Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-17-2017, 08:42 AM   #21
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,904
Hi

Ok, so back to wire nuts.

First step is to carefully read *what* gauges of wire (and how many pieces) they are rated for. Both items are specified. Finding those specs may not be at all easy. Go outside the rated range and number of things may or may not work. There is both a minimum and a maximum amount of wire for each color wire nut. The numbers vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Stick with what the guy who designed it says it works for.

Second step is to pay a bit more for your wire nuts. "Uncle Bob's Finest" is not the brand you want to buy Stick with one brand. Don't have brand A and brand B in your tool kit. That is a recipe for disaster. Get the whole range of sizes. You do *not* want to be stuck without the correct size. Only digging up the numbers for one brand is much easier. "Uncle Bob's Finest" may not have things spec'd very well.

Third step is to read the directions (yes I am told they *do* come with directions). Strip length / do or do not twist (don't) all matter a lot. It's tempting to re-use one - don't. It's also tempting to re-do a connection without straightening the wires (remember the note on don't twist ...). Resist the urge to put 25 wires in one wire nut. It may *look* like it will work, it's not a good idea.

Fourth step is to practice a bit. Grab some random wire and try your favorite brand of wire nut. Find out how much torque they really need (yes, that much ... wow !!). Pull a few apart and take a look at the wires. Do some pull tests. Do some twist / bend tests. There is a bit of technique involved in using them.

Wire nuts are for *electrical* connection. Mechanical connection is a very different thing. If the set of wires will be under strain, you need to take care of that. Cable ties are one way, there are others (tape..). They also are *not* for wet / damp areas. Finally, they are not for ground wires.

Wire nuts look easy / simple. They are more complicated than they look. Used incorrectly, they are a problem in a normal home. They are doubly a problem in an RV if you are not careful. Good ones, used correctly can work quite well.

No, I'm not some sort of pro who always gets every single connection right on the first (second ... errr ... third) try. I *do* have to go back and re-do stuff from time to time. It's not easy to admit your error, I realize that. Take care and do it right.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2017, 11:13 AM   #22
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar
 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,720
Plain and simple: Wire Nuts are NOT for anything which moves, vibrates, or otherwise disturbed from static position where it is unlikely to be disturbed. They are intended for a cheap and dirty way to connect wires in an attic or behind a wall in a house where a workman wants a fast/cheap/dirty/get-the-job-done-and-leave solution.

In the "good ol days" my Father worked as an electrician he twisted wires together, soldered them, then taped them with friction-tape and finished with rubber tape. This was done inside a metal box which was then closed with a cover. Wire nuts (which were actually a cheaper replacement for crimped wire connectors that had replaced soldered-joints) were frowned upon by him when they finally hit the workplace, but jobs were low-bid by the contractor and speed was paramount. The best wirenuts have a threaded metal-insert inside which is what "grabs" the wire... the plastic outer is merely a covering. Many cheap/Chinese brands are all plastic...and are the worst of the worst.

Wire nuts have no place in a vehicle of any kind. (Neither does Romex style of wiring but Airstream gets away with it.)
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2017, 01:39 PM   #23
Rivet Master
 
DavidsonOverlander's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton , ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,067
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
Wire nuts have no place in a vehicle of any kind. (Neither does Romex style of wiring but Airstream gets away with it.)
So just to clarify, while what you say makes sense to minimize risk and wiring failures, it's opinion, not regulation. Correct?
__________________
1974 Sovereign
2005 F-350 SRW 4x4 crew cab long box
TAC ON-5

1965 Avion C-10 Truck Camper (65avion.home.blog)
DavidsonOverlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2017, 04:39 PM   #24
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar
 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander View Post
So just to clarify, while what you say makes sense to minimize risk and wiring failures, it's opinion, not regulation. Correct?
Yes... I was stating an opinion based upon the training I received as an electrician's apprentice in IBEW and Nat'l Electrical Code (Nat'l Fire Protection Assn). That training was based upon "Good Operating Practices" condoned by various electrical organizations. My opinion is also based upon Federal Aviation Regulations for aircraft, which holds the same position. As for your RV...no one is going to arrest or cite you for using whatever you choose.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 07:46 AM   #25
Rivet Master
 
prairieschooner's Avatar
 
1958 18' "Footer"
Idyllwild , California
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 612
do NOT use Wire Nuts! ABYC E11 states that they are not to be used. It also states that a connection in a conductor is not to be made with solder alone.

Yes your trailer is not a boat but is subjected to vibration and so wire fatigue. If you are going to upgrade all to "Marine Grade" then upgrade all!
__________________
Steve
1958 California Built 18' #18-4092
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f106...on-122678.html
prairieschooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 08:02 AM   #26
Rivet Master
 
Troutboy's Avatar

 
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Parker , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,651
Images: 1
Set Screw Wire Nut vs. Crimp

There is a lack of regulation and clarity in the RV industry. Best practice and safest is to follow ABYC if you can. That is the marine code. I wish the RV industry would adopt ABYC or be forced to follow those guidelines.

