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Old 08-19-2019, 11:39 AM   #1
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No 12V power...

Posted in general repair forum. Reposting, more appropriately, in the electrical forum.

We have a "new to us" 2005 25' Safari. Apparently, it sat in storage for many years before the guy that we bought from picked it up from its original owners to flip. We cannot get the 12V to work. The batteries are good and are charged. We suspect that the battery disconnect behind the sofa is the culprit. It has two fuses which I changed.... The light on the battery disconnect switch by the door is always red.... (I presume that it would change to green?) Our older AS did not have this feature.

Does anyone have any insight? Before I remove the sofa (again)! Also, the fridge does not run on propane... it appears to switch to propane when on shore power, but when disconnected from power, shuts off. Could this be related to the no 12V power issue?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:27 PM   #2
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The fridge needs 12 volt power to run on propane.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamu View Post
The light on the battery disconnect switch by the door is always red.... (I presume that it would change to green?)
The battery Use/Store switch does not turn green, it is either red, or off:

1. If plugged in to shore power, light is always on, whether in "Use" mode or "Store" mode. So if plugged in to shore power, the light doesn't tell you that you are in Use or Store mode. You need to flip it to Use mode to be sure batteries are in "use" mode and being charged when plugged in.

2. If not plugged in to shore power, red light will be on if batteries are in "Use" mode, and off if batteries are in 'Store' mode.

For the rest of your question, could be all sorts of reasons for no 12V power. The converter might not be working, but even if so, you should get 12V power if the batteries are in "Use" mode and not plugged in to shore power.
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:10 PM   #4
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When not on shore power, when you flip to the Use position there should be an audible relay click. If you don't hear anything then the relay is not energizing.

In our 2006 23', behind the L-couch in the front where the cables come in from the battery box, there are some fusible links and cartridges. (I had to remove most of the L-Couch to get to them.)

I suggest you use a voltmeter to check for incoming 12v (or disconnect the batteries and do a continuity check on the fuses). I'll bet one (or more) of them is blown. I accidentally blew one of them and it shut down power to the inverter after I had just replaced 2 fuses in it. (D'oh! I didn't need to remove the L-Couch to replace the internal fuses. I did learn a whole lot about the L-Couch construction after this Homer event.)

The one for the inverter looked like this:
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:16 PM   #5
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Thanks for the image. It helps to have a visual of what I am looking for. I have not found a fuse that looks like that. Will try to get out there before the heat of the day and have another look. Our cables also come in behind the sofa.... Got my dad's voltmeter tonight and will check to see if power is ever even getting in. I've been sure that the relay went bad whilst sitting for a decade. It made sense.... battery disconnect relay faulty= batteries that never connect. I bought a new one, but it would great to not have to replace it. Not sure that is something that I should take on. Way over my pay grade.
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:17 PM   #6
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Thanks for the confirmation.
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:26 AM   #7
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Checked today and there is 12V power coming in (so much for my bad relay theory)... what's my next move?
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:27 AM   #8
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link to photo:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1siA...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #9
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The use/store switch is always red.... shore power or no power.
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamu View Post
The use/store switch is always red.... shore power or no power.
If your battery switch is in the "Use" setting, the light will be red, shore power or not. Is it also red if you are not on shore power AND you flip the switch to "Store" setting?
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:01 PM   #11
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Make sure the disconnect switch is turned on.

Looking at your picture take a voltmeter and test, with the shore power disconnected, for 12 volts between the big red and white wires.

If no voltage between red and white test red to chassis ground. If you do not have power in the first test but do have power in the second test the open is in the white wire to chassis. If you do not have power either test make a jumper wire from battery ground and test between that wire and the red terminal. No power there the open is in the red wire.

For these tests I am assuming you have tested the batteries, battery connections, and the batteries to chassis ground

Get power to this point before testing anything else.

Your frig will work on electric when plugged into shore power. If shore power is disconnected and you attempt to turn the frig on it will run on propane if you have 12 power.
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:17 PM   #12
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With no shore power...
Use/store in Use position - Light is red
Use/store in Store position - Light is off


With shore power...
Use/store is red, regardless of switch position, BUT, batteries will not charge unless the switch is in the Use position.


You show a picture of your breaker box and converter. I think you should unplug from shore power and focus just on getting 12v from your batteries.
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:12 PM   #13
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pamu,

RichW46 is 100% correct. Focus on getting 12V from the batteries to the red and white cables/connectors in the photo you posted.

