Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-07-2005, 08:28 AM   #1
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Brake fuse

Does one fuse the brakes. The wiring diagrams don't show fusing for any of the trailer running lights, ect. While some of these curcuits may fuse in the TW it looks like the brake line comes unfused off the tw control panel aux post to the Brake controller then on to the brakes. Should a fuse be in there somewhere to protect the brake controller. I was thinking an inline fuse at the connector box in the trailer for each axel.
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 08:48 AM   #2
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Protecting an electrical brake line with a fuse or circuit breaker is taboo.

The idea is to have some kind of brakes, even though a short or partial short developed.

Partial shorts usually come from worn out brake magnets.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 09:01 AM   #3
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Thanks Andy. Kind of thought that may be the case. Better to have brakes with smokin wire than good wire and no brakes.
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 09:45 AM   #4
Rivet Master

 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
Images: 59
Isn't there supposed to be a fuse or circuit breaker in front of the brake controller?
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:14 AM   #5
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Don.

Absoluely not.

The theory is that even with most shorts, you will still have some braking.

It is far better to be able to stop, than to be worried about some smoking wires.

The short can be fixed. Your life cannot.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 10:57 AM   #6
Rivet Master

 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
Images: 59
I'm just repeating what I see in the installation instructions for brake controllers. Most specify a 20a circuit breaker.

I don't follow your logic about being able to stop, rather than worry about smoking wires. If the brake circuit is grounded enough to trip a 20 amp breaker, then there's probably nothing getting through to the magnets anyway. And if you have a short on one side only, feeding full amps to the other side could cause the trailer to trip sideways.

I think you should have a fuse or breaker in front of the breakaway switch too.

Just my personal opinion, not a theory.
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 11:11 AM   #7
a.k.a. Ambassador Tim
 
Safari Tim's Avatar
 
1960 28' Ambassador
Northern , California
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,921
Images: 35
I agree Don, a fuse or circuit breaker is needed. At least you won't be on FIRE when you can't stop ;-)

To clarify, the circuit breaker/fuse is in the tow vehicle on the wire that feeds the brake controller. And all fusing is done right next to the battery positive post, as close as possible.

There is no fuse for the brakes on the trailer itself.
__________________
-Tim
1960 International Ambassador 28'
2001 Silverado 2500HD CC 6.0L 4.10
Check out my book: Restoring a Dream
Check out my Airstream book for kids!: Airstream Adventures
theVAP - Airstream Podcast
Safari Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 12:13 PM   #8
Rivet Master
 
87MH's Avatar
 
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor , Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
Images: 292
Breakaway Switch Fuse/Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
.....I think you should have a fuse or breaker in front of the breakaway switch too.....
Having become quite intimate with the electric panel on the '78 Sovereign, I know for a fact that there is a 50 amp breaker on the line feeding the breakaway switch (this line is common to the electric tongue jack). The feed line from the breaker to the front (jack/breakaway switch) is only 12 gauge wire.....

The phrase "too hot to handle" comes to mind, quickly followed by "lit up like a Christmas tree".

I agree with Inland Andy - on the breakaway - since you have no way to monitor the trailer (breakaway) system, it would be unwise to install a fuse on the breakaway system.
__________________
Dennis

"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."

WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737

Trailer '78 31' Sovereign

Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
87MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 12:15 PM   #9
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Dealing with theories, opinions, guesses, or logic, is not the same as factual proof.

First of all, a fire will not start if you have a magnet shorted.

Secondly, controller manufacturers, because of liability, suggest fusing.

Third, all of us have choices to make.

If you wish to have no brakes, because you had a short, just to save some wiring, that's your choice.

Most owners, want the security of knowing that even with a short, they will still have some brakes.

Lastly, since power will not be applied to the brakes for more than a few seconds, that is not enough time to overheat the wires.

Also, the wires themselves offer some resistance in addition to the magnets resistance. Therefore, it is impossible to get a "dead" short.

That being the case, the heavy wires will get hot, but they won't burn.

Bottom line is how well someone choses to be as safe as they can, regardless of the circumstances.

