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Old 12-30-2021, 07:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

A "smart" alternator will not do anything for the voltage at the 7 pin under load. It's targeted at the vehicle electronics up front.

The reason you disconnect the charge wire without a DC/DC is that your lithiums should be resting at 13.6V. Your alternator (smart or otherwise) may well drop back to 13.2 or lower as you chug through traffic. How low it goes depends on a lot of things. Any time it goes below 13.6, current flows *out* of your trailer batteries and into your TV. It may or may not be much current, but it is a discharge none the less.

Bob
Your first paragraph is not necessarily true. If a TV has a method of isolating the charge line from the rest of the TV system, like a relay, or other device, you would be correct. If a TV has the 7 pin charge line just attached to a positive buss, along with the alternator output line, the TV "sees" the trailer batts just as it does with any other load on the TV electrical system.

Second paragraph is spot on. (AGMs too)
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Old 12-30-2021, 08:15 AM   #22
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Puzzling🤔 Why have I not had a disaster yet?
If it's so needed, and I don't have it, how have our BB's survived.

As a side note. Even after 10hrs on the road I've never seen them under 13.2v.

Sorry, I just don't see the importance of charging the AS batts while underway.TETO

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Old 12-30-2021, 08:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Puzzling Why have I not had a disaster yet?

If it's so needed, and I don't have it, how have our BB's survived.



As a side note. Even after 10hrs on the road I've never seen them under 13.2v.



Sorry, I just don't see the importance of charging the AS batts while underway.TETO



Bob

No disaster, just incomplete trailer charging, especially if you are also running solar at a higher voltage (for agm and lithium). If one doesn't care about getting a charge from the tv. Just disconnect the charge line. If one doesn't have rooftop solar, keep it hooked up, but understand that you will never get a fully charged lithium with a tv alternator.
I am not comfortable with the belief that charging a substantially depleted lithium with an alternator won't result in alternator damage for ALL tow vehicles out there.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:45 AM   #24
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Everyone can benefit from a DC to DC charger

Whether you are using lead acid, AGM, or Lithium a DC to DC charger is an asset. It's function is just like a pump. It negates the voltage drop from the tow vehicle battery to the trailer battery by boosting the voltage to a usable value. It's secondary function is a switch. I have rooftop solar so as I travel during the day I have the DC to DC charger shut off. This allows the solar charger to charge at full capacity saving fuel. At night or on cloudy days I trigger the DC to DC charger to charge. The trigger is connected to my running lights in the trailer.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:53 AM   #25
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Whether you are using lead acid, AGM, or Lithium a DC to DC charger is an asset. It's function is just like a pump. It negates the voltage drop from the tow vehicle battery to the trailer battery by boosting the voltage to a usable value. It's secondary function is a switch. I have rooftop solar so as I travel during the day I have the DC to DC charger shut off. This allows the solar charger to charge at full capacity saving fuel. At night or on cloudy days I trigger the DC to DC charger to charge. The trigger is connected to my running lights in the trailer.
That works. For those of us with smallish solar and depleted batteries, it is good to have victron controller and victron DC/DC set to the same program. That way the charge amperages are additive.
The point is DC/DC allows for a lot of flexibility and protection.
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:17 AM   #26
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We do not have solar, though I do have a 100w Renogy suitcase as a back-up

We spent four days boondocking at Lake Powell, using the pump for two showers every day, lights, Sirius radio, and a little heat in the mornings, cooking, etc. Drew down the LION lithium batteries to 67%.

Drove to Capital Reef, and the batteries were back up to 100%, by charging using the Renogy dc-dc 20a charger while traveling and enabling us to camp again without hookups for several days.

I think a dc-dc charger is handy and just another tool in managing power.
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:19 AM   #27
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We do not have solar, though I do have a 100w Renogy suitcase as a back-up



We spent four days boondocking at Lake Powell, using the pump for two showers every day, lights, Sirius radio, and a little heat in the mornings, cooking, etc. Drew down the LION lithium batteries to 67%.



Drove to Capital Reef, and the batteries were back up to 100%, by charging using the Renogy dc-dc 20a charger while traveling and enabling us to camp again without hookups for several days.



I think a dc-dc charger is handy and just another tool in managing power.
Well put.
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Old 12-30-2021, 01:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
No disaster, just incomplete trailer charging, especially if you are also running solar at a higher voltage (for agm and lithium). If one doesn't care about getting a charge from the tv. Just disconnect the charge line. If one doesn't have rooftop solar, keep it hooked up, but understand that you will never get a fully charged lithium with a tv alternator.
I am not comfortable with the belief that charging a substantially depleted lithium with an alternator won't result in alternator damage for ALL tow vehicles out there.
But, can't you tell...I really don't care about getting more than 13.2-8 volts in the AS batteries. That is the resting full charge for the BB's, I do believe.
I don't understand the charge line disconnect requirement.
POI I do NOT leave it connected when stationary.
Maybe it's because we never tow with fully discharged BB's

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Old 12-30-2021, 02:03 PM   #29
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But, can't you tell...I really don't care about getting more than 13.2-8 volts in the AS batteries. That is the resting full charge for the BB's, I do believe.

