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Old 07-14-2020, 12:48 PM   #1
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Questions about solar panels for 23FB

We're buying a 2018 FC 23FB on consignment from a local dealer. It has two 6V AGM batteries, but no solar currently. I'd like to get 200-400W on the roof since we plan to do some boondocking. The dealer has offered to install 400W of GoPower panels for $2,800.

Questions:
1) Is this a fair price? Looks like I could get 2x 200W GoPower panels from e-Trailer for about $1,500. Does this mean they're charging $1,300 for labor, or are there other components they may be installing.
2) I I bought a Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor and a
Victron Energy BlueSolar MPPT 100/30 Charge Controller. Are these easy to install myself (I know next to nothing about solar/batteries), or should I have the dealer install them as well?

Thanks!
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:49 PM   #2
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Stop

You can, but you can do it later when you know what you need.

Solar is a snake pit. You need to do the research to understand what is needed. Factory parts may not be upgradable with other systems, so you need to plan and hitch your wagon to the systems that you will embrace in future ....

or ...... be willing to start over with new components .....
or ...... pick another option .... Look at suitcase solar - quick and easy - may work for you .....
or ...... a $500 generator gives you lots of power ..... no sun needed.

A fellow installed significant solar on his motorhome for $3000. However, no labor. That was all donated by friends. It is a reference point to consider.

Good luck with you new coach. Pat
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Old 07-14-2020, 03:50 PM   #3
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I found out that the dealer will also be installing a Go Power Charge Controller along with the panels as part of that $2,800 quote. I believe it is this one. I have read that MPPT controllers are better than PWM, but will this be sufficient?

If a Victron MPPT (which I already ordered, before I realized that the dealer is installing a charge controller) is significantly better, should I ask the dealer if they can install that instead of the Go Power unit they are installing?

Also, if I get a Goal Zero 1000 or 3000, do I need a separate charge controller? Can the GZ Yeti be used to charge the batteries in the AS, or is it better to just use that to charge phones, computers, cameras, etc.?
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:09 PM   #4
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I just got a special price from my dealer for a GoPower 200W Flexible Panel Kit with a 30 amp BT controller for just over 700 CDN. I have to install it myself but that's not a problem. I will probably hold off on getting this kit due to questions about the flexible panel longevity.

$2,800 for 2 panels seems a bit steep! Perhaps the price point on the 200W panels is greater. Did you look at 4 x 100W panels as a comparison?

I am all for free enterprise and I guess profit is required to keep the world turning!

PKI is spot on about waiting. Go out and see what sort of power you are using and plan accordingly.

Our plan is to skip the panels and just get lithium batteries and then use my older portable panels (about 250W of portable) to charge the batteries. This way we can build the system to match what we are using. The batteries will become the center point of our system. Then our goal will be to add enough solar to maintain the charge while still using the systems.

Good luck and welcome aboard!
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:17 PM   #5
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That sounds like a sensible approach.

At this point in my life, I'm able and willing to pay for convenience and time savings. DIY is not my thingówith some exceptions in areas that I really enjoy. So, although the markup on labor seems significant, it's worth it to me if the installation of the panels + charge controller would be challenging and involves puncturing the shell of the AS, which I understand that it does?

I'm glad you brought up lithium batteries. I'm trying to get a sense of where I get the most bang for the buck: more solar panels, or better batteries (lithium vs. AGM).

I'm considering the Goal Zero, but we're not planning to be full-timers and we don't even bring laptops on our camping trips (because we're trying to get away from them when we camp!). So I'm thinking 400W rooftop solar will be sufficient, plus a solar charger that we can use to recharge our phones.
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switters View Post
I found out that the dealer will also be installing a Go Power Charge Controller along with the panels as part of that $2,800 quote. I believe it is this one. I have read that MPPT controllers are better than PWM, but will this be sufficient?

If a Victron MPPT (which I already ordered, before I realized that the dealer is installing a charge controller) is significantly better, should I ask the dealer if they can install that instead of the Go Power unit they are installing?

Also, if I get a Goal Zero 1000 or 3000, do I need a separate charge controller? Can the GZ Yeti be used to charge the batteries in the AS, or is it better to just use that to charge phones, computers, cameras, etc.?
Using a solar generator is a great idea. I was looking at the Bluetti EB240. You just need to take your grey 30 amp cord and plug it into the Yeti and it will run everything just like being plugged into a fixed outlet. It will provide power to your 120V AC system which includes the battery charger. Keep in mind that those deep cycle batteries will be demanding. I would avoid the use of air conditioning, blow dryers, microwaves and electric kettles as they will draw a lot of the reserves in the Yeti. If you plan on using these electric devices, try them out to see what the affects are on the Yeti storage.