I did a solar upgrade and did my best to meet ABYC. But with a new AS, no way to go back through the AS and replace all the Romex.

Use stranded wire rated for the load, proper fusing, crimp connectors, and the right crimping tools. I spent $300 on Ancor crimp tools, a fraction of the cost for my major solar upgrade. Don't skimp on this part, poor crimps/connections are a leading cause of performance issues and even fires. I'm not an expert by all means, but this is what I learned from experts over the past 6 months of researching and implementing this project.

Don't put your rig at risk to save a few bucks on tools and the proper materials.
__________________
Thanks,
Troutboy
Troutboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 09:09 AM   #27
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troutboy View Post
There is a lack of regulation and clarity in the RV industry. Best practice and safest is to follow ABYC if you can. That is the marine code. I wish the RV industry would adopt ABYC or be forced to follow those guidelines.

I did a solar upgrade and did my best to meet ABYC. But with a new AS, no way to go back through the AS and replace all the Romex.

Use stranded wire rated for the load, proper fusing, crimp connectors, and the right crimping tools. I spent $300 on Ancor crimp tools, a fraction of the cost for my major solar upgrade. Don't skimp on this part, poor crimps/connections are a leading cause of performance issues and even fires. I'm not an expert by all means, but this is what I learned from experts over the past 6 months of researching and implementing this project.

Don't put your rig at risk to save a few bucks on tools and the proper materials.
RIGHT ON!!!!
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 09:55 AM   #28
Rivet Master
 
DavidsonOverlander's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton , ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,067
Images: 4
For those of you who have a crimper, which specific model would you recommend?
I've seen mention of Ancor, Thomas & Betts and Belden in this thread. When I search online for those tools there is quite a range available.
Currently I have a 7" Snap-on Wire Stripper/Crimper/Cutter which I use when I crimp connectors.
__________________
1974 Sovereign
2005 F-350 SRW 4x4 crew cab long box
TAC ON-5

1965 Avion C-10 Truck Camper (65avion.home.blog)
DavidsonOverlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 10:49 AM   #29
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,411
Since it is not a ratcheting crimper, these type tools have trouble getting consistent crimps.
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 10:42 PM   #30
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,370
The almost foolproof wiring combination is to buy both crimper AND crimps from the same company. There better quality ones (like ANCOR) are manufactured to create perfect crimps from their crimp products as the specifications of the crimps and crimp tools match.

If you do a lot of crimps (like me) I have an small arsenal of crimping tools that I use regularly, depending on the application and the crimp manufacturer. My go to crimpers are a pair of Greenlee electric crimpers that use an internal force gauge to determine the proper crimp pressure.

They are AWESOME.......but so is the price. They sure do make doing up to several hundred crimps a day a relatively painless process though!!!
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 10:51 PM   #31
Rivet Master
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB Eddie Bauer
2013 25' FB Eddie Bauer
2012 20' Flying Cloud
Small Town , *** Big Sky Country ***Western Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by gklott View Post
i've been looking for a small, vibration resistant ul-listed wire connector for 12 awg stranded marine wire. Am installing the wire for the ac power system. Looking for a solution to connect 2, 3, or 4 conductors.

Everyone seems to shun away from ideal in-sure and even the better winged wire nuts.

From reading the specifications, the ideal 30-222 set-screw wire connector seems like an excellent, robust solution, $0.75 ea.

Otherwise, the ideal 2006s crimp connector with the ideal 2007 nylon snap-on insulator would be a cheaper alternative, and about $0.40 ea.

However, to achieve the ul-listed condition, i would need to use something like the ideal c24 crimp tool, which is about $60. I have a klein journeyman j1005, but it doesn't seem large enough. So the crimp connector might cost about the same.

Does anyone have experience using the set-screw connector? Which do you use?

73/gus
s-o-l-d-e-r
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 05:54 AM   #32
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster View Post
The almost foolproof wiring combination is to buy both crimper AND crimps from the same company. There better quality ones (like ANCOR) are manufactured to create perfect crimps from their crimp products as the specifications of the crimps and crimp tools match.

If you do a lot of crimps (like me) I have an small arsenal of crimping tools that I use regularly, depending on the application and the crimp manufacturer. My go to crimpers are a pair of Greenlee electric crimpers that use an internal force gauge to determine the proper crimp pressure.

They are AWESOME.......but so is the price. They sure do make doing up to several hundred crimps a day a relatively painless process though!!!
Hi

The problem is that not all crimp tools are made equally well. The same goes for the crimps. Like you, I have a variety of tools and connectors that go with them. They range from utterly useless / awful to pretty much perfect. The quality sort of correlates with the price. There are some really bogus exceptions to that.

