Gas or Propane Generator

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

GenConnex is the place to go

http://www.genconnexdirect.net/propane-fittings.htm

Well, I called these guys, and was told since I have a Champion, not a Honda, it would be best to contact Champion directly or go to a propane shop and get custom hose. I called Champion, but hold time was 23 min, So, off I go today to local propane dealer... by the way, we used the Champion Dual Fuel with the 20lb propane bottle for 28 hours this past 2 weeks, and still had 4 lbs of fuel in the portable tank. Pretty efficient generator...

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Well, I called these guys, and was told since I have a Champion, not a Honda, it would be best to contact Champion directly or go to a propane shop and get custom hose. I called Champion, but hold time was 23 min, So, off I go today to local propane dealer... by the way, we used the Champion Dual Fuel with the 20lb propane bottle for 28 hours this past 2 weeks, and still had 4 lbs of fuel in the portable tank. Pretty efficient generator...

That's disappointing, you should have just just spec'd out the hose you wanted without a mention of brand, they only do Honda. So to cover their butt they don't make them for champion. Did you check their hose page to see if there is one you can just direct order on line? Hopefully by this point you're all set though.

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by dasams

AFAIK, I have the standard orifice and I was not aware that different sizes are available. Can they be easily changed in the field? If so, that would be great.

On the 2000 I believe it's just a side cover removal and an small Allen wrench to swap out the orifice on the front of the carb

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

That's disappointing, you should have just just spec'd out the hose you wanted without a mention of brand, they only do Honda. So to cover their butt they don't make them for champion. Did you check their hose page to see if there is one you can just direct order on line? Hopefully by this point you're all set though.

Yea, I am good to go for now. I will spend some more time when I get back to Austin, and eliminate a few "reducers" I had to get to make things all work...key now is it is working fine! Amazon has all the fittings...should have just bit the bullet and got them there in first place.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

On the 2000 I believe it's just a side cover removal and an small Allen wrench to swap out the orifice on the front of the carb

Correct. If you ask, Genconnex will include in their kit a set of three orifices at no charge. Takes 2 minutes to change. For Under 5,000 feet, 5-8000 feet, and above 8,000 feet. 3600 feet should not be a problem. I wonder if some other 120V items were drawing power as well?

I tried mine (Honda) at 8000 feet and it worked, but it was not a hot day, just a test.

Something else to keep in mind--trying to run AC with a microstart installed, can still be a problem when using your generator if you have other draws, such as the hot water heater on the electric (definitely won't fire AC) setting, The coffee maker on, or even the battery charger in bulk charge mode. Best to try to eliminate most other 120V draws when trying to run AC with the generator.

Here is answer from Genconnex when I inquired about elevation:

I have also included a note to send you the free orifice kit for high altitude. It should be changed out if you’re above 5-6k or you may not get enough power output from the generator to run you’re a/c. Generator power (all versions) is reduced by about 2% per 1000ft above sea level but is even worse if you don’t change to the correct fuel orifice. Effectively, that number can double because it’s not only thinner air but not properly balanced with the fuel. Your 2000Watt peak power could be as low as 1300-1400Watts at 7-8k.

[LittleWolf]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

We love our pre-converted Genconnex unit. Here's my unboxing video: https://youtu.be/BiOKFyLtHWQ

One question, and I really enjoyed this unboxing video. Let me preface this by saying electricity isn't my strong suit. Is that ground-to-neutral plug option necessary? I asked GenConnex directly and their response was the benefit to that adaptor is that it'll prevent "surge strips/outlet strips" inside my tt from showing a neutral error. And I have to admit I don't know what that means. Will the electrical outlets inside not operate without that adaptor plugged into the generator? Thanks for any clarification you can offer. Pam

[rmkrum]

Airstream electrical systems are wired according to the National Electric Code. On an Airstream, there is a hot lead and a neutral lead supplying power to the 120 volt circuits. There is a ground wire (also called safety earth) that is connected to the shell and frame of the Airstream for safety. The code requires that neutral and ground be separate in the trailer, and that they be tied together ONLY at the distribution panel in a house or campground.

With a generator, the neutral and ground are NOT connected by design. To get surge suppressors and other protective devices to work right, the neutral and ground need to be tied at the generator connection, and also the generator frame is supposed to be grounded somehow, like a ground rod driven into the earth. Nobody installs a ground rod for a portable generator, so this gets skipped.