I don't understand the charge line disconnect requirement.

POI I do NOT leave it connected when stationary.

Maybe it's because we never tow with fully discharged BB's



Bob

BB says they want 14.2 -14.6v for bulk and absorption. 13.6v for float.
https://battlebornbatteries.com/char...es-the-basics/
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Old 12-30-2021, 02:06 PM   #30
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Read that link all the way through. Pretty much covers everything we've discussed in this thread.
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:41 PM   #31
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A Dumb Alternator still has a sense circuit. It your BB are depleted and you Alternator sensed the low voltage from the 7 wire it will “ Full Field”. Like you running on a stress test tread mill so the question is how long can you last. I would not be as concerned with lead acid batteries or charge rate.

However as my professor in Automotive college told us one day in electrical class. Ignorance can be fixed with good education but stupidity takes a great salesman. Good luck.
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Old 12-31-2021, 12:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Your first paragraph is not necessarily true. If a TV has a method of isolating the charge line from the rest of the TV system, like a relay, or other device, you would be correct. If a TV has the 7 pin charge line just attached to a positive buss, along with the alternator output line, the TV "sees" the trailer batts just as it does with any other load on the TV electrical system.

Second paragraph is spot on. (AGMs too)
Hi

Can you point to a smart alternator setup that puts a sense line at the 7 pin and then servos the system voltage to maintain that point at some fixed level? If so then yes it would do some good. I have never seen a system like that and there are a number of really good reasons why you would not set it up that way. The issue is drop in all those wires ...

Bob
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Old 12-31-2021, 12:58 PM   #33
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Hi



Can you point to a smart alternator setup that puts a sense line at the 7 pin and then servos the system voltage to maintain that point at some fixed level? If so then yes it would do some good. I have never seen a system like that and there are a number of really good reasons why you would not set it up that way. The issue is drop in all those wires ...



Bob
It's done through the ecm and bcm by sensing system amperage and voltage. Where noted below, switching components will command certain outputs. Before all this discussion, I was using headlamps in order to get a charge to the AS batteries from tv and solar.

"Charging System Operation
The purpose of the charging system is to maintain the battery charge and vehicle loads. There are 6 modes of operation and they include:

Battery Sulfation Mode

Charge Mode

Fuel Economy Mode

Headlamp Mode

Start Up Mode

Voltage Reduction Mode

The engine control module (ECM) controls the generator through the generator turn ON signal circuit. The ECM monitors the generator performance though the generator field duty cycle signal circuit. The signal is a pulse width modulation (PWM) signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-95 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 95-100 percent are for diagnostic purposes. The following table shows the commanded duty cycle and output voltage of the generator:

Commanded Duty Cycle Generator Output Voltage

10% 11 V
20% 11.56 V
30% 12.12 V
40% 12.68 V
50% 13.25 V
60% 13.81 V
70% 14.37 V
80% 14.94 V
90% 15.5 V

The generator provides a feedback signal of the generator voltage output through the generator field duty cycle signal circuit to the ECM. This information is sent to the body control module (BCM). The signal is PWM signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-99 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 100 percent are for diagnostic purposes.

Battery Sulfation Mode
The BCM will enter this mode when the interpreted generator output voltage is less than 13.2 V for 45 minutes. When this condition exists the BCM will enter Charge Mode for 2-3 minutes. The BCM will then determine which mode to enter depending on voltage requirements.

Charge Mode
The BCM will enter Charge Mode when ever one of the following conditions are met.

The wipers are ON for more than 3 seconds.

GMLAN (Climate Control Voltage Boost Mode Request) is true, as sensed by the HVAC control head. High speed cooling fan, rear defogger and HVAC high speed blower operation can cause the BCM to enter the Charge*Mode.The*estimated battery temperature is less than 0°C (32°F).

Battery State of Charge is less than 80 percent.

Vehicle speed is greater than 145 km/h (90 mph)

Current sensor fault exists.

System voltage was determined to be below 12.56 V

When any one of these conditions is met, the system will set targeted generator output voltage to a charging voltage between 13.9-15.5 V, depending on the battery state of charge and estimated battery temperature.