I troubleshoot electrical issues via email a lot in the course of my work. If you are unfamiliar with electricity, and perhaps a little intimidated, that's entirely understandable. However, please be very clear about what you have, and haven't done, and when asked to check something please post the results of your check/test--even if you might feel you didn't test correctly. We can help with that, but we need to know what you have, and haven't, done, and what the results were. We're here to help! And, with the exception of a few curmudgeons on the site (and you KNOW who you are!) we are NOT judgemental. We all had to start somewhere, and you will NEVER find a more helpful and supportive group than those here at AirForums. And, to be clear--that USE/STORE switch has caused many people lots of frustration and consternation. It is simply NOT intuitive at all.

You said you don't have 12V power. Does that mean that none of the 12V lights work? Please be clearer about how you know you don't have 12V power in the trailer.

Unplug the trailer from shore power.

Press the STORE side of USE/STORE switch. You should hear a clicking noise; please confirm you hear the clicking noise when you press the STORE side of the USE/STORE switch The red light of the USE/STORE switch faceplate should go out (not lit). Post the results of this test to this thread.

Press the USE side of the USE/STORE switch. You should hear a clicking noise; please confirm you hear the clicking noise when you press the USE side of the switch. The red light of the USE/STORE switch faceplate should turn on and be red. Post the results of this test.

As previously suggested, please use the voltmeter to measure between the large (thick) red and white wires on the right side of the photo you posted. Post the voltage reading from the meter to this thread.

Use the voltmeter to test the large (thick) red wire on the right side of the photo you posted with the red lead of the voltmeter touching the clamp the red wire is connected to, and touch the black lead of the voltmeter to ground. Post the voltage reading to this thread.

I don't recall if the LED display of the fridge works without 12V or not; I don't think it does. I think it uses either 12V from the converter OR, when unplugged from shore power AND the USE/STORE switch has been pressed in the USE position and the red light of the USE/STORE switch faceplate is lit (on) the fridge display will work.

Sometimes, it's necessary to try the propane feature of the fridge several times. Air can get into the tubing from the tanks/regulators. I usually light a burner of the stove for a couple of minutes to make sure there is propane in the tubing. Sometimes, this takes a few tries to get a stove burner lit.... THEN, I try the fridge on propane (when there is 12V when the trailer is disconnected from shore power AND the USE/STORE switch red light is lit (on).
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:08 AM   #14
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Yes.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:25 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by pamu View Post


Checked today and there is 12V power coming in (so much for my bad relay theory)... what's my next move?
Where did you determine that you had 12V coming in?

Notice in your picture the black wire at the top. It is labelled converter in. If you have 12V power when on converter that means that everything from the black wire on in that circuit board is working.

If you have power coming in from the batteries on the red and white wires the problem is on the circuit board. Maybe someone shorted something and blew a trace on the back that connects the red wire to the power buss that feeds the fuses.

My early 2000s trailers 12V loads all had return wires to the 12V negative; they did not use or need a chassis ground. There was, however, some wonky wiring related to the battery and converter negatives feeding the power distribution panel. In my case the batteries would power the trailer but the converter would not and would not charge the batteries. When I found and corrected the problem, all was well. Find your 12V negative and chassis ground buss bars and make sure that all wires are engaged and the screws are tight.

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Old 08-21-2019, 10:17 AM   #16
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Will do. I will check and post.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:47 AM   #17
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I will try to be more descriptive and clear. When I posted, I really had no idea that people would read, process, and make thoughtful replies to my problems. I hope to repay in kind at some point.

When not connected to shore power:
1. none of the 12V lights work
2. battery disconnect light is illuminated. There is a faintly audible click from the switch but it does not remain in either position. Light is illuminated if I press USE or STORE. The switch always returns to the center. Is this correct or should it function like a light switch and remain either up or down? There is NO audible click from the relay behind the sofa.

I used a voltmeter to measure between the large (thick) red and white wires of the electrical panel. It read 12V. I think I did this correctly but will try to post pics.

Tested the large (thick) red wire on the red lead of the voltmeter touching the clamp the red wire is connected to, and touch the black lead of the voltmeter to ground. Got a 12V reading. Again, I will post a pic to verify that I did this correctly.

My husband disconnected batteries, charged them, reconnected them, and they read a full charge so I do not think that is the problem.

My voltmeter is ancient but my dad used it all of my life. I believe that it reads accurately.

Not concerned with the fridge. It will sort itself out when the power problem is resolved.

SO.... if indeed the battery disconnect relay behind the sofa is "stuck" it is stuck in the position that allows the circuit to be completed because I have power at the box-- correct? It seems to me then, that I should have the power to run my 12 V lights, but would not be able to use the battery disconnect to "KILL" the batteries. Am I all wet?

Again, this forum is the BEST and I appreciate the time and thought!
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:56 AM   #18
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:07 AM   #19
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7n...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Di...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:17 AM   #20
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https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Wk...u0V1FZ4DQuW4aZ
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