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06-23-2007, 09:40 AM
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#1
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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Hot Skin
On my 2004 30' Classic I recently discovered "hot skin". I have read several other threads but need a bit of advice so here is the set-up.
From my 30-amp RV outlet at my home I have attached 2ea. 30ft heavy duty RV extension cords to my power cord on the trailer. The trailer is sitting on concrete, no contact with the ground/grass.
So, several issues at this point.
1. I have voltage on the frame when my #2 (110vac, marked BDR/Convertor on the electrical panel) ciruit breaker is on. From reading the skematic (can I trust it?)this breaker does feed the BDR outlet, several others on its way up to the "Converter". The skematic shows a converter off/on switch in line with this circuit near the door but I cannot find it anyhwere and I have looked behind the curtains and so forth. My '95 had it behind the curtain but apparently it is not there on the 2003 even though the 2003 book shows it on the skematic. When this #2 breaker is off the hot skin goes away. This tells me it is not the amount or type of extension cords causing the probem, I think. It also appears to have isolated this issue to this circuit only. In addition, with the 12dcv ceiling light on in the BDR, when I turn on the #2 breaker, I get a bit of a surge or brown out on this light. In other words it has a visible change in intensity.
2. This issue seems to be seperate from the first issue. When I test from an earth ground to the ground poll of the electrical outlet near the magazine rack near the front door I get 6-vac. This is with #2 breaker off but the others all on.
3. With only the Main 30amp breaker on and all sub-circuits switches off I get 1.5vac between earth ground and the trailer frame.
What is normal? Any idea what may be going on? I have not yet disconnected the converter from the power source and then turn the breaker back on to attempt to isolate but I think I need to do that next. I have used the plug with lamps on it to check polairty but that seems to be ok as well.
HELP!
Earthcreeper.
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06-23-2007, 09:55 AM
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#2
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418
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
On my 2004 30' Classic I recently discovered "hot skin". I have read several other threads but need a bit of advice so here is the set-up.
From my 30-amp RV outlet at my home I have attached 2ea. 30ft heavy duty RV extension cords to my power cord on the trailer. The trailer is sitting on concrete, no contact with the ground/grass.
So, several issues at this point.
1. I have voltage on the frame when my #2 (110vac, marked BDR/Convertor on the electrical panel) ciruit breaker is on. From reading the skematic (can I trust it?)this breaker does feed the BDR outlet, several others on its way up to the "Converter". The skematic shows a converter off/on switch in line with this circuit near the door but I cannot find it anyhwere and I have looked behind the curtains and so forth. My '95 had it behind the curtain but apparently it is not there on the 2003 even though the 2003 book shows it. When this #2 breaker is off the hot skin goes away. This tells me it is not the amount or type of extension cords causing the probem, I think. In addition, with the 12dcv ceiling light on in the BDR, when I turn on the #2 breaker, I get a bit of a surge or brown out on this light. In other words it has a visible change in intensity.
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What do you mean by "hot skin"? 120V on the skin?
The change in light intensity is normal, because with the breaker off, the light is supplied with battery power. When you turn on the breaker, and subsequently the converter, the light now gets a boost from the converter.
Your extension cords, unless defective, have nothing to do with your symptoms. You might want to check the ground wire for continuity on both extension cords, though. In other words, make sure all three wires are indeed intact, and make good contact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
2. This issue seems to be seperate from the first issue. When I test from an earth ground to the ground poll of the electrical outlet near the magazine rack near the front door I get 6vac. This is with #2 breaker off but the others on.
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Which earth ground?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
3. With only the Main 30amp breaker on I get 1.5vac between earth ground and the trailer frame.
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Again, which earth ground? Like a pole in the dirt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
What is normal? Any idea what may be going on? I have not yet disconnected the converter from the power source and then turn the breaker back on to attempt to isolate but I think I need to do that next. I have used the plug with lamps on it to check polairty but that seems to be ok as well.
HELP!
Earthcreeper.
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06-23-2007, 10:04 AM
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#3
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Retired Moderator
1992 29' Excella
madison
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,644
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Quote:
From my 30-amp RV outlet at my home I have attached 2ea. 30ft heavy duty RV extension cords to my power cord on the trailer. The trailer is sitting on concrete, no contact with the ground/grass.
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one: is your 30amp house outlet wired correctly? are you sure?
two: does it do it without the extension cords?
john
ps. unplug it now before someone gets hurt.