Check the recharge time for the Yeti as they might be a bit slow meaning that you will need to have the solar panels (if that is what you are charging it with) on for quite a while.

Check out the specs on the Goal Zero website. Also as a side note, these devices seem to in short supply or out of stock in many places.
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:33 PM   #7
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Your 2018 should have USB ports that run off the 12V DC for your phones. Between the 12V DC and propane you can run the water pump, water heater, fridge, stove top (not sure about the oven) furnace, Fantastic fans, interior lights, electric awning, electric jack and USB ports. Your stereo might even be 12V DC, The one we got is a car stereo in our 22FB.

The 120V AC is for things like your television, air con, battery charger, interior and exterior outlets, microwave, and maybe the oven??

Deciding on what you want to use while you are out there will certainly help you and it would only take a few trips to get accustomed to what you want to run.
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB_NB View Post
Your 2018 should have USB ports that run off the 12V DC for your phones. Between the 12V DC and propane you can run the water pump, water heater, fridge, stove top (not sure about the oven) furnace, Fantastic fans, interior lights, electric awning, electric jack and USB ports. Your stereo might even be 12V DC, The one we got is a car stereo in our 22FB.

The 120V AC is for things like your television, air con, battery charger, interior and exterior outlets, microwave, and maybe the oven??

Deciding on what you want to use while you are out there will certainly help you and it would only take a few trips to get accustomed to what you want to run.
We don't watch TV while camping, and can easily get by without the microwave. The oven runs on propane I think? Our current plan is to avoid boondocking in areas/at times of year where AC would be desirable. That means higher elevations or finding a spot with hookups during the summer months.
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Old 07-14-2020, 04:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by PB_NB View Post
Using a solar generator is a great idea. I was looking at the Bluetti EB240. You just need to take your grey 30 amp cord and plug it into the Yeti and it will run everything just like being plugged into a fixed outlet. It will provide power to your 120V AC system which includes the battery charger. Keep in mind that those deep cycle batteries will be demanding. I would avoid the use of air conditioning, blow dryers, microwaves and electric kettles as they will draw a lot of the reserves in the Yeti. If you plan on using these electric devices, try them out to see what the affects are on the Yeti storage.
I haven't bought the Yeti yet, and as you pointed out, they seem to be in short supply. The Bluetti EB240 looks like an interesting alternative. Seems significantly cheaper than the GZ Yeti: 2,400 Wh for $1,899 vs. 3075 Wh for $3k. Do you know if there are any significant differences? The Yeti does seem to have more ports.
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Old 07-14-2020, 05:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switters View Post
I haven't bought the Yeti yet, and as you pointed out, they seem to be in short supply. The Bluetti EB240 looks like an interesting alternative. Seems significantly cheaper than the GZ Yeti: 2,400 Wh for $1,899 vs. 3075 Wh for $3k. Do you know if there are any significant differences? The Yeti does seem to have more ports.
I think the biggest difference is the charge times. But the GZ has more storage so if all things are equal, it should take a bit longer.

We thought about having to babysit the GZ or Bluetti and panels for 15 hours each day! That would cut into hiking or kayaking time. (roof mounted panels deal with that).

On another note, your 2018 should be prewired for solar so if you have panels to put up there, Airstream already installed a port on the roof and one on the hitch A-frame to plug into. Ours is a Zamp plug which is probably the same on yours. I bought a cord that will allow me to plug my GoPower portable panel into the A-frame connection.

I know these prewired conditions are there but I think they are good for about 200W and then things change as those wires are small and will need to be upgraded.
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Old 07-14-2020, 05:18 PM   #11
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I think the biggest difference is the charge times. But the GZ has more storage so if all things are equal, it should take a bit longer.

We thought about having to babysit the GZ or Bluetti and panels for 15 hours each day! That would cut into hiking or kayaking time. (roof mounted panels deal with that).

On another note, your 2018 should be prewired for solar so if you have panels to put up there, Airstream already installed a port on the roof and one on the hitch A-frame to plug into. Ours is a Zamp plug which is probably the same on yours. I bought a cord that will allow me to plug my GoPower portable panel into the A-frame connection.

I know these prewired conditions are there but I think they are good for about 200W and then things change as those wires are small and will need to be upgraded.
Ah, that's good to know. So if I'm planning on 400W on the roof, then I could potentially get a 200W briefcase to plug into the A-frame connection for those times when I want more power and am willing to babysit the panels?

Like you, I don't love the idea of sitting around and doing thatówe'll be too busy hiking, biking, kayaking, etc. That's why I am leaning toward 400W on the roof as a starting place, and then only adding more via GZ/suitcases if necessary.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:42 PM   #12
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Questions about solar panels for 23FB

Iíve had go power on a previous trailer. Just some advice take it for what itís worth:

2,800 is a fair price for 4 fixed panels install including all materials and labor.

