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07-11-2022, 09:05 AM
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#21
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1492
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That's definitely a problem but not one that causes a shock.
__________________
Brian
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07-11-2022, 11:24 AM
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#22
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1492
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That breaker looks corroded. Did it get wet? How? How could there be a 100 “sub leg” since I have never heard of any RV with more than 75 amps and those are giant super luxury motor homes comparable to a portable house.
I could imagine a short in that breaker or another damaged part of the breaker panel or another breaker, especially if there was a lot of corrosion.
Have you tested the trailer exterior again—not with your finger, but a tester, preferabley before and after removing that breaker?
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it, and it is sold and replaced by a 2017 Thor ACE 27.2 motorhome.
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07-11-2022, 05:25 PM
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#23
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3 Rivet Member 
2019 23' Flying Cloud
Waterford
, New York
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 151
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Electrical Shock.
100 amp sub leg from main panel to panel with 50 amp breaker for Rv outlet. Also found bad converter in Rv. Did not get wet, aluminum wire connection loosened up.
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07-11-2022, 06:58 PM
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#24
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,813
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Now I understand the sub leg. They still use aluminum wire? I thought with all the problems with it—bimetallic corrosion—no one still used it. I guess the corrosion is for that reason. Be sure to get a three stage converter to avoid cooking your batteries.
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it, and it is sold and replaced by a 2017 Thor ACE 27.2 motorhome.
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07-11-2022, 07:10 PM
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#25
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3 Rivet Member 
2019 23' Flying Cloud
Waterford
, New York
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene
Now I understand the sub leg. They still use aluminum wire? I thought with all the problems with it—bimetallic corrosion—no one still used it. I guess the corrosion is for that reason. Be sure to get a three stage converter to avoid cooking your batteries.
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Yea they still use aluminum, it’s only advantage being cost.
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07-11-2022, 08:40 PM
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#26
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Lot's of aluminum still gets used, and it's all the power companies use. The very early solid branch circuit aluminum wire, about 1965, caused all the problems and aluminum wiring has been a dirty word ever since. Truth is the alloys became much improved very quickly but it was too late as the fires had already happened and the solid branch circuit sizes went away around 1975 for lack of demand but the larger, stranded sizes are still in use every day.
Use of an antioxidant and proper torqueing is the key to a good aluminum connection, just about all terminations today are rated for copper or aluminum except for 15 and 20 amp devices.
I expect with copper wire having tripled since Covid we will be seeing larger circuits almost exclusively aluminum.
__________________
Brian
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07-11-2022, 09:25 PM
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#27
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3 Rivet Member 
2019 23' Flying Cloud
Waterford
, New York
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSNO60
Lot's of aluminum still gets used, and it's all the power companies use. The very early solid branch circuit aluminum wire, about 1965, caused all the problems and aluminum wiring has been a dirty word ever since. Truth is the alloys became much improved very quickly but it was too late as the fires had already happened and the solid branch circuit sizes went away around 1975 for lack of demand but the larger, stranded sizes are still in use every day.
Use of an antioxidant and proper torqueing is the key to a good aluminum connection, just about all terminations today are rated for copper or aluminum except for 15 and 20 amp devices.
I expect with copper wire having tripled since Covid we will be seeing larger circuits almost exclusively aluminum.
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You are correct, proper installation is the key with aluminum. This is my fault, had a problem with this breaker getting hot a year ago and I cleaned and torqued but I should have replaced it then. Also thinking of popping for a thermal imaging camera to catch failures like this before they happen.
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07-12-2022, 12:14 PM
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#28
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 16,742
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Hi
Backing up a bit ....
Breaker good / breaker bad, either way you still should not get current off the skin of the trailer. The ground wire is there to prevent that happening. The breaker and ground wire are completely separate parts of the system.
Why would things change when you fix the breaker? The neutral tries to keep things close to ground by balancing current from the two hot legs. A breaker with issues may cause the neutral to struggle a bit. Leakage from the neutral might change in this case. That's nice, but the leakage still should return through the ground wire and not show up on the skin of the trailer.
As a guess:
If part of the cabe to the box is aluminum, all of it is aluminum. Start going through the connections and making sure they are *all* correct. Spend a bit more time on the ground wire(s) ....Also check the other end of that cable.