Fuel Economy Mode
The BCM will enter Fuel Economy Mode when the estimated battery temperature is at least 0°C (32°F) but less than or equal to 80°C (176°F), the calculated battery current is less than 15 amperes and greater than -8 amperes and the battery state-of-charge is greater than or equal to 80 percent. Its targeted generator output voltage is the open circuit voltage of the battery and can be between 12.5-13.1 V. The BCM will exit this mode and enter Charge Mode when any of the conditions described above are present.

Headlamp Mode
The BCM will enter Headlamp Mode when ever the headlamps are ON (high or low beams). Voltage will be regulated between 13.9-14.5 V.

Start Up Mode
When the engine is started the BCM sets a targeted generator output voltage of 14.5 V for 30 seconds.

Voltage Reduction Mode
The BCM will enter Voltage Reduction Mode when the calculated ambient air temperature is above 0°C (32°F). The calculated battery current is less than 1 ampere and greater than -7 amperes and the generator field duty cycle is less than 99 percent. Its targeted generator output voltage is 12.9 V. The BCM will exit this mode once the criteria are met for Charge Mode"

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Old 12-31-2021, 01:12 PM   #34
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Talking

I also understand that there may be a trailer haul mode as well. When the trailer haul mode is selected and the truck detects that a trailer is plugged in, the alternator will continue to provide a charge through the 7pin even after it detects that the starting battery is fully recharged.

It is shameful to admit that these new smart alternators are smarter than me, but, alas, I do not fully understand how they work.

That is why I installed a 12-12-30 DC-DC Victron charger. Now I do not have to try and figure out what my smart alternator is up to, I know that my lithiums are getting a 30 amp charge when needed using the correct lithium charging profile. I am sure my smart alternator is not that smart.
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Old 12-31-2021, 01:22 PM   #35
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This one is a bit long, but may offer some clarity.
https://www.motor.com/magazine-summa...arging-system/

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Old 12-31-2021, 01:25 PM   #36
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I also understand that there may be a trailer haul mode as well. When the trailer haul mode is selected and the truck detects that a trailer is plugged in, the alternator will continue to provide a charge through the 7pin even after it detects that the starting battery is fully recharged.

It is shameful to admit that these new smart alternators are smarter than me, but, alas, I do not fully understand how they work.

That is why I installed a 12-12-30 DC-DC Victron charger. Now I do not have to try and figure out what my smart alternator is up to, I know that my lithiums are getting a 30 amp charge when needed using the correct lithium charging profile. I am sure my smart alternator is not that smart.
I have heard others say that, but I have observed fuel economy mode (low voltage on dash needle) with trailer in tow, tow/haul on, climate control off, headlights off. Also, AS solar backfeed truck as well, because of higher AGM voltage setting in the victron controller.

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Old 12-31-2021, 02:22 PM   #37
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This, from a 2009 GMC owners manual. "If you are charging a remote (non-vehicle) battery, press the tow/haul mode button located at the end of the shift lever. This will boost the vehicle system voltage and properly charge the battery. If the trailer is too light for tow/haul mode, you can turn on the headlamps as a second way to boost the vehicle system and charge the battery."

From a GM Service Bulletin. Camper/Trailer Battery Charging Concerns
Some customers may comment that when towing or hauling a camper/trailer, the auxiliary battery for the camper/trailer will not stay charged. In most cases, this concern is blamed on the new RVC system. While the RVC system does reduce the generator's targeted output voltage to 12.6-13.1 volts when in "Fuel Economy Mode", this feature is bypassed if the tow/haul feature is enabled. With the tow/haul feature enabled, the RVC system will stay in "Charge Mode" and the targeted generator output voltage will be 13.9-15.5 volts, depending on the battery state of charge and the estimated battery temperature. To keep the generator in the "Charge Mode", use either of the following two methods.

• The first method is to use the tow/haul mode when towing or hauling a camper or trailer.

• The second method is to turn on the headlights, which will increase the generator's targeted output voltage to 13.9-14.5 volts.
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Old 12-31-2021, 02:42 PM   #38
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This, from a 2009 GMC owners manual. "If you are charging a remote (non-vehicle) battery, press the tow/haul mode button located at the end of the shift lever. This will boost the vehicle system voltage and properly charge the battery. If the trailer is too light for tow/haul mode, you can turn on the headlamps as a second way to boost the vehicle system and charge the battery."

From a GM Service Bulletin. Camper/Trailer Battery Charging Concerns
Some customers may comment that when towing or hauling a camper/trailer, the auxiliary battery for the camper/trailer will not stay charged. In most cases, this concern is blamed on the new RVC system. While the RVC system does reduce the generator's targeted output voltage to 12.6-13.1 volts when in "Fuel Economy Mode", this feature is bypassed if the tow/haul feature is enabled. With the tow/haul feature enabled, the RVC system will stay in "Charge Mode" and the targeted generator output voltage will be 13.9-15.5 volts, depending on the battery state of charge and the estimated battery temperature. To keep the generator in the "Charge Mode", use either of the following two methods.