Do not mess with flexible panels. They are notorious for under performance and quick breakdown of materials. Hard panels are the way to go on an airstream.

Insist on a victron mppt smart controller. It is the gold standard. Size the controller for future panels.

I would recommend zamp panels over the go power panels. I love supporting Canadian goods but zamp are a little higher quality and slightly more efficient

Make sure you have 4 matching panels. Same size same output. Donít let the installer mix sizes and outputs. This reduces performance.

If the installer is unsing your 10GA pre-wire (ask) you will want a series-parallel setup for 400w. If the installer is going to run new 8 or 6AWG wire from the roof then go all parallel.

Insist on no mechanical fasteners for the panels (no screws)! If the installer looks at you funny with this request donít use them. The gold standard is to use 3M VHB tape + silkaflex for securing the panels to your roof. No need for 16 screw holes that will leak down the road.

Get a couple lithium 100ah batts and upgrade to a progressive dynamics lithium converter / charger - make the investment now if you really want to boondock some. You will thank yourself later.

Solar is a slippery slope but you are asking the right questions.... I wouldnít bother with less than 400w if you are paying for the install overhead anyways....

Finally - in the 2020 tax year here in the US you can file for (materials plus labor) a 26% federal solar tax credit (not a deduction - a credit). This is for everything on your bill - batteries, panels, controllers, wiring, labor, etc..... you will get 26% back. I got 30% in the 2018 tax year on my install which was awesome - paid for ~80 man hours of labor for my large project

So you will get some hard dollars back on the install cost..... basically pays for the majority of the labor expense. Why DIY when the government will subsidize a professional installation.....

I notice you are in Utah. Just my $0.02 but there are only a few true specialists in the US when it comes to solar and airstreams. You should consider calling Lew Farber who operates out of hood river, OR in the summers or AM solar who are also located in OR and operate at year round in their facility. Lew did my install and I made the 2-day drive from Denver... at a minimum you should speak with one or both.
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Old 07-15-2020, 06:24 AM   #13
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Great reply Wulfraat! Nothing more to add.
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Old 07-15-2020, 06:47 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfraat View Post
Iíve had go power on a previous trailer. Just some advice take it for what itís worth:

2,800 is a fair price for 4 fixed panels install including all materials and labor.

Do not mess with flexible panels. They are notorious for under performance and quick breakdown of materials. Hard panels are the way to go on an airstream.

Insist on a victron mppt smart controller. It is the gold standard. Size the controller for future panels.

I would recommend zamp panels over the go power panels. I love supporting Canadian goods but zamp are a little higher quality and slightly more efficient

Make sure you have 4 matching panels. Same size same output. Donít let the installer mix sizes and outputs. This reduces performance.

If the installer is unsing your 10GA pre-wire (ask) you will want a series-parallel setup for 400w. If the installer is going to run new 8 or 6AWG wire from the roof then go all parallel.

Insist on no mechanical fasteners for the panels (no screws)! If the installer looks at you funny with this request donít use them. The gold standard is to use 3M VHB tape + silkaflex for securing the panels to your roof. No need for 16 screw holes that will leak down the road.

Get a couple lithium 100ah batts and upgrade to a progressive dynamics lithium converter / charger - make the investment now if you really want to boondock some. You will thank yourself later.

Solar is a slippery slope but you are asking the right questions.... I wouldnít bother with less than 400w if you are paying for the install overhead anyways....

Finally - in the 2020 tax year here in the US you can file for (materials plus labor) a 26% federal solar tax credit (not a deduction - a credit). This is for everything on your bill - batteries, panels, controllers, wiring, labor, etc..... you will get 26% back. I got 30% in the 2018 tax year on my install which was awesome - paid for ~80 man hours of labor for my large project

So you will get some hard dollars back on the install cost..... basically pays for the majority of the labor expense. Why DIY when the government will subsidize a professional installation.....

I notice you are in Utah. Just my $0.02 but there are only a few true specialists in the US when it comes to solar and airstreams. You should consider calling Lew Farber who operates out of hood river, OR in the summers or AM solar who are also located in OR and operate at year round in their facility. Lew did my install and I made the 2-day drive from Denver... at a minimum you should speak with one or both.
This is so helpful, thank you! Two follow-up questions:

1) I was considering upgrading to lithium instead of getting a solar generator and suitcase (at least for now; I can always add those later), so glad to see I was on the right track. Do you have a lithium battery preference?

2) Is this the specific Progressive Dynamics charger/converter you recommend? "Progressive Dynamics PD9160ALV 12V Lithium Ion Battery Converter/Charger - 60 Amp"

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make the drive to OR for an install with either of the specialists. I will definitely speak to the installers at the dealer here in UT to go over the questions you raised.