Bob
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07-12-2022, 03:58 PM
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#29
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Site Team

1994 25' Excella
Waukesha
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 6,362
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While it's true that a properly functioning ground should keep the electric from zapping you when touching the skin, it won't cure the problem.
If you are experiencing a hot skin condition, you have a hot leaf making contact with the ground somewhere, and fixing this is a priority (along with fixing the ground).
__________________
Richard
11018
1994 Excella 25 'Gertie' Follow the build on Gertie!
1999 Suburban LS 2500 w/7.4L V8 'Bert'
1974 GMC 4108a - Custom Coach Land Cruiser 'The Bus' (Sold)
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07-12-2022, 06:25 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master 
2007 30' Classic
KW
, Ontario
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard5933
While it's true that a properly functioning ground should keep the electric from zapping you when touching the skin, it won't cure the problem.
If you are experiencing a hot skin condition, you have a hot leaf making contact with the ground somewhere, and fixing this is a priority (along with fixing the ground).
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If you have a hot skin condition then you don't have a grounded system. If the trailer frame is grounded then it's not possible to have a potential on it. You may not even have a house system that's grounded. I once was called into a plant that was struck by lightning and was experiencing massive issues. The entire plant was down. The issue was that there was no ground on a electrical panel 5 stories underground. I had them drill to install a ground rod and after 5 tries we still didn't have ground 5 stories underground. In the end I was able to find ground in a water pipe. The system finally came up. It was a great lesson in grounding.
Make sure you have a grounded system. Just because there's a wire there doesn't mean it's grounded.
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07-12-2022, 07:15 PM
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#31
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Site Team

1994 25' Excella
Waukesha
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 6,362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot
If you have a hot skin condition then you don't have a grounded system. If the trailer frame is grounded then it's not possible to have a potential on it. You may not even have a house system that's grounded. I once was called into a plant that was struck by lightning and was experiencing massive issues. The entire plant was down. The issue was that there was no ground on a electrical panel 5 stories underground. I had them drill to install a ground rod and after 5 tries we still didn't have ground 5 stories underground. In the end I was able to find ground in a water pipe. The system finally came up. It was a great lesson in grounding.
Make sure you have a grounded system. Just because there's a wire there doesn't mean it's grounded.
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True, but my point was that if you have a hot skin condition voltage is getting to the skin which shouldn't be. A good ground will eliminate the immediate danger, but it doesn't correct the fact that voltage is getting to the skin - it shouldn't be. If all that's done is to correct the poor/missing ground, then danger is only as far away as a little corrosion on the grounding lug of the shore cord.
A 21 year old bus conversion owner recently suffered a heart attack after being electrocuted by a hot skin. His ground lug was broken, and there was a short from hot to the skin somewhere which had remained hidden until his ground failed.
__________________
Richard
11018
1994 Excella 25 'Gertie' Follow the build on Gertie!
1999 Suburban LS 2500 w/7.4L V8 'Bert'
1974 GMC 4108a - Custom Coach Land Cruiser 'The Bus' (Sold)
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07-12-2022, 08:44 PM
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#32
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,813
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It is clear that there are many possibilities here. If the Op has tried all the simple stuff, and the skin is still hot, an expert may well be necessary.
As stated above, ground problems or not, it is necessary to track down how the skin has been rendered hot. Is it a compromised ground? A loose wire touching something that leads to the skin? Corrosion of a wire of some type where the corrosion touches the skin? A messed up converter and/or breaker panel? First thing now would be to measure the voltage at the skin to get a better idea what's going on. I'm sur there are pkwenfrty of other issues possible. The worst I can think of is 120 v. cable (Romex) in the wall that has the insulating covering worn off inside the wall. A small break in the insulation could cause much less than 120 v., but if it got that far, eventually more insulation would wear off and the full potential (pun warning) of the problem would be realized.
Automotive (trailer wiring is similar) electrical wiring has defeated many mechanics and even electricians. Since the 12 v. circuitry uses the body as a ground unlike the 120 v. circuitry, if the skin measures 12.7 v. (yeh, 12 volts is not actually 12), then you probably have a 12 v. circuit or ground problem. If more, then the 120 v. circuitry is probably the issue. I use "probably" because cars and trailer electrics can drive people crazy.
