Is a surge protector needed?

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam

Any idea why they say this in that link:
"WARNING: Product is intended to be used only while in an upright position."

I'd guess because of rain protection. The cover becomes a funnel if inverted.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Loose wires most certainly make contact and then can break contact. The wind blows, somebody bumps a power post, somebody unplugs a miss-wired adapter,.... There are lots of ways it can happen.

Bob

And...

Heat, and it was very hot the day there was a problem, makes things expand and separate. The connection somewhere inside the pedestal may have opened slightly, arced and gotten hotter too, then after the plug was pulled out things cooled down and came together. I would guess that pedestal, for any of the reasons Bob and I suggested, will fail someday soon.

Or, perhaps you are a live wire and things happen.

[cwf]

Our inside protector saved us just this week from low voltage on one leg. We were moved to another site and no issues. They worked on the problem and have other rvs come in and out... other trailers on that row had low voltage and some appliances acting up. The park has resolved the problems...which would have gone unknown without identifying the problem. Folks could have been having appliances messed up... in hind sight, it was probably our aluminitis...

[Rollinstone]

Just last evening we had a huge electrical storm hit the RV park...blew out the power. I'm sure some folks fried their electronics. Not us. Our EMS-HW30C did its job. We're still watching tv!

[rmkrum]

Yup. It’s one of those safety-related things you don’t need until just before you need it.

My best buddy is Mr. Justin Case.

[beh2241]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Simple answer is that yes you *do* need a surge protector and that an EMS setup (that disconnects on high / low / error voltages ) is well worth the money. There are far to many campsites out there with flaky power. It only takes one problem to cause a very expensive repair. In addition, it pretty much ruins the camping trip ....

Bob

I quoted this because it's true you do need a surge protector and I found out the hard way. So my wife and I traveled up the coast to the Avenue of the Giants in Northern California and circled back down Interstate 5 stopping at Redwoods RV Park in Crescent City California. We were there two nights and were enjoying the time there taking a trip along 17 Mile drive the first night. However, on the second evening as I was working on my Laptop, MacBook Pro, we experienced a power surge. I unfortunately had my Laptop plugged into the outlet below the table. Now being new to the RV and Airstream lifestyle I didn't realize that that particular outlet is not a GCFI outlet. Needless to say my charger melted off the square brick. I had hoped that my laptop hadn't sustained any damage. I was wrong. $750.00 dollars for a new logic board and fans as well as the entire charger port and everything on that side had to be replaced. So, I installed a surge protector. Expensive, but less than my computer repair.

QUESTION: Can I replace that outlet with a new one like the ones you see in bathrooms and near sinks that have a trip switch that can be reset? Just want to be extra sure that I don't get a repeat of that incident. Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I'm just learning this stuff.

Brian

[SailorSam205]

Originally Posted by beh2241

QUESTION: Can I replace that outlet with a new one like the ones you see in bathrooms and near sinks that have a trip switch that can be reset? Just want to be extra sure that I don't get a repeat of that incident. Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I'm just learning this stuff.
Brian

I doubt putting in another GFCI would make any difference. Most likely, the outlet you were using is actually protected by the outlet in the bathroom. AC power first goes to that outlet and all other outlets are wired downstream to it. If you look at a GFCI outlet they have two sets of connections, LINE and LOAD. Properly wired, line is the wire from the circuit breakers, wire to load goes to other outlets. Easy way to check your trailer - hit the test button on your GFCI outlet. All other outlets should go dead until you hit the reset on the GFCI.
GFCIs protect against a short. They do nothing for a surge.
Recommendation - get a true EMS setup, not just a surge suppressor.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Airstream tends to use "shallow" outlet boxes. GCFI outlets need a "deep" box to fit into. The solution normally is to put in a GCFI breaker rather than a GCFI outlet. Further complicating things in some trailers - you have an inverter that gets in the middle of this and that.

As noted above, a GCFI would not do anything in a surge situation. They are designed to take care of a different problem. Equally, an EMS / surge box will not protect from a ground fault the way a GCFI will.

Interestingly, most computer gear is pretty rugged in terms of faults. Typical testing shows stuff passing 600 to 800V spikes. They also tend to be happy running on 100 to 240V power. All of that makes them pretty tough to kill. The typical charger / converter in your trailer is reported to be less rugged .... ( = you might want to check it ....)

Bob

[gklott]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

As noted above, a GCFI would not do anything in a surge situation. They are designed to take care of a different problem. Equally, an EMS / surge box will not protect from a ground fault the way a GCFI will.

uncle_bob and SailorSam205 are right on with the GFCI and EMS assessment.

As we upgraded from 30A to 50A service, as shown in the single Eaton load center, we integrated dual feeds (top breakers with mechanical interlock), AFCI/GFCI combo breakers on all branch circuits, and panel mounted surge protection (lower right). I can highly recommend the AFCI/GFCI breakers, and we used commercial "WR" rated receptacles around the kitchen, bath, refrigerator, near-the entrance door, and exterior.



73/gus

[bweybright]

Did you have to change the wire gauge in the rest of the system (i.e. trailer walls etc.) when moving from 30 to 50 amp potential service as well? Not intending to be derogatory, just wondering as I don't really know what would be involved.

[SailorSam205]

Originally Posted by bweybright

Did you have to change the wire gauge in the rest of the system (i.e. trailer walls etc.) when moving from 30 to 50 amp potential service as well? Not intending to be derogatory, just wondering as I don't really know what would be involved.