__________________
you call them ferrets, i call them weasels.
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06-23-2007, 07:43 PM
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#4
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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Thanks guys.
The cords need to stay until I move the trailer but when I check polarity in the camper with the plugin tester with lights on it the 2 yellow lights come on and that means it is OK.
With all the breakers on I get 18.6vac. on the frame of the trailer or the screen door lets mention. This is using the earth ground as a test point. The earth ground is a screw driver pushed in about 1-foot into rain saturated Iowa soil with a 12-awg wire attached to it and I am confident it is a great great. I tested a 110 outlet in the camper across both poles. It is 125.5vac. When I do that test using the earth ground as a test point and 1 hot side of the 110 circuit I get the same reading.
The house wiring is a simple 30-amp circuit. 1-hot, 1-neutral, 1-ground. Again, the polarity checks out OK.
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06-23-2007, 08:51 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
1977 31' Sovereign
1963 26' Overlander
1989 34' Excella
Johnsburg
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,944
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Check the voltage of the nuetral wire in the trailer to your earth ground. There should be no voltage. If there is then the house nuetral is not properly grounded. There should be a copper rod pounded into the ground some where around where the power comes into the house. Check that the wire is properly tight to this ground. You may need to move it around a bit to dislodge any corrosion. If the ground is good there then you need to check the voltage of the nuetral in the main box to the copper ground bar and work from there to make sure you have a good ground.
The hot skin on the trailer could also be due to a partial short from some of the high side wiring in the trailer. That is a harder thing to track. Basically you need to follow from outlet to outlet in the trailer and disconnect them one at a time until you discover the run of wire which is causing the problem. Then it is a decision whether you rip the walls out to find it or abandon using that section of wire. Unless that section of wire supports a critical function, I might just abandon it.
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06-23-2007, 09:53 PM
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#6
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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I will test the feed to the trailer. Great idea. That should further isolate where I need to be looking. Should have done that first I guess. That's why ya get the big bucks Dwight!!
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06-24-2007, 05:46 PM
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#7
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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I tested the cords for foreign voltage on the ground and did an ohms test as well. Nothing wrong. The home has the proper ground rods etc.
There is no voltage on the neutral but there is voltage on the ground pole of the electrical outlets.
Any idea if a solar panel for charging batteries can be doing this?
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06-24-2007, 06:13 PM
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#8
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4 Rivet Member
2002 22' International CCD
San Luis Obispo
, California
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 418
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We experienced a "hot skin" (an occasional electrical tingle when touching the outside of the AS) and then a popped 120 volt breaker, all when plugged into 30 amp shore power. Upon investigation, I found that the 120 volt wire from the converter for that circuit had rubbed against a sharp edge of the metal converter box and rubbed through the insulation, causing a short. It was barely touching the metal box and making intermittent contact. Glad I found it (and glad the circuit breaker worked!) before something more exciting happened. This was in our 2002 22' CCD..... owners of that AS model should check to be sure no wires are rubbing against the metal edge of the converter.
__________________
Wayne
2002 22' CCD
2008 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7L Hemi
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06-24-2007, 08:21 PM
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#9
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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Wayne, the voltage I measure is about 25.5 volts AC with all breakers turned on and no breakers are popping off. As I shut off 1 breaker at a time and re-measure voltage there is a drop in the voltage measurement. Even when all breakers are off I still get 2.1 volts AC. I don't get it.
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06-24-2007, 10:14 PM
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#10
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
Wayne, the voltage I measure is about 25.5 volts AC with all breakers turned on and no breakers are popping off. As I shut off 1 breaker at a time and re-measure voltage there is a drop in the voltage measurement. Even when all breakers are off I still get 2.1 volts AC. I don't get it.
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2.1 volts with all breaks off is nothing to worry about. That could be inductance. It could be a pinched wire with a high resistance connection.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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06-25-2007, 06:34 PM
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#11
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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I wonder if I don't have water in a conduit or something like that. I hooked it up to my hitch and therefore the power jack is not touching the concrete. I then hooked up to power again. The measurement went up to 45.5vac on the frame.
I took it to the dealer. Will let you know what they find.
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06-29-2007, 02:07 PM
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#12
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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The dealer has told me there is no voltage like I was explaining. Hands full of hair at this point.