So the ground to neutral plug option is there when you use a generator, and it is important for proper functioning of GFCI and other protective hardware in the trailer.

[LittleWolf]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Airstream electrical systems are wired according to the National Electric Code. On an Airstream, there is a hot lead and a neutral lead supplying power to the 120 volt circuits. There is a ground wire (also called safety earth) that is connected to the shell and frame of the Airstream for safety. The code requires that neutral and ground be separate in the trailer, and that they be tied together ONLY at the distribution panel in a house or campground.

With a generator, the neutral and ground are NOT connected by design. To get surge suppressors and other protective devices to work right, the neutral and ground need to be tied at the generator connection, and also the generator frame is supposed to be grounded somehow, like a ground rod driven into the earth. Nobody installs a ground rod for a portable generator, so this gets skipped.

So the ground to neutral plug option is there when you use a generator, and it is important for proper functioning of GFCI and other protective hardware in the trailer.

Thank you, rmkrum, for this explanation. That I can understand! And I'll be ordering the package WITH that adaptor plug!

[billrector]

Originally Posted by LBOskiBear

Having just gone through the process I would probably just buy one from Genconnex already converted. I enjoyed the process of doing it myself, but it did take a while and I had a problem with one of the bolts that wouldn't come loose. Completely stripped it and had to pay someone to take it out for me.

With the Genconnex system, once you convert it, it only runs on propane. As part of the process, you completely remove the gasoline tank. I think folks here have talked about converting it back, but it's not a simultaneous system as with some of the other conversions.

I chose to go with the propane conversion because I didn't want to store gasoline and didn't want it stored inside my generator.

Also, as I don't have a quick-connect on my AS, I asked them to send me a 12' hose so that I could connect the generator to one of my tanks to run it.

I converted my Honda's to propane using Genconnex also. I had a very hard time getting the handle screws loose as they were very tight. I called Genconnex and they recommended using a cordless drill with #1 phillips head bit. That worked great as it provide a lot of torques right off the bat. I had no issues at all with the 2nd unit and it only took about 30 minutes. The first unit took MUCH longer!

[billrector]

Originally Posted by LBOskiBear

Having just gone through the process I would probably just buy one from Genconnex already converted. I enjoyed the process of doing it myself, but it did take a while and I had a problem with one of the bolts that wouldn't come loose. Completely stripped it and had to pay someone to take it out for me.

With the Genconnex system, once you convert it, it only runs on propane. As part of the process, you completely remove the gasoline tank. I think folks here have talked about converting it back, but it's not a simultaneous system as with some of the other conversions.

I chose to go with the propane conversion because I didn't want to store gasoline and didn't want it stored inside my generator.

Also, as I don't have a quick-connect on my AS, I asked them to send me a 12' hose so that I could connect the generator to one of my tanks to run it.

Originally Posted by gypsydad

So now that I have a new 28', I am looking at dumping my limited duty Champion 2000 for a propane unit. The 2000 worked great but not enough power to run microwave on our first trip last week in Glacier. Disappointing for sure...but it does start with one pull, like they said! :-)
I am thinking the Honda 2000i GenconneX package but that sucker is $1600. If I get it to run a single A/C unit, I still need to get the MicroAir EasyStart for another $250= $1850 total.

If I go with the 100lb Champion Dual Fuel, I get the electronic start, propane, 3100 operating watts, and it will run the AC without the MicroAir unit. Cost is $1053 from Amazon. Seems the Dual Fuel model is the way to go?

Tell me what I am missing Champion Dual Fuel vs the GenconneX 2000i unit? If I get the Dual Fuel, will it run off my low pressure port?

I looked at the sound specs on the Champion and the Honda. They both show the same db rating, but the Champion says they tested at 23' from the generator and Honda says 9'. I understand that 23 feet is considered "normal" but there is no standard on this measurement. This would mean the Honda is a quieter unit.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by billrector

I looked at the sound specs on the Champion and the Honda. They both show the same db rating, but the Champion says they tested at 23' from the generator and Honda says 9'. I understand that 23 feet is considered "normal" but there is no standard on this measurement. This would mean the Honda is a quieter unit.

It also means Champion would effectively be lying about the noise coming from their unit. That’s a shame, really. “Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.”