• The first method is to use the tow/haul mode when towing or hauling a camper or trailer.

• The second method is to turn on the headlights, which will increase the generator's targeted output voltage to 13.9-14.5 volts.
I was just going to post that bulletin. I know I have played with the tow haul mode while driving and seen no rise in voltage. I'm going to have to work it again when I leave for AZ in 3 weeks. I had to turn on lights to get voltage rise. Now that I installed the victron DC/DC, its irrelevant, but I'm curious.

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Old 12-31-2021, 03:41 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
This, from a 2009 GMC owners manual. "If you are charging a remote (non-vehicle) battery, press the tow/haul mode button located at the end of the shift lever. This will boost the vehicle system voltage and properly charge the battery. If the trailer is too light for tow/haul mode, you can turn on the headlamps as a second way to boost the vehicle system and charge the battery."

From a GM Service Bulletin. Camper/Trailer Battery Charging Concerns
Some customers may comment that when towing or hauling a camper/trailer, the auxiliary battery for the camper/trailer will not stay charged. In most cases, this concern is blamed on the new RVC system. While the RVC system does reduce the generator's targeted output voltage to 12.6-13.1 volts when in "Fuel Economy Mode", this feature is bypassed if the tow/haul feature is enabled. With the tow/haul feature enabled, the RVC system will stay in "Charge Mode" and the targeted generator output voltage will be 13.9-15.5 volts, depending on the battery state of charge and the estimated battery temperature. To keep the generator in the "Charge Mode", use either of the following two methods.

• The first method is to use the tow/haul mode when towing or hauling a camper or trailer.

• The second method is to turn on the headlights, which will increase the generator's targeted output voltage to 13.9-14.5 volts.
However, there were two generations of smart alternators and the vehicle lines switched in a staggered fashion as electrical architectures were phased in. RVC(non-integrated) was used in the mid 2000s and SARVC(integrated) was later.

RVC can be identified to an ammeter pickup on the negative battery cable right by the neg batt post. SARVC is integrated to BCM inputs and has no ammeter on the cable, as that info is already provided to the BCM.

I can find ZERO reference to the tow/haul in my 2015 Silverado owner manual (SARVC system). Was there a date and models listed in your bulletin reference?
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Old 12-31-2021, 03:45 PM   #40
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This bulletin is for GMT900 trucks through 2013. (RVC)

2014 - 2018 were K1 trucks (SARVC)


Subject: Information on Voltmeter Gauge Fluctuation Due to Regulated Voltage Control System and Concerns
About Camper/Trailer Battery Charging
Models: 2005-2014 Cadillac Escalade Models
2005-2013 Chevrolet Avalanche
2005-2013 Chevrolet Silverado, Silverado Classic, Suburban, Tahoe
2014 Chevrolet Silverado 2500/3500
2005-2013 GMC Sierra, Sierra Classic, Yukon Models
2014 GMC Sierra 2500/3500
Attention: This Bulletin also applies to any of the above models that may be Export vehicles.
This bulletin has been revised to add the 2011-2014 Model Years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 07-06-03-009B.
Voltmeter Fluctuation Condition
Some customers may comment that the voltmeter is fluctuating between 12 and 14 volts on their full size pickup or utility vehicle. Starting with the 2005 model
year, light duty full size pickups and utilities are equipped with a Regulated Voltage Control (RVC) system. This system reduces the targeted output of the
generator to 12.6–13.1 volts when in “Fuel Economy Mode” to improve fuel economy. The generator may exit “Fuel Economy Mode” if additional voltage is
required. This will cause the voltmeter to fluctuate between 12 and 14 volts as opposed to non-regulated systems that usually maintain a more consistent
reading of 14 volts. This fluctuation with the RVC system is normal system operation and NO repairs should be attempted.
Camper/Trailer Battery Charging Concerns
Some customers may comment that when towing or hauling a camper/trailer, the auxiliary battery for the camper/trailer will not stay charged. In most cases, this
concern is blamed on the new RVC system. While the RVC system does reduce the generator's targeted output voltage to 12.6–13.1 volts when in “Fuel
Economy Mode”, this feature is bypassed if the tow/haul feature is enabled. With the tow/haul feature enabled, the RVC system will stay in “Charge Mode” and
the targeted generator output voltage will be 13.9–15.5 volts, depending on the battery state of charge and the estimated battery temperature. To keep the
generator in the “Charge Mode”, use either of the following two methods.
• The first method is to use the tow/haul mode when towing or hauling a camper or trailer.
• The second method is to turn on the headlights, which will increase the generator's targeted output voltage to 13.9–14.5 volts.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may
occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools,
safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that
your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
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