As mentioned earlier, ratchet style tools are usually better. That's not a perfect metric, but it's a start. There are exotic things like hydraulic tools, if you get into that category ... yikes !!. There are motor driven tools that may floor mount in a factory, again ... yikes !!. Some connectors are sold 99% into the production assembly (think floor mount tools) market. Their hand crimpers are an afterthought. In some cases you simply can't win.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 07:16 AM   #33
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 583
Images: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr.austin View Post
The wire nut with the set screw will vibrate loose because the set screw puts too much force on the wire and the wire extrudes over time and becomes loose.
A set-screw wire nut is a pressure-type connector, just like a crimp connector, under UL 486C. Am curious why the set screw, when properly placed and torqued per manufacturer specifications, will result in a wire being extruded any more than an overly-compressed crimp?

While allowed by the NEC, ABYC E-11 11.14.3.5 seems to prohibit the use of many UL 486C listed set screw connectors.

E-11 11.14.3.8 and 11.14.3.3 require a tensile strength test for crimp pressure connectors, which for #12 is 35 lbs. I am not sure how you measure this for connectors where the number of conductors can vary from 2 to 4.

I use a Klein 57032 torque screwdriver for all screw-type electrical connections. I do not have a "calibrated" crimp tool, so I must rely upon the crimper to always work properly, regardless of the number of wires in the crimp.

Seems from all the comments, the key is to properly select and install the UL-listed, vibration-resistant connector.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2017, 07:30 AM   #34
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 8,904
Hi

Here's another wrinkle in all this:

Wire nuts are used in a normal install both as a connection and as a connector. When you go to a crimp, you loose the connector feature. Yes that's a bit obscure.

When I hook up the fan in the range hood, it goes in and all is fine. It goes out some day and needs replacing. I unscrew the wire nut, pop out a few screws and swap in a new one. With crimps (when properly used) I have an independent connector for the fan. I unplug it from that connector and swap it out. Yes, often those connectors have crimp in contacts. They are the reason I have stacks and stacks of crimp tools and all sorts of weird contacts to go with a near infinite variety of connectors.

Obviously, you don't need to pull every single thing you ever wire up. Connectors are not needed at every single junction. You do need to thing it through if you are going to use crimps. Cutting and re-crimping is *not* the right way to do it ....

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2017, 06:37 AM   #35
3 Rivet Member
 
gr.austin's Avatar
 
2009 27' FB Classic
Sioux Falls , South Dakota
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 104
The answer to your question is the controlled cycle crimping tool verses the uncontrolled stress of the set screw. The set screw concentrates the pressure on a single point making the stresses very high at that one point causing extruding. The controlled cycle crimping tool puts a more uniform stress around the entire circumference of the crimp barrel reducing the extruding. Of course everything must be done by the book. The controlled cycle crimping tool can produce quality crimps time after time. The set screw is much more subjective to the feeling of the installer. Even if a torque wrench is used it just isnít as reliable due to the quality of the set screw, nut, dirt in the threads mis-location of the wires in the wirenut. The controlled cycle tool isnít measuring forces it is measuring distances. Being able to measure these distances over and over and get the same answer is why the crimp connection when properly installed with the proper tool is the best. In short in takes the human element out of the process reducing the poor quality to a minimum.
After all this is said, the other types of wire terminations all can be made to work satisfactorily with qualified personnel. What is being discussed is a foolproof method done by a non-qualified mechanic. Remember, we are not saying other methods wonít work or be fine but the crimp method is the absolute best for the qualified and non-qualified installer.


Gary Austin
301-639-3490
gr.austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2017, 10:53 AM   #36
Rivet Master
 
gklott's Avatar

 
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 583
Images: 86
After trying different approaches, and practicing as suggested by many posts, I decided to use the Buchanan (Ideal) 2006S or 2011S copper crimp connectors with the matching 2007 or 2014 splice cap insulators. I have the Ideal C24 crimp tool, which is a 4-way crimp. Splices are in metal, grounded 4x4" junction boxes with solid covers with strain relief on all wires.

Thanks for the suggestions and comments.

73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
gklott is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PEX crimp vs. press on Sharkbite experiences idroba Fresh Water Systems 17 08-31-2011 09:15 AM
5V Crimp tinhutjohn Winterizing, Storage, Carports & Covers 8 01-11-2008 11:58 PM
PEX - Crimp or Flair-IT Dano57 Fresh Water Systems 16 01-27-2007 11:55 AM
water supply crimp ring Lido&Linda Airstream Motorhome Forums 6 10-23-2003 06:58 PM
Wire ,wire, oh wire can it be ? 69 Silverback Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 8 05-15-2003 11:09 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.