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Old 08-21-2019, 11:19 AM   #21
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When not on shore power, the Battery Disconnect light should be red only when you press the Use. When you press Store, the light should go out. The Use/Store is a momentary press toggle switch. It will not stay in the position you press, it always returns to center. When you press Use you should hear a click near the front of the AS. That's the 12v relay energizing. Your trailer is a '68. I don't know about the wiring for that year but if it's been sitting for a long time then perhaps something is corroded?

I find it odd that the light is always on. I'm wondering if someone has rewired or cross wired something. Can you access the area at the inside, front, where the 12v wires come inside? Can you take voltage readings there? (Sorry, I don't have any pictures of that area.)
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:19 AM   #22
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[QUOTE=HowieE;2279238]Make sure the disconnect switch is turned on.

Looking at your picture take a voltmeter and test, with the shore power disconnected, for 12 volts between the big red and white wires.

If no voltage between red and white test red to chassis ground. If you do not have power in the first test but do have power in the second test the open is in the white wire to chassis. If you do not have power either test make a jumper wire from battery ground and test between that wire and the red terminal. No power there the open is in the red wire.

For these tests I am assuming you have tested the batteries, battery connections, and the batteries to chassis ground

Get power to this point before testing anything else.



I have power to that point.
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richw46 View Post
When not on shore power, the Battery Disconnect light should be red only when you press the Use. When you press Store, the light should go out. The Use/Store is a momentary press toggle switch. It will not stay in the position you press, it always returns to center. When you press Use you should hear a click near the front of the AS. That's the 12v relay energizing. Your trailer is a '68. I don't know about the wiring for that year but if it's been sitting for a long time then perhaps something is corroded?

I find it odd that the light is always on. I'm wondering if someone has rewired or cross wired something. Can you access the area at the inside, front, where the 12v wires come inside? Can you take voltage readings there? (Sorry, I don't have any pictures of that area.)
I am sorry.... the '68 was my first AS dream. This unit is a 2005.... new to us. Been in storage for a number of years.
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:32 AM   #24
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Your picture shows your converter is sending 12vdc to the battery leads from your shore power. If you're not plugged into shore power, then it would be the voltage of the battery. To me, this shows the battery has voltage, but what it doesn't show is battery power coming from the battery into the front of the AS to the solenoid/relay to power all of your lights, etc.

Can you take a voltage reading at the front?
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by pamu View Post
I am sorry.... the '68 was my first AS dream. This unit is a 2005.... new to us. Been in storage for a number of years.

OK, sorry, thought I saw '68 in your profile pic. If you have a 2005 then your configuration should be close to my 2006 23'.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:04 PM   #26
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Yes, I can. But I teach at a night school to support my AS habit. Time for me to get ready for work. I will revisit the problem tomorrow.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richw46 View Post
Your picture shows your converter is sending 12vdc to the battery leads from your shore power. If you're not plugged into shore power, then it would be the voltage of the battery. To me, this shows the battery has voltage, but what it doesn't show is battery power coming from the battery into the front of the AS to the solenoid/relay to power all of your lights, etc.

Can you take a voltage reading at the front?
I am not plugged in to shore power.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:15 PM   #28
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pamu,

One little quibble with your response: You didn't say if shore power was connected to the trailer and supplying power to the converter (or not).

There is no easy way to describe how the USE/STORE switch and red light work. That's why the documentation in the Airstream manual for the switch is so ... friggin' bad. It's an extremely poorly designed switch (for use by owners); it's a cheap design for the manufacturer; and whoever initially approved the switch for use in construction did not understand anything about usefulness or applicability or user-friendliness. (There; I said it; user-friendliness--which does not in any way, shape or form, describe this switch).

What Does the USE/STORE Switch Do? The USE/STORE switch controls an electric solenoid-operated battery disconnect relay which either connects the battery or batteries' output to the trailer's 12 VDC circuits and devices, or disconnects the battery or batteries' output from the trailer's 12 VDC circuits and devices.
The "purpose" of the USE/STORE switch is supposed to be to "easily" disconnect the batteries from the 12 VDC circuits and devices of the trailer by simply pushing a button to operate an electric (solenoid) relay--except there is at least one device that is never disconnected from the batteries: the propane detector. And, it can draw down a battery or set of batteries in about a week or less--REGARDLESS of the position of the solenoid-operated battery disconnect relay. (Some trailers also have other devices which are NOT disconnected from the battery or batteries when the solenoid-operated relay disconnects the battery from the majority of the trailer's other 12 VDC circuits.) Finally, I believe the break-away switch on the front of the trailer is also continually powered by the batteries, though as long as it's not actuated (by pulling the plastic "plunger" out of the switch) it won't draw any power (if it's in good working condition).