[gypsydad]

I have been using the new 3400W Dual Fuel Champion with electric start, which I purchased for $1045.00 (Amazon), over the last couple months on propane only. I found noise level fine. Took it all over Canada and Northern states, down thru MT, CO, WY, AZ, UT, into TX on our trip home. I used it several times day/night as needed to run Microwave and the AC a few times in UT and TX. I would say it works great, is fuel efficient, and not noticeably any more noisy then the 3000 Honda's I observed at couple sites neighbors were using. (The Honda's I saw were not propane units.)
I asked a couple neighbors when I was running the Champion Dual Fuel at night and in morning a few places, as I wanted their input. They said they didn't notice it. I also loaded the DB meter on my cell and did tests at various distances including in my F250 bed, next to the AS, and also 20' away; I found the 57db pretty accurate at around 15'-20'. If Honda and Yamaha are saying they are taking their db ratings at 9' on their 3000 models, perhaps they are quieter at that distance; I am fine with the Champion overall. I would hope for $2000+ Honda and Yamaha are offer something besides the name...

[billrector]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I have been using the new 3400W Dual Fuel Champion with electric start, which I purchased for $1045.00 (Amazon), over the last couple months on propane only. I found noise level fine. Took it all over Canada and Northern states, down thru MT, CO, WY, AZ, UT, into TX on our trip home. I used it several times day/night as needed to run Microwave and the AC a few times in UT and TX. I would say it works great, is fuel efficient, and not noticeably any more noisy then the 3000 Honda's I observed at couple sites neighbors were using. (The Honda's I saw were not propane units.)
I asked a couple neighbors when I was running the Champion Dual Fuel at night and in morning a few places, as I wanted their input. They said they didn't notice it. I also loaded the DB meter on my cell and did tests at various distances including in my F250 bed, next to the AS, and also 20' away; I found the 57db pretty accurate at around 15'-20'. If Honda and Yamaha are saying they are taking their db ratings at 9' on their 3000 models, perhaps they are quieter at that distance; I am fine with the Champion overall. I would hope for $2000+ Honda and Yamaha are offer something besides the name...

The only Honda spec I looked at was for the eu-2000. According to Honda it generates 59db at full throttle. The 3000 is closer to 68db.

[gypsydad]

Here is what I compared on my spread sheet on the 3000W rated models I looked at below:
1) Honda (Handy model) EU3000i; 2600-3000W; 49-65dbs rated; no propane; no electric start; 78lbs= $2,299 Amazon

2) Honda EU3000is; 2600-3000W; 58dbs rated; no propane; electric start; 135lbs= $2,472 Amazon

3) Champion Dual Fuel 3400; 3100W-3400W (gas) 2790-3060W (propane); 59dbs rated; electric start; 95lbs= $1,048 Amazon.

(I know you can get propane kits or buy with these already modified from a few places, but that added more $$) I wanted a stock unit with warranty that ran propane from the Mfg. and also electric start so wife could easily use. I also did not want to spend over $2K, if I didn't have to.
I have heard the Hondas run many times and looked closely at several while camping before ordering the Champion. They are nice units for sure, but this Champion seems to do the job for us just fine for now. Hope this helps clarify why I chose Champion?

[J. Morgan]

Here is my take, while it may be that ground fault protectors wont work without the neutral and ground tied together at the generator, it is also true that traditional ground faults can not happen with an unbonded generator because the shell of the trailer is not the neutral leg of the trailer.

Since neither the earth or the trailer shell are part of the generator circuit, it is my contention is that generators are intrinsically safer unbonded and in this instance the grounding rod is moot.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Here is my take, while it may be that ground fault protectors wont work without the neutral and ground tied together at the generator, it is also true that traditional ground faults can not happen with an unbonded generator because the shell of the trailer is not the neutral leg of the trailer.

Since neither the earth or the trailer shell are part of the generator circuit, it is my contention is that generators are intrinsically safer unbonded and in this instance the grounding rod is moot.

I had to check before stating this, but I was pretty sure that GFCI outlets would work independent of the ground wire, they WILL, they just cant be tested in the customary manner.

“Will a gfci work correctly without a ground wire?


