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Old 07-05-2011, 06:16 PM   #201
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At least the wire is copper.
I would connect the large black wire form shore power to the 30 amp breaker, it will serve as the main. The red jumper wire across the top tells me that.
Then if I am correct there are three small black wires, two of which are already connected to the other two breakers.
With the large black wire connected to the 30 amp breaker and the shore power plugged in and the 30 amp breaker on. Turn one of the 20 amp breakers on and then check to see what works ie outlets or the AC. Then do the same with the other 20 amp breaker.
Once you have ID'd the wires connected to the breakers. Then disconnect one of the wires and connect the 3rd small black wire. It could be an outlet for the converter or the refer.
Once you have identified all three wires you can make a determination on how to proceed.
I believe current electrical code limits the number of devices ie outlets, light fixtures etc to 8 on a 20 amp circuit. I would bet you don't have 8 outlets in the trailer.
It is not good practice to connect more than 1 wire to a circuit breaker, however it is an acceptable practice to connect multiple wires with with a wire nut (of the appropriate size).
Lets say you have 6 outlets throughout the trailer that are connected to one of the 3 small black wires. I would bet that the AC is connected to one of the remaining two black wires. If so the AC should be on a breaker by itself.
Now all that remains is the 3rd black wire; if it has no more than 2 devices connected then just connect it along with a short jumper wire to the black wire with the 6 outlets. Use a wire nut and make the connection inside the distribution panel. So now you have the 2 small black wires connected together with the jumper wire. Then connect the other end of the jumper wire to the 20 amp circuit breaker.
I would leave the old pump installed. They were really good pumps. One would be wise to get a spare belt though. If you buy a new pump; keep it (the new pump) for the spare. You will probably never use it.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:33 PM   #202
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Yeah, I remember your town now. We did pass right by! Maybe next resto rally we can stop or meet you at the rally! At the rate we're going this summer, we won't have the trailer to the point of bringing her to the rally next summer, maybe the year after. Family things come first and new grandbaby needs a crib ( which is going to be really cool made of maple with purple heartwood accents!).

Kay
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:20 PM   #203
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plug it in?

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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
With the large black wire connected to the 30 amp breaker and the shore power plugged in and the 30 amp breaker on. Turn one of the 20 amp breakers on and then check to see what works ie outlets or the AC. Then do the same with the other 20 amp breaker.
So, can I plug it in without having the converter in place? There are loose wires all over the place that I don't have a clue as to where they go. I don't want to fry myself. Of course the wires were loose even when the old converter was in and I'm still alive. Just none of the 12V lights worked - only the a/c and some of the outlets. Should I just put those little plastic thingys over the ends of all the exposed wires and call it good?

Another question: If I want to figure out what's what with the 12v stuff (the wires in the old fuse box), do I use the meter and the battery charger to test them? Or just the meter with a long wire attached? If I'm going to replace the fuse box with a new one I will need to know what's what so that I can use the right size fuses.
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:41 PM   #204
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By lose wires are you saying there are Romex wires hanging out in places? If so put a wire nut on each conductor to keep them from shorting out. Then go ahead a fire the thing up.
As for checking the 12 volt system; use the battery charger, connect the black wire of the charger to the skin or metal frame. Then use the red lead to test out the circuits. You don't even have to remove the old converter. Just disconnect the 120 volt AC power from it and pull all of the fuses out. Then connect the red lead of the charger to the end of the fuse holder that each wire is connected to. Make a note of what color wire does what.
Remember the battery charger is Red= positive and Black = negative. But your trailer is Black = positve and White = negative.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:13 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minno View Post
Yeah, I remember your town now. We did pass right by! Family things come first and new grandbaby needs a crib ( which is going to be really cool made of maple with purple heartwood accents!).

Kay
A new grandbaby! Wow! Nothing is better than that - even a new (old) Airstream! Send pictures of the crib when it is done - with the baby in it of course.

I'm sure when you went through Saguache you said "what a pitiful little town"... It does look that way but we're working on changing things.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:23 AM   #206
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12V test

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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
connect the black wire of the charger to the skin or metal frame. Then use the red lead to test out the circuits. You don't even have to remove the old converter. Just disconnect the 120 volt AC power from it and pull all of the fuses out. Then connect the red lead of the charger to the end of the fuse holder that each wire is connected to. Make a note of what color wire does what.
Remember the battery charger is Red= positive and Black = negative. But your trailer is Black = positve and White = negative.
So, when I connect the charger, I tell what's what because the lights will come on? There are no fuses in the 12V fuse box. Will that make a difference? If I decide to replace all the 12V wiring, I'll have to run the wires through wire chases to get it to the overhead lights? Do you think I need to replace the 12V wiring? would it be less apt to be a problem than the 120VAC wiring?