What does the red light on the faceplate of the USE/STORE switch indicate? (This presumes the batteries have a charge.) The red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate indicates that 12 VDC is available to power the various 12 VDC circuits and devices (lights; fans; etc.) in the trailer. It doesn't say HOW that 12 VDC power is available, it just indicates that 12 VDC power is available.

What kind of switch is the USE/STORE switch? The USE/STORE switch is a rocker type, spring-return-to-center switch. Press it towards the USE position, you should hear a clicking sound coming from somewhere nearby (that's the solenoid-operated relay moving), and when you release it it will automatically return to the "neutral" middle position. Press it towards the STORE position and you should ALSO hear a clicking sound coming from the same place nearby and indicating the solenoid-operated relay is moving, and when you release it it will automatically return to the "neutral" middle position.

>>The position of the switch (when not being depressed) IS NOT any indication of the condition of the relay controlled by the switch.<<

Description of Operation of the USE/STORE Switch and Red Light There are basically four conditions for the USE/STORE switch, two for when shore power is connected and supplying 120 VAC to the converter (the device that converts 120 VAC to 12 VDC to supply the trailer and charge the batteries), and two when shore power is not connected to the trailer and 120 VAC is not powering the trailer's converter.
1) When shore power IS connected to the trailer AND 120 VAC is being supplied to the trailer and to the converter, the red light on the faceplate of the USE/STORE switch will be on. That is, when 120 VAC is being supplied to the converter the converter output (12 VDC) will be on and powering the trailer (when everything is working correctly). This is regardless of the last movement of the USE/STORE switch.
2) When shore power is connected to the trailer AND 120 VAC is powering the converter and the converter output is working (it will be if the converter is working correctly and 120 VAC is powering it) AND the USE/STORE switch has most recently been moved to the USE position (and automatically returned to the middle "neutral" position when released), the converter 12 VDC output will ALSO be applied to the batteries to charge them (that is, in addition to powering the other 12 VDC devices in the trailer). And, the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate will be lit (on).
3) When shore power IS connected to the trailer AND 120 VAC is powering the converter and the converter output is working AND the USE/STORE switch has most recently been moved to the STORE position (and automatically returned to the middle "neutral" position when released), the converter 12 VDC output WILL NOT be applied to the batteries to charge them--BUT the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate will still be lit (on).
4) When shore power IS NOT connected to the trailer and 120 VAC IS NOT powering the converter, there will be no 12 VDC output from the converter. If the USE/STORE switch was last pushed to the STORE position and automatically returned to the middle "neutral" position the batteries will be disconnected from the trailer's 12 VDC devices (lights; fans; etc.) and the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate will be out (off).
SOOO, because the USE/STORE switch always automatically returns to the middle "neutral" position after being pushed to either the USE or STORE positions, there's almost no way to tell if the disconnect relay is in the USE or STORE position--unless there is no 120 VAC shore power being applied to the trailer and converter. Then, and ONLY then, will the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate indicate when 12 VDC is available for the trailer's 12 VDC.