I was impressed by the story of no ground 50' below the surface. I owned a house that I discovered had no ground to the actual ground. The owner (he did his own electrical work) had attached a ground clamp to a metal pipe as if often done, but the pipe went to PVC and then outside to a cistern that filled form a water company. Maybe he assumed the house plumbing (copper) was enough or didn't understand PVC is not a conductor. I bought a ten foot ground rod and pounded it into the ground and attached it to the house ground. I then checked to see if it was working and it was. Note that a ground rod driven in very dry soil may not be a sufficient ground, something that may explain no ground 50' down. Hardly anyone checks the ground when they buy a house and in the very dry deserts of the west, that is pretty important.
Usually these things are found by doing the simplest things. Of course, you have to know what the simplest things are. Then you work your way toward the harder and harder ones. It is process of elimination. Obviously the OP has been inside the trailer to find the corroded breaker—just insulate yourself from anything metal inside and when going through the door.
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it, and it is sold and replaced by a 2017 Thor ACE 27.2 motorhome.
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07-12-2022, 09:14 PM
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#33
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Just to clarify, a ground rod is not going to solve this. Ground rods are not there to clear faults and in fact will never clear a fault at household voltage levels. The lack of ground rods at the house is not the reason for hot skin. Water pipes are not to be used for grounding either and has been prohibited by code for many years now for the very reason Gene mentioned. It sounds like the "lost ground" at 5 stories down was not the actual "grounding conductor" but the "grounded conductor" aka Neutral which is totally different and carries current to complete the circuit which is why 5 ground rods didn't fix it because the earth does not carry enough current to complete the circuit no matter how many ground rods you pound into it. The water pipe does, when it is bonded to the service neutral, but very dangerous and definitely never legal. In essence you are now using the water pipe to carry all the unbalanced load instead of a wire, very dangerous. AC circuits work fine without grounding conductors but not without grounded conductors. The grounding conductors are never even used unless a ground fault occurs then they are used momentarily to open the circuit protective device.
By the way if your house didn't have ground rods everything would still work normally and breakers would still trip on ground faults, you would probably never know they weren't there and would never have an issue. Their main purpose is for voltage spikes (think high voltage primary lines coming into contact with secondary lines) and lightning. Their other main purpose is to keep up the income stream of the grounding electrode products manufacturers who are also very active in the code making processes.
You don't have to take my word for just ask nationally recognized grounding and bonding expert Mike Holt, or Mike Sokol.
__________________
Brian
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07-13-2022, 08:57 AM
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#34
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Not to downplay the role of ground rods from the utility perspective, at 7,200 volts the earth will definitely carry a substantial amount. At 240 volts not so much.
__________________
Brian
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07-13-2022, 09:39 AM
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#35
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3 Rivet Member 
2019 23' Flying Cloud
Waterford
, New York
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 151
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Good morning all,and thanks again for the input.
Here is the recap:
The camper lives at my business for summer. It is plugged into an 50 amp outlet via dog bone and autoformer off a hundred amp sub leg that also power other various pieces of equipment. When I washed it Sunday I noticed the skin was hot, not full voltage but stray current from some ware. I got tie up with customers so just left it unplugged till Monday. Monday morning I had equipment problems and found bad breaker on sub leg. After repairing that I discover Rv charger failed with bad capacitors. Since the 12 volt negative is common with the Rv frame I believe the charger to be the source of the problem. I don’t know if the breaker problem caused the failure or if it fails after running continuously for four years. Either way the hot skin condition is cured with the charger removed and I am currently waiting on a replacement. Upgrading to the unit that will do agm or lithium battery’s.
Regards,
Larry
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07-13-2022, 09:49 AM
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#36
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Thanks for the update and that sure looks like a pleasant place to work in the Summer.