I've already removed the old converter (it weighed a TON!) and will cover all the exposed wires with the wire nuts to make sure we're safe before plugging in the shore power.

When I do the 12V test I assume I'm NOT connected to shore power?
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:47 AM   #207
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Is this overkill?

This is my plan (if all approve):

Replace the breaker box and breakers and put in all new outlets. There will only be puck lights added (that plug in to a regular outlet) in the way of lighting. All other lights are 12VDC.

Breaker #1 - 30 amp - main breaker
Breaker #2 - 20 amp - air conditioner (do I need a special kind of breaker for the a/c?)
Breaker #3 - 20 amp - 4 new outlets
Breaker #4 - 20 amp - 3 new outlets and puck lights in kitchen area
Breaker #5 - 20 amp - dedicated outlet for fridge
Breaker #6 - 20 amp - dedicated outlet for microwave

I was thinking of using the existing wiring that goes to the a/c but could run wiring through overhead cabinets then a short piece through a wire chase to the a/c so that everything would be new.

For the 12VDC:

Fridge - 20 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire
Overhead lights - 15 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire
Propane detector - 5 amp fuse - 16 gauge wire
Water pump - 20 amp fuse - 12 gauge wire
Heater -??? (heater is untested but looks like it has a 120VAC plug and a squirrel cage blower thing - do I need another dedicated line for that?) I'm not sure it even has 12VDC going to it. I'll take pics of it today and post them.
Converter - 20 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire

What do you think? Too much? Too little? Just right?
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:45 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucymcdog View Post
This is my plan (if all approve):

Replace the breaker box and breakers and put in all new outlets. There will only be puck lights added (that plug in to a regular outlet) in the way of lighting. All other lights are 12VDC.

Breaker #1 - 30 amp - main breaker
Breaker #2 - 20 amp - air conditioner (do I need a special kind of breaker for the a/c?)
Breaker #3 - 20 amp - 4 new outlets
Breaker #4 - 20 amp - 3 new outlets and puck lights in kitchen area
Breaker #5 - 20 amp - dedicated outlet for fridge
Breaker #6 - 20 amp - dedicated outlet for microwave

I was thinking of using the existing wiring that goes to the a/c but could run wiring through overhead cabinets then a short piece through a wire chase to the a/c so that everything would be new.

For the 12VDC:

Fridge - 20 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire
Overhead lights - 15 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire
Propane detector - 5 amp fuse - 16 gauge wire
Water pump - 20 amp fuse - 12 gauge wire
Heater -??? (heater is untested but looks like it has a 120VAC plug and a squirrel cage blower thing - do I need another dedicated line for that?) I'm not sure it even has 12VDC going to it. I'll take pics of it today and post them.
Converter - 20 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire

What do you think? Too much? Too little? Just right?
You'd need a big breaker box to have 6 120V breakers, and you're putting in 100 amps of breakers to run off 30-amp service, so it seems like overkill to me. I don't think an RV fridge needs a dedicated 20A circuit, for example. I don't know what the "magic number" is but I suspect it's less than 6.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:28 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucymcdog View Post
So, when I connect the charger, I tell what's what because the lights will come on? There are no fuses in the 12V fuse box. Will that make a difference? If I decide to replace all the 12V wiring, I'll have to run the wires through wire chases to get it to the overhead lights? Do you think I need to replace the 12V wiring? would it be less apt to be a problem than the 120VAC wiring?

I've already removed the old converter (it weighed a TON!) and will cover all the exposed wires with the wire nuts to make sure we're safe before plugging in the shore power.

When I do the 12V test I assume I'm NOT connected to shore power?
Not having fuses will make no difference if you connect the positive lead from the battery charger to each wire end of the fuse holder.

Yes, if you decide to replace all the 12 volt wiring, you'll need to run new in wire chases, or unrivet wall panels enough to run wires inside the walls. So, if you can determine what's what and that the wires are good, then you really won't have a need to replace them. Look at what you can see. It the insulation still good? Not brittle and falling apart? Not chewed by critters? Those are the two primary concerns with old wiring. So, if it looks ok and tests ok, then it is ok.

Plugged into shore power or not would not make a difference for the 12 volt wiring tests since you removed the converter.

That help at all?

Chris
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:53 PM   #210
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Hi Lindy,

I think it looks ok, with the following notations:

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Originally Posted by lucymcdog View Post
Breaker #2 - 20 amp - air conditioner (do I need a special kind of breaker for the a/c?)

Nope, just a regular one.