Thanks again!
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:32 AM   #15
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I am going to get a couple of Lithium Batteries (either 2 x 100ah or 1 x 250 ah) first and use my portable panels. I am going to check with the battery manufacturer about the charger that they recommend. I think each supplier will have a preference.

I am try to max out my advantage without adding too much weight to the A-frame. If your 6V batteries are on the A-frame you will be dropping ~65 lbs per battery and only adding ~35 lbs for the lithium 100ah batteries. This will make the tongue of your trailer lighter.

Try reaching out to the battery supplier and see if you can get an answer on the charger.

I am really excited about the fixed panel non penetrating install Now I have to go and figure out what dimensions are available.

I should order a Victron 712 to manage my new batteries as well!

wulfraat or Airmiles, do either of you know where the prewired wires reside inside the trailer. I would think that they would be somewhere near the fuse panel or near the SeeLevel gauge??

For this simple setup, my plan is to fabricate a box for the batteries on the A-frame and connect them to the existing battery leads. Then tap into both the prewired Zamp wires and connect them to the Victron 712. Disconnect the onboard charger and add a lithium battery charger that is switched and runs on shore power. I think the 712 can be installed on the wall where the SeeLevel is.

I will adapt the plug on one of my panels to plug into the Zamp outlet and see what sort of performance I can get from that.

This info will be helpful to switters as well.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:36 AM   #16
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If my 2018 is pre-wired for solar, does that mean they wouldn't have to drill holes to install the panels? Isn't the wiring already there?

Re: lithium batteries. PB_NB, have you decided on brand/model?
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
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If my 2018 is pre-wired for solar, does that mean they wouldn't have to drill holes to install the panels? Isn't the wiring already there?

Re: lithium batteries. PB_NB, have you decided on brand/model?
The prewire would mean that there are 2 wires going from outside to inside as far as I understand it. I have a Zamp outlet on the A-frame and there is a little box on the roof that contains the rooftop wire.

I am leaning towards GoPower batteries since my dealer can get me a smoking price on them and they have a local warehouse so shipping is one day.

I think Battleborn are the go to batteries but I am sure there are other brands that are just as good.

Here is the Solar layout if I was to have Airstream do it. I am not too sure which components are already in the trailer but I suspect that very little is in there. Hopefully the busbars are there.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:17 AM   #18
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I has a 2017 23FB Serenity and use the GoPower Suitcase Solar solution (two 130W panels). The factory solar wiring solution only supports a couple of panels. More than that then you need to do a major upgrade. The two panels are only good enough for topping up the batteries. The big benefit is that the panels can be placed in a optimal position away from the trailer while leaving the AS in the shade.

There is not a lot of open real estate on the roof of a 23 FB for many panels unless you get creative and replace the side and back awnings with solar panels. I use two duplexed 2200W generators running on propane when I want to run the A/C while boon-docking.

As stated previously, solar can be a real money pit for a full OTG (off-the-grid) setup with Lithium batteries and enough power to support A/C, microwave, .... The standard AS solar wiring is insufficient for more than two panels. Fortunately the prices are coming down and the panels are getting more efficient.

The standard AS solar solution is not intended for full OTG use. You also need direct sun access which in full sun in hot climates means your AS starts to feel like a dutch oven.

You might want to try the GoPower suitcase solar solution to see if you really want to go down the heavy duty solar path. You only need to add the panels for less than $500. A full solar setup is over 10X that and you need to find someone who can do a professional job without significantly devaluing your AS. I have a few engineering degrees and I would not attempt to do that on my own.

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Old 07-15-2020, 10:29 AM   #19
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Just got off the phone with the dealer. Here's what they typically install:
- 400w of Go Power solar on the roof
- Go Power PWM controller (GP-PWM-30UL)
- 2 x 6v AGM batteries

I will see how this goes and then decide later if I want to upgrade to lithium, which is considerably more involved. I'd need a new converter/charger, I'd lose storage space under the bed (b/c the lithium batteries are too large to fit in the battery compartment), etc.

We are not full-time, and will likely not often boondocks for more than 5-7 days at a time. From what I've read, the setup above (possibly along with a GZ1000/3000 and 100/200w suitcase) should be sufficient, given that we don't watch TV or use computers on camping trips typically.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:35 AM   #20
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Mike, do you have the Factory Solar of just the prewire? If just the prewire, is the A-frame plug active? If that is that the case, this becomes a whole lot easier. My GoPower panel has a charge controller as does my Samlex panel. I might be able to hook them both together and run through the A-frame plug or directly to the batteries. The challenge is they are different manufacturers and different wattages, one is 120W and the other is 135W. I think the need for a lithium battery monitor is still needed to determine the state of charge.

This would be one way to avoid the solar rabbit hole
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