Yes, a GFCI will work correctly without a ground wire. The GFCI is looking for the return current to come back on the neutral. If the return path of the current is any other path other than the neutral the GFCI will trip. Inside the GFCI are two current sensors (CTs) one on the line and one on the neutral. The 2 Cts appose one another when the current from the line returns on the neutral and the GFCI will not react. If only the line CT sees current but not the neutral, the GFCI will trip. If the current path is any other path than the neutral, then that is a ground fault. The ground path does not need to be back through the ground on the GFCI in order to trip. If the test button on your GFCI did not trip your GFCI when depressed then the GFCI is bad and should be replaced. Yes, a GFCI tester will not trip the GFCI if the ground wire on the GFCI is not attached. This is because there is no path (wire) for the line to return on for the tester other than the neutral, and the neutral is the intended path for the current. The neutral at your service entrance has a bonding jumper to ground. This is the path the current will take back to neutral in the event of a ground fault. When you felt the tingle from your saw the amount of current it was not enough to trip the GFCI. A GFCI needs 0.03 amps fault current in order to trip. Be careful working with the saw in the rain. It only takes 0.05 amps ground fault to send your heart into ventricular fibrillation. If you have the older GFCIs they were set to trip at 0.20 amps. This was found to be to high to protect lives.”

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by billrector

The only Honda spec I looked at was for the eu-2000. According to Honda it generates 59db at full throttle. The 3000 is closer to 68db.

The Honda gets much quieter if you keep it out of sight.....the db remains the same, but folks don't know what it is or where its coming from....

Bob

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

The Honda gets much quieter if you keep it out of sight.....the db remains the same, but folks don't know what it is or where its coming from....

Bob

Very good!
But in reality, almost anything will make generators quieter if you simply block the sound. I've done things like lean a sheet of plywood against the generator, or place a couple trash cans around the exhaust. It doesn't have to be rocket science, although rocket science is better.
I'm drawing up a folding three sided panel, with sound absorbing foam so I can leave it in the truck bed, but block the sound without inclosing it. The top will be open, so birds might be annoyed. I don't have a lot of headroom in the truck. With the tailgate up, and the tonneau open, I think it will be very quiet.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

It also means Champion would effectively be lying about the noise coming from their unit. That’s a shame, really. “Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.”

NO ..it doesn't. It means that Champion used the industry standard and that Honda did not.

In addition, the distance Honda used may have actually muffled resonance and therefore avoided mechanical noises on the opposite side of the unit...thereby steering the apparent lower db reading in their favor. If so, it would be HONDA that would be "lying" by your definition.

The reason for standards is for the purposes and usefulness of comparisions. The use of different standards prevents useful comparisons. Yes, the Honda is definitely quiet. That doesn't mean it's db tests were valid in comparison to others , however.

They didn't even bother to utilize the same make/model (or calibration) of soundmeter!

Example: Honda tests their gens inside sound-rooms with absorbent walls and screened microphones, with the unit sitting on foam. Champion tests their gens in an assembly room with concrete floor and fiberglass insulated R-panel walls. In such "comparisons" even the Honda tested in the Champion testing-room would fail it's own promotional db reading.

What these gens sound like out in the woods hidden behind a vehicle or tree is quite different than promotional literature wording.

[Martee]

Originally Posted by Boxite

NO ..it doesn't. It means that Champion used the industry standard and that Honda did not.

In addition, the distance Honda used may have actually muffled resonance and therefore avoided mechanical noises on the opposite side of the unit...thereby steering the apparent lower db reading in their favor. If so, it would be HONDA that would be "lying" by your definition.

The reason for standards is for the purposes and usefulness of comparisions. The use of different standards prevents useful comparisons. Yes, the Honda is definitely quiet. That doesn't mean it's db tests were valid in comparison to others , however.

They didn't even bother to utilize the same make/model (or calibration) of soundmeter!

Example: Honda tests their gens inside sound-rooms with absorbent walls and screened microphones, with the unit sitting on foam. Champion tests their gens in an assembly room with concrete floor and fiberglass insulated R-panel walls. In such "comparisons" even the Honda tested in the Champion testing-room would fail it's own promotional db reading.

What these gens sound like out in the woods hidden behind a vehicle or tree is quite different than promotional literature wording.

How do you know the acoustic testing conditions used by each company and such precise specifics of the rooms?

As part of my flood/fire home restoration business here in Texas; I have owned dozens of Honda Generators and Champions also. Overall, my customers feel the Honda just sounds more quiet. However, they both are great Gensets and highly reliable. Should potentially last 10 years or more in RV service, with good maintenance and care.