__________________
Brian
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07-13-2022, 12:28 PM
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#37
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,813
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Brian,
Thanks for that info about grounding. Now I live in another house and never checked the grounding because life is busy and I didn’t think about it. I have had some issues that I think may be lightning caused. We are at the end of the power company system and there’s a lot of dry thunderstorms here. I think we get power surges and have protected everything electronic with surge protectors. But I have had burn marks on the one used by the instant water heater. Time to check grounding (just did, it is attached at incoming pipe from well, can’t find anything else, but power company transformer is nearby on ground to proTect views near national monument) I suspect the incoming water pipe is used for a ground here but is not PVC. I also am sure almost every house in the US is grounded via water pipe. I recognize the danger, not sure how often it results in injury or worse.
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it, and it is sold and replaced by a 2017 Thor ACE 27.2 motorhome.
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07-13-2022, 12:49 PM
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#38
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene
Brian,
Thanks for that info about grounding. Now I live in another house and never checked the grounding because life is busy and I didn’t think about it. I have had some issues that I think may be lightning caused. We are at the end of the power company system and there’s a lot of dry thunderstorms here. I think we get power surges and have protected everything electronic with surge protectors. But I have had burn marks on the one used by the instant water heater. Time to check grounding (just did, it is attached at incoming pipe from well, can’t find anything else, but power company transformer is nearby on ground to proTect views near national monument) I suspect the incoming water pipe is used for a ground here but is not PVC. I also am sure almost every house in the US is grounded via water pipe. I recognize the danger, not sure how often it results in injury or worse.
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The water pipe thing is confusing as we are talking about two different things. As far as the grounding electrode, a metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth for at least 10 feet is required to be used as one of the buildings grounding electrode, notice it says "one of" which means you are required to supplement that with other electrodes such as rods or Ufer. The supplemental electrodes came into the code when non-metallic piping started to appear, so when you change out your water pipe to plastic you are still covered.
The other rule has to do with "Bonding". NEC requires all metal piping systems within buildings to be bonded to the service neutral in case of electrical contact to a pipe in the building. In the case of the water pipe it is done with a pipe clamp usually where it enters the building. Notice that since this is the same water pipe that is in the ground, this action also fulfills the requirement that the part in the ground be used for one of the grounding electrodes, and if the one in the ground is or becomes non-metallic in the future then the clamp on the part entering the house still covers the bonding requirements for the metallic piping system. So you are accomplishing both requirements with one action, and if either of the metallic parts go away the other is still connected.
Where some get confused is when they assume you can use the piping for a conductor, code forbids using the piping for grounding or bonding to loads in the building because if any of the piping gets opened or replaced with plastic it can no longer conduct current to the service neutral and now the part in the building can become energized.
__________________
Brian
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07-13-2022, 01:55 PM
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#39
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Rivet Master 
2007 30' Classic
KW
, Ontario
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,014
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Using water pipes as ground is and still is legal where I live. Yes all connections need to jumpered. In a five story underground vault that is concrete encased there is no easy way of getting a ground. Plus, it is the plant's responsibility to do it according to their procedures and rules along with the code which I don't believe was broken 30 years ago. Also, when you have a 300,000 square foot freezer that is full of beef you are going to do whatever it takes and worry about the details later.
I'm not suggesting driving in ground rods or connecting to water pipes. I'm not suggesting either that you break local or state laws either. My point is simply that ground may not be ground.
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07-13-2022, 02:09 PM
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#40
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diesel maniac
Airstream - Other
Tucson
, AZ
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot
Using water pipes as ground is and still is legal where I live. Yes all connections need to jumpered. In a five story underground vault that is concrete encased there is no easy way of getting a ground. Plus, it is the plant's responsibility to do it according to their procedures and rules along with the code which I don't believe was broken 30 years ago. Also, when you have a 300,000 square foot freezer that is full of beef you are going to do whatever it takes and worry about the details later.
I'm not suggesting driving in ground rods or connecting to water pipes. I'm not suggesting either that you break local or state laws either. My point is simply that ground may not be ground.
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Understood.
Being a plant with on site maintenance and supervision you guys get special exceptions in the code which I have never looked at because I was not in that type of environment, but I can recall many parts of the code that have exceptions for on site maintenance and supervision by qualified individuals. Having done some light commercial I do not envy you guys who worked in large industrial settings and have a lot of respect for you working on those systems which can kill you in the blink of an eye, and always under the gun to keep things going.
PS I also see you are in Canada and you guys have the CEC.
__________________
Brian
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