The wire from the outside connector to the power center should be upgrade to handle 50 amps. For 50 amp, NFPA 70 requires 6 gauge, so the run should be 6/3wg, though 8 gauge would probably be sufficient. If the branch circuits are connected to breakers of the original amperage, no other wire would need to be replaced. Upsizing a branch breaker would require replacement of wire appropriate for the new amperage.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by bweybright

Did you have to change the wire gauge in the rest of the system (i.e. trailer walls etc.) when moving from 30 to 50 amp potential service as well? Not intending to be derogatory, just wondering as I don't really know what would be involved.

The branch circuit wiring in our trailer is 12 AWG Type NM-B cable, suitable for 20A. Most of the wiring is not accessible without removing the interior walls, and it can remain as is.

However, you need to conduct a thorough inspection of wiring, receptacles, etc. We replaced many of the receptacles because they were worn out.

Will be glad to go over the details of what we did, if you are interested. Drop us a private message.

73/gus

[blkmagikca]

Actually, 50-amp service is a combination of one 30-amp service and one 20-amp service, both at 115-volts with a common neutral. Generally, the 20-amp circuit is used just for the 2nd air conditioner.

[marcesq]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

Actually, 50-amp service is a combination of one 30-amp service and one 20-amp service, both at 115-volts with a common neutral. Generally, the 20-amp circuit is used just for the 2nd air conditioner.

50 amp service runs on 240 volts... Not 120 like 30 amp.

50 amp service is not simply a 30 amp service plus a 20 amp service.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

Actually, 50-amp service is a combination of one 30-amp service and one 20-amp service, both at 115-volts with a common neutral. Generally, the 20-amp circuit is used just for the 2nd air conditioner.

240/120V 50A RV service is a split phase or single-phase, three wire (plus ground) system. Recommend consulting Section 551.40, "120-Volt or 120/240-Volt, Nominal, Systems", in the National Electrical Code about connections inside the trailer.

73/gus

[blkmagikca]

gklott -> Correct. I was trying to keep it simple. I used to have an AS Land Yacht diesel pusher. The shore power line was just 30-amp, but it had 2 a/c's and a 6.5KW generator. We rewired the two automatic transfer switches into a single ATS for 240-v. Before doing the acually rewiring, my electrical buddy called CSA and went over the changes with them, so that it did not violate any of their code. The 3-wire shore line was replaced with a 4-wire one (100 feet long). I sold the LY, but I still have a box he built that allows one to plug into two 30-amp outlets on a single pedestal, check that the circuit is ok and then plug the 50-amp plug into the box. I no longer need this, so would be open to offers/trades.

[Gene]

First, that receptacle below the table may or may not be part of the GFCI branch circuit. Different models are wired differently. Turn off the GFCI breaker and see which receptacles are live (if any) and you'll know. As stated above, that probably will make no difference in a surge. The GFCI is to protect you; a surge protector to protect devices and appliances.

You can buy a common brand of surge protector from RV stores (can't remember name, but they are yellow). There are 30 and 50 amp versions. There are permanent and temporary versions of both. The temporary kind plugs into the pedestal. There is concern that someone will steal it and I think there is a lock available (obviously I didn't buy a lock). The permanent version is direct wired into the system before the converter. It works best in motorhomes where you have a closet with the converter wires from the outside plug and can mount the surge protector on a wall. Our Airstream trailer did not have that, but I mounted it on the side of the bed below the mattress. It was not the best solution since there are wires that are hard to protect except with a lot of electrical tape. For our new trailer I just got the one that plugs into the pedestal.

Only once I have found a site with reversed polarity. The surge protector will tell you, but the lights can be hard to see in the sun. Our Airstream came with a small plug-in thing to tell polarity anyway. You can use a small protector like you may use at home for TV's and other electronic gear, but they take space, looked sloppy and a single one is easier. These surge protectors have a wait to analyze the circuit before they provide power to the trailer, so you have to wait a bit more than 2 minutes before you have 120 v. power inside.

[stevejones]

Since I started this thread a while back I thought I should report that I got the Progressive Industries EMS PT50X. The timing was good as we are now at a pretty sketchy RV place. So far no issues but feel better with the device protecting us.

Thanks for everyone's posts.

Steve

[blkmagikca]

Originally Posted by Gene

Only once I have found a site with reversed polarity. The surge protector will tell you, but the lights can be hard to see in the sun. Our Airstream came with a small plug-in thing to tell polarity anyway. You can use a small protector like you may use at home for TV's and other electronic gear, but they take space, looked sloppy and a single one is easier. These surge protectors have a wait to analyze the circuit before they provide power to the trailer, so you have to wait a bit more than 2 minutes before you have 120 v. power inside.

When I first started trailering in the early 1980's, it was not uncommon to find pedestals with reverse polarity. So, I rigged up a small plug/socket combo to reverse it back. Those, too, were the days where the pedestals had screw-in fuses, and you had to supply your own. I carried screw-in 15-amp and 20-amp circuit breakers, which I never left behind.

[Blazeman1]

Originally Posted by bigredandoldblue

I just put a progressive surge protector EMS 30 amp in my AS yesterday. I live on Al. and some afternoon thunderstorms rolled in and lightning dropped all around us. It's not the HIGH surge from lightning as it is the LOW voltage of the power trying to come back up to standard voltage. The unit cut off a couple of times because of that. My EMS is hardwired, because no one knows I 've got one and two PROGRESSIVE gives a LIFETIME warranty! If it FRIES, they will send a new circuit board to the next day. That is insurance worth the money. Oh yes the voltage dropped to 103 and the unit shutdown as promised! So if you need any other reasons besides personal experience, that's all I've got.

Tony

Where, and how do you find a place to hard wire a progressive hard wire unit? On a airstream interstate grand tour ext.I would much rather have it permanently installed. Any suggestions please. Thanks, John