A separate breaker for the fridge seems overkill. This is a 2-way fridge, right? So it runs on either 110 VAC or propane? If yes, then while in 110 VAC mode, the current draw is not that high. You could easily put it on the same circuit as the 4 new outlets. Now, having said that, that only frees up one circuit, so in panel space, youíre not really saving anything. If you use all twin circuit breakers, then you can do all 6 of your circuits in the space of 3 physical breakers. And yes, they make a twin 30/20 amp breaker. I bought one for Little Girl.

Quote:
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I was thinking of using the existing wiring that goes to the a/c but could run wiring through overhead cabinets then a short piece through a wire chase to the a/c so that everything would be new.

Sounds good to me.

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Originally Posted by lucymcdog View Post
Heater -??? (heater is untested but looks like it has a 120VAC plug and a squirrel cage blower thing - do I need another dedicated line for that?) I'm not sure it even has 12VDC going to it. I'll take pics of it today and post them.
This is the furnace, right? RV furnaces are typically 12 VDC, but youíll need to verify if itís 12 volt or 110 VAC. The label should tell you. Or the existing wiring connected to it.

If itís 12 VDC, then yes, I would run a separate circuit for it. Just to be safe, use a 20 amp 12 or 14 gauge wire. Again, look at the wire feeding it now, and make sure you do not use a small wire to connect it to your new fuse panel.

If itís really 110 VAC, then you can tie it into one of the breakers. I think I would use the fridge breaker for the furnace, and move the fridge to one of the other breakers. Although not in keeping with code, but still perfectly safe, you could use the a/c breaker for the furnace as well, since youíll never run both the a/c and the furnace at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucymcdog View Post
Converter - 20 amp fuse - 14 gauge wire

Actually, the converter needs to be plugged into one of the 110 VAC outlets, or wired into a 110 VAC breaker. The 12 VDC output of the converter will feed your new 12 volt fuse block.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:25 PM   #211
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I would only replace the wiring that looks damaged. I doubt if any of the wiring inside the skin would be damaged unless the trailer was in a wreck and has been repaired.
A standard 20 amp breaker will work for the AC.
I would combine breakers 3,4 & 5
I would combine the micro wave with the converter.
A 1000 watt microwave will draw about 9 amps.
Your converter will draw about 5 amps if it is fully loaded to the 45 amp capacity. I don't think that will be the case.

If you are planning on installing a 3 way fridge, you will need 12 volts.

A 20 amp fuse would require # 12 wire.

In the procedure I outlined the fuses are not required since you will be down stream (so to speak). You would connect the red lead of the charger to the fuse clip just above where the wire is connected. The fuse clip is just a convenient way to connect the big clip on the charger to the wire.
When you get power to the overhead light circuit, don't forget that each light has it's own switch and they may need to be turned on. And of course a good bulb and socket as well as a good connection to ground/common.
You should be able to locate the wire that feeds the lights there may be more than one circuit for lights. You should also be able to find the wire that feeds the water pump, don't forget it has a switch as well.
I have attached a drawing that I think is for '64 and '65 AS
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:10 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
I would only replace the wiring that looks damaged. I doubt if any of the wiring inside the skin would be damaged unless the trailer was in a wreck and has been repaired.
A standard 20 amp breaker will work for the AC.
I would combine breakers 3,4 & 5
I would combine the micro wave with the converter.
A 1000 watt microwave will draw about 9 amps.
Your converter will draw about 5 amps if it is fully loaded to the 45 amp capacity. I don't think that will be the case.

If you are planning on installing a 3 way fridge, you will need 12 volts.

A 20 amp fuse would require # 12 wire.

In the procedure I outlined the fuses are not required since you will be down stream (so to speak). You would connect the red lead of the charger to the fuse clip just above where the wire is connected. The fuse clip is just a convenient way to connect the big clip on the charger to the wire.
When you get power to the overhead light circuit, don't forget that each light has it's own switch and they may need to be turned on. And of course a good bulb and socket as well as a good connection to ground/common.
You should be able to locate the wire that feeds the lights there may be more than one circuit for lights. You should also be able to find the wire that feeds the water pump, don't forget it has a switch as well.
I have attached a drawing that I think is for '64 and '65 AS
Thanks - I will go to plan B - which I haven't made yet but I think I can simplify things a bunch. The trailer has not been in a wreck, the insulation that I've seen is still soft and I haven't seen any signs of critters chewing on anything anywhere.

I've got to go to the "big city" (Salida) tomorrow so won't get to work on the trailer at all. At least I can get a new breaker box and however many breakers I decide to go with. Stay tuned...

