport - the first Sport I've seen it on.

Anyone who orders a 2008 should give it a very close examination before accepting delivery from their dealer.