You can stop reading now; I'm going on a rant. (You have been warned.)
The upshot of all of this is: to have any idea of what "position" the USE/STORE switch is in (or, was left in) you have to move the switch to one position or the other. If there is no shore power connected to the trailer and 120 VAC is NOT powering the converter, and if the red light on the faceplate of the USE/STORE switch is NOT lit (off), it's a pretty safe bet the USE/STORE switch was last pushed to the STORE position (presuming the batteries have a charge).
But, if shore power is connected to the trailer and 120 VAC is powering the converter, the red light on the USE/STORE switch will ALWAYS BE ON. Because 12 VDC will be coming from the converter to the trailer's 12 VDC circuits and devices. You just won't know if the converter is charging the batteries or not. Instead of making the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate indicate whether or not the battery or batteries were connected to or disconnected from the trailer's 12 VDC devices and lights, in their infinite wisdom Airstream and/or the switch designer decided to make it about whether or not 12 VDC was available to operate the trailer's 12 VDC devices and lights--be it from the batteries OR the converter. And, in the process, made it extremely difficult to understand, and even more difficult to explain. Which is, again, why the "explanation" in the manual does not really match the function of the switch--which is to easily disconnect the battery or batteries from the trailer's 12 VDC circuits, NOT to indicate if 12 VDC (from either of two possible sources) is available to power the trailer's 12 VDC devices and lights.
Sorry for all of the verbiage--this ain't simple. And it could have been so much simpler--had someone given some thought to this switch and the relay it controls.
Okay; that's about it. Confusing? You bet. One simple little switch and a red light. And, yet so many things affect the operation and indication of that simple little switch and red light. And, there's almost no way of telling what the switch is "doing" without pushing it in one direction or the other. And, then, because the red light on the USE/STORE switch faceplate doesn't really indicate if the battery or batteries' output is or isn't disconnected from the trailer's 12 VDC output (unless there's no shore power available!), it's almost useless. AND, the battery disconnect relay DOESN'T disconnect the battery from ALL devices that draw current from the battery or batteries--so the batteries can still lose their charge even if the switch was last pushed to the STORE position and the red light on the faceplate of the switch is off.
Isn't this fun? NOT. In my personal opinion, this is the worst feature of an Airstream trailer--by far. And, it doesn't have to be.
Rant finished. (I feel better now. Not that this will ever come to anything.)
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:35 PM   #29
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SO.... if indeed the battery disconnect relay behind the sofa is "stuck" it is stuck in the position that allows the circuit to be completed because I have power at the box-- correct? It seems to me then, that I should have the power to run my 12 V lights, but would not be able to use the battery disconnect to "KILL" the batteries. Am I all wet?
If you aren't confused by now, you're an angel.

The "box" you refer to is the converter in the main aisle. The thick wires you refer to are connected to the battery.

1. If you take a reading on these wires (NOT connected to shore power) you will read the battery voltage.

2. When you ARE connected to shore, these wires will read the output of the converter to the batteries if battery switch is in USE.

Since you aren't connected to shore, you can ignore this aisle "box". Power will be coming from the batteries into the Airstream at the front. If you press Use and you don't hear a significant "click and buzz" from the front of the AS, either the use/store is bad or the solenoid/relay is bad, IMHO
Simple diagram (I hope).
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Old 08-21-2019, 04:08 PM   #30
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Re: the USE/STORE switch. It is an ON-OFF-ON spring return switch. Returning to center is normal. It actuates a relay to connect or disconnect the 12V power.

Have you checked the two 30A fuses in the top row? I suspect that one is for the converter and one (probably the one on the right) is for the batteries.

Since there is no apparent connection on the circuit board to the disconnect switch and power is distributed from there to all circuits, I am guessing it is in the red line to the circuit board. Put the switch in STORE and see if there is still 12 V on the red wire. If not, the USE/STORE switch is working normally.

I'm going with a bad 30A fuse, or a fault on the back side of the circuit board.

Al
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:00 PM   #31
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LOL.... thank you for that response. I read it all-- even after you warned me about the rant. NO one understands your frustration better than I do. I have read everything that I could find on this little switch and although I perfectly understood what it was designed to do (and I even understood the solenoid breaking the circuit)... for the life of me, I could not understand basics (toggle or return to center) light on or off, etc, without the help of my friends on the forum.... by the way... the trailer is NOT connected to shore power and the light is always on. No click from the front of the trailer. All of the info that I've gathered leads me to believe that the solenoid is faulty (perhaps it is the switch or the wiring!). I ordered a replacement. I am unsure if I possess the required skillset to do the work... I will take a closer look and figure it. UNKLJOE- you are terrific and appreciate all your help. I may not have fixed the problem, but I understand how the switch is supposed to work. I even understand that IF it worked as it was intended, that it might not DO what it was intended to!
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:00 AM   #32
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Here's a chart I created for my 2006 23' Safari. This should be correct for most AS around the same time. More recent AS will charge the batteries from the converter regardless of the Use/Store switch setting (I'm told).
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:53 AM   #33
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The Use/Store switch has to be one of the most confusing things about the AS.
Partly because the red light is on all the time with shore power, and may or may not be on when not on shore power.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:42 PM   #34
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The red light on the faceplate of the USE/STORE switch ranks in my top two frustrating things about a late-model Airstream--the other being the controls on the Fantastic Fans. The fans are excellent and while they can be a little loud they create really nice airflow in the trailer. But the controls are downright confusing and, in my personal opinion, inconsistent, and I don't know how they could be 'cause they ain't got no fuzzy logic and if they use AI (Artificial "Intelligence"), it wasn't a human that wrote the program and the chip is HAL from the movie '2001: A Space Odyssey.'