Could you send me the thumbnails in a different format or maybe through email? I couldn't blow them up enough to be able to see any of the writing.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:58 PM   #213
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furnace

Here are pictures of the furnace - which resides in the cabinet under the sink. I thought that was kind of weird. There are vents in the door but they are probably just 4" x 6". And I'm pretty sure the furnace is electric - not 12VDC. At least there is a plug there for it to plug into.

There are also a couple of loose wires that I don't know where they belong.

Should I try to save this thing or get a new one? The furnace is vented at the back to the outside.
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:44 AM   #214
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Can you find the manufacturers label. It should provide the model number. I can't tell if it's a Suburban or what. There may also be a label showing the power requirements.
I can see that the gas line has been disconnected. But can't read enough of the printed info on the fan housing. It looks more like operating and maintenance instructions.
The fan motor looks like it has brushes which means it is "OLD". Can you read the label on the motor? It may be a "Universal" motor and only run on 120 volts AC or DC; not 12 volts.
Most of the corded hand tools like skill saws, drill motors and reciprocating saws have "Universal" motors which have brushes.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:04 PM   #215
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Here's what I found

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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
Can you find the manufacturers label. It should provide the model number. I can't tell if it's a Suburban or what. There may also be a label showing the power requirements.
I can see that the gas line has been disconnected. But can't read enough of the printed info on the fan housing. It looks more like operating and maintenance instructions.
The fan motor looks like it has brushes which means it is "OLD". Can you read the label on the motor? It may be a "Universal" motor and only run on 120 volts AC or DC; not 12 volts.
Most of the corded hand tools like skill saws, drill motors and reciprocating saws have "Universal" motors which have brushes.
On the squirrel cage housing:

International Oil Burner Company
St. Louis, MO
Model DC 1525
Input 25,000 BTU/hr
Output 20,000 BTU/hr
Elec. Rating - D.C. 12 V 9 amps

On the motor itself:

Universal Elec. Co
No. 20 Auto
1550 8 (or 6 or S?) - 093

I discovered a little door at the back and I'm not sure what is behind it. It looks sort of like the lever to turn on the propane but it is way in the back behind the blower thing and would be really hard to get to.

The wiring coming into the furnace look like AC wiring but who knows???? The way this thing is wired up it is hard to tell AC from DC. BTW, I haven't tested the 12V with the battery charger yet - We have to pull it out of the garage so I can get to the back end to test it.

If I take this furnace out would I need to put another one in the same space since the vent (big and ugly on the outside) is there?

I've posted more pics -
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:37 PM   #216
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It's obviously 12 volt DC from the info you posted.
I see an "ON/OFF switch, which may power the blower as well as the controls for the furnace.
I would bet it is the original furnace and may work just fine. In the second pic of the motor you will see a little brass funnel like device on the top of the motor; it is for lubricating the motor bearing. This thing is "Original"
Can you find any kind of electrical drawing on the cover or any where?

My guess would be that a "sail switch" is behind the little door. It makes sure there is air flowing (the blower is running) which allows the main burner to light.
Also it looks like one of the rubber pads and the bolt is missing from the motor mount. Easy fix.
Is there a thermostat anywhere in the trailer?
There should also be a couple of wires going to a high temp cut off switch (to shut the burner down if things get too hot) in the plenum as well as a switch to keep the blower running long enough to cool things down after the thermostat is satisfied and the burner is shut off in the normal mode.
Do you have access to the burner and plenum to check to see if things are rusted out or cracked? Also to check for any evidence of mud daubers and the like in the burner area.
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Old 07-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #217
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Uh...

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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
Can you find any kind of electrical drawing on the cover or any where?

Is there a thermostat anywhere in the trailer?

Do you have access to the burner and plenum to check to see if things are rusted out or cracked? Also to check for any evidence of mud daubers and the like in the burner area.

What's a plenum?


I think there is a drawing on the bottom of the blower- I'll have to lay on the floor and try to get my head under the thing. I'll do that tomorrow and see if I can see it.

I have not seen any thermostat anywhere in the trailer other than the new one the PO left still in the box.

Is the burner on the outside in that big vent thing? I can probably take that off and look in there.
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Old 07-09-2011, 07:08 PM   #218
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Lindy discard that furnace as soon as possible. Inland Andy has written here on the forums how dangerous those furnaces are. They are very prone to explosion.
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:47 PM   #219
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Whoa!

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Lindy discard that furnace as soon as possible. Inland Andy has written here on the forums how dangerous those furnaces are. They are very prone to explosion.
Really? It's going to go to the dump as soon as I can figure out how to take the silly thing out!

THANKS!!!

Lindy
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:40 PM   #220
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Sounds like good advice from wasagachris.
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