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06-29-2007, 05:19 PM
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#13
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3 Rivet Member
1948 16' Wee Wind
1964 26' Overlander
2007 19' Bambi
crossville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 190
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? have you checked bonding lug from buss bar in breaker box (trlr) to frame of trlr. ?. this used to be a common cause of hot skin in the old days.
make sure all connections are tight and clean.
a/c wire rubbed to bare metal should short and blow breaker if frame is properly grounded. I gather polarity has been checked and is good?
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06-29-2007, 05:20 PM
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#14
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Retired Moderator
1992 29' Excella
madison
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,644
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back to basics
first from uwe
Quote:
Your extension cords, unless defective, have nothing to do with your symptoms. You might want to check the ground wire for continuity on both extension cords, though. In other words, make sure all three wires are indeed intact, and make good contact.
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second, from me
Quote:
does it do it without the extension cords?
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third
did your dealer use your extension cords?
john
__________________
you call them ferrets, i call them weasels.
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06-29-2007, 05:22 PM
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#15
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Retired Moderator
1992 29' Excella
madison
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,644
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by the way,
your trailer is not parked under a high voltage line when you are making these "tests" correct?
john
__________________
you call them ferrets, i call them weasels.
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06-29-2007, 10:08 PM
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#16
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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John;
I will pick up the trailer on Monday. While I am there I am going to have them duplicate the tests in front of me. Not parked under any inductive lines. Not sure if they used extension cords but don't understand how that can make a difference any way. The voltage is high enough to tingle while on concrete in bare feet. Can't really be a complete short to ground from the positive side or I would test a full 110vac on the frame testing to earth ground. I am still thinking water is involed, such as water in a conduit where water usually does not go and perhaps the cables are not underground rated sheaths and somehow the water is causing a high short to the ground harness of the camper. I am thinking the dealer is not testing it how I asked using a separate earth ground. Hard to deal with techs that know they are much smarter than the customer.
Anyway, I will keep you posted when I learn more om Monday. Thanks for taking an interest.
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07-02-2007, 03:24 PM
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#17
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Dallas Center/Des Moines
, Iowa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 142
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Well, I picked it up at the dealer today. Tested it while I was there . No trouble. I got home and fully expected to find the problem back. No trouble here either. Airstream Aliens are back. Be careful out there. All of you who offered help and ideas, your kindness and your time......I thank you!
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08-11-2007, 07:59 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2020 30’ Globetrotter
2001 30' Excella
Phoenix
, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthcreeper
On my 2004 30' Classic I recently discovered "hot skin". I have read several other threads but need a bit of advice so here is the set-up.
From my 30-amp RV outlet at my home I have attached 2ea. 30ft heavy duty RV extension cords to my power cord on the trailer. The trailer is sitting on concrete, no contact with the ground/grass.
So, several issues at this point.
1. I have voltage on the frame when my #2 (110vac, marked BDR/Convertor on the electrical panel) ciruit breaker is on. From reading the skematic (can I trust it?)this breaker does feed the BDR outlet, several others on its way up to the "Converter". The skematic shows a converter off/on switch in line with this circuit near the door but I cannot find it anyhwere and I have looked behind the curtains and so forth. My '95 had it behind the curtain but apparently it is not there on the 2003 even though the 2003 book shows it on the skematic. When this #2 breaker is off the hot skin goes away. This tells me it is not the amount or type of extension cords causing the probem, I think. It also appears to have isolated this issue to this circuit only. In addition, with the 12dcv ceiling light on in the BDR, when I turn on the #2 breaker, I get a bit of a surge or brown out on this light. In other words it has a visible change in intensity.
2. This issue seems to be seperate from the first issue. When I test from an earth ground to the ground poll of the electrical outlet near the magazine rack near the front door I get 6-vac. This is with #2 breaker off but the others all on.
3. With only the Main 30amp breaker on and all sub-circuits switches off I get 1.5vac between earth ground and the trailer frame.
What is normal? Any idea what may be going on? I have not yet disconnected the converter from the power source and then turn the breaker back on to attempt to isolate but I think I need to do that next. I have used the plug with lamps on it to check polairty but that seems to be ok as well.
HELP!
Earthcreeper.
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I had the same situation with my AS and I found that the trailer power cord was shorting to the skin where it passed through a hole to the back of the trailer. The cord was very brittle and had numerous cracks thus causing a voltage leak from the cord. After rewiring cord and the box, I now have 0 volts from the trailer to the earth. Did you check your continuity of the ground pin of your plug to your trailer skin?
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