But the original poster needs 12V to be able to experience the Fantastic Fans. Or, maybe, the Fantastic Fans are causing the 12V problems.


Now, wouldn't THAT be a "coincidence"....


Or did AS use Fantastic Fans with the gawdawful controls my 2015 fans have when the original poster's trailer was built? (I hope NOT.)


Anyway, looking forward to hearing back from pamu on the status of the troubleshooting.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:13 PM   #35
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Still looking. Took a break for a bit, but got back in there this past weekend and removed that darned sofa and replaced the solenoid. Reconnected the batteries, and hit the USE/STORE switch. Finally, there was a click.... but that was it. Still no power. A bad converter seems like the next logical move. On the fence about continuing to troubleshoot or breaking out the checkbook and taking it to the AS dealer for repair.

Asking for recommendations for the converter. You have any?


Quote:
Originally Posted by UnklJoe View Post
The red light on the faceplate of the USE/STORE switch ranks in my top two frustrating things about a late-model Airstream--the other being the controls on the Fantastic Fans. The fans are excellent and while they can be a little loud they create really nice airflow in the trailer. But the controls are downright confusing and, in my personal opinion, inconsistent, and I don't know how they could be 'cause they ain't got no fuzzy logic and if they use AI (Artificial "Intelligence"), it wasn't a human that wrote the program and the chip is HAL from the movie '2001: A Space Odyssey.'


But the original poster needs 12V to be able to experience the Fantastic Fans. Or, maybe, the Fantastic Fans are causing the 12V problems.


Now, wouldn't THAT be a "coincidence"....


Or did AS use Fantastic Fans with the gawdawful controls my 2015 fans have when the original poster's trailer was built? (I hope NOT.)


Anyway, looking forward to hearing back from pamu on the status of the troubleshooting.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:15 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamu View Post
Still looking. Took a break for a bit, but got back in there this past weekend and removed that darned sofa and replaced the solenoid. Reconnected the batteries, and hit the USE/STORE switch. Finally, there was a click.... but that was it. Still no power. A bad converter seems like the next logical move. On the fence about continuing to troubleshoot or breaking out the checkbook and taking it to the AS dealer for repair.
Asking for recommendations for the converter. You have any?
Did you check the output from the solenoid? There should be 12v in and (when engaged) 12v out. When not engaged, only 12v into the solenoid.

Did your check the output from the converter? When on shore power, there should be 12v coming out of the converter.

I replaced my OEM with a Progressive Dynamics PD-4655 a few years ago.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:22 PM   #37
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Thanks, Rich. I have not checked outputs but I will.

I ordered a Progressive Dynamics 4655... figuring that even if the current one is not the problem, it's still worth the upgrade.

As usual, I appreciate the help!
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:14 AM   #38
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BIG shout out to all that helped me-- especially Rich46, UnklJoe, and AL and Missy! One new converter later and I FINALLY have 12V power. SUCCESS!

However, the USE/STORE switch still does not work. Wah, wah, wah.....
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:10 PM   #39
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BIG shout out to all that helped me-- especially Rich46, UnklJoe, and AL and Missy! One new converter later and I FINALLY have 12V power. SUCCESS!

However, the USE/STORE switch still does not work. Wah, wah, wah.....
Huzzah! Huzzah! Progress!

You have 12v with shore power, do you have 12v off shore power? With the switch in Use and batteries connected? Your original post said the 12v light is always red, regardless of the switch position. If off shore power, do you always have 12v in the trailer? (like the ceiling lights) (There is only red, never any other color. Red indicates the presence of 12vdc in the trailer. No red light, no 12vdc.)

When on shore power, are the batteries charging? They should charge with the switch in Use but not Store. If they are charging in either position I would say the Use/Store switch might be bad which is why it's always red. But you said earlier that the solenoid is responding to the Use/Store position so that's a head scratcher for me.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:21 PM   #40
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I have traveled in and stored my Airstream for 12 years for one and 7 years for the other. Other than to test to see if it works I have never had occasion to use the use/store switch. Edited::: yeah, I guess it would project against a light or something being on undetected. Maybe I should have used it My mistake.
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