Ask any pilot.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 12:31 PM   #10
Rivet Master

 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
Images: 59
I would certainly encourage anybody to think very carefully about the advice given in the above posting by Inland RV. If you don't have enough experience to figure it out, ask someone you trust.

I ain't no fool. I'm going with what feels right, which means every wire should have circuit protection. That means a resettable breaker ahead of the brake controller, and a fusible link or breaker on the breakaway switch.
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 12:52 PM   #11
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
There is a marked difference between somones opinion, and 39 years of dealing with any specific problem.

That becomes factas well as experience, our ageless teacher.

Anyone, I am sure, that had to stop quickly, would readily agree that to have some brakes, gives them a chance.

To have no brakes, gives a person, a big fat zero chance.

Don, the choice is yours, as well as theirs.

Leading anyone down a road with zero brakes, is not my idea of safety.

But, again, that's your choice. My only advice would be don't lose your brakes, and hit someone, or, get into a sway, and find out you have zero brakes.

That's not a good situation for anyone to get into.

Stopping a trailer, at all costs, when necessary, is the object. What it may cost to do that, very quickly, becomes insignificant, under the circunstances.

Safety, when dealing with lives, has no cost.

I have been there and done that, personally, with test trailers, single as well as tandem axles.

But the real bottom line, is convert to disc brakes, and then the fuse question becomes meaningless.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:26 PM   #12
Rivet Master

 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
Images: 59
So once again, 39 years experience means that you have all the answers, and everyone else is wrong.

Happy for ya.
markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:31 PM   #13
a.k.a. Ambassador Tim
 
Safari Tim's Avatar
 
1960 28' Ambassador
Northern , California
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,921
Images: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

But the real bottom line, is convert to disc brakes, and then the fuse question becomes meaningless.

Andy
Ahh....

Like they always say, 'Follow the money'.

Most tow vehicles come prewired today with a brake controller pigtail and fuse in the glove box to be installed by the brake contoller installer. There is a fused brake controller feed built into the tow vehcile fuse box.

The AS, even my '71 has 40 amp fuse which leaves the battery location to the tow vehicle where it is tapped off there to the electric jack and break away switch.

Power should always be fused or breakered at the battery positive post. And if two batteries are connected together as in a trailer/tow vehicle, they need to be fused at both ends.

One more note. The short may not occur in the brake itself, it may occur anywhere along the length of wire and with no fuse protection you have a very real chance of a fire starting.
__________________
-Tim
1960 International Ambassador 28'
2001 Silverado 2500HD CC 6.0L 4.10
Check out my book: Restoring a Dream
Check out my Airstream book for kids!: Airstream Adventures
theVAP - Airstream Podcast
Safari Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:42 PM   #14
Rivet Master
 
TomW's Avatar
 
1967 26' Overlander
Huntsville , Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,018
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
...But the real bottom line, is convert to disc brakes, and then the fuse question becomes meaningless.
The hydraulic pump (aka a possible failure point with disk brakes which drum brakes do not have) will need a healthy chunk of power to do its job.

Following the "don't put a fuse on the controller" argument, it would appear that the pump falls into the same frame of reasoning.

Tom
TomW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:49 PM   #15
Rivet Master
 
87MH's Avatar
 
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor , Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
Images: 292
Breakaway Circuit Protection and Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomW
Following the "don't put a fuse on the controller" argument, it would appear that the pump falls into the same frame of reasoning...
I think I have have been enlightened to the wisdom of the Airstream way of doing things.....

Yes, the breakaway circuit is on a very heavy breaker, and yes, the magnets will fail if a short circuit should occur,

but....

the circuit is tested each and every time you hook the tow vehicle to the trailer....with the operation of the electric jack!

Power to the jack means power to the breakaway switch!

A failproof circuit test each and every time you hook up.

Eureka!
__________________
Dennis

"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."

WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737

Trailer '78 31' Sovereign

Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
87MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:52 PM   #16
Rivet Master
 
TomW's Avatar
 
1967 26' Overlander
Huntsville , Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,018
Images: 4
I put a 30 amp self-reseting breaker on the input power lead to my Prodigy controller because Tekonsha recommended it AND because I reasoned that the only thing that would trip it would be a dead short.

If a dead short is present, no power will make it to your brakes because it will all go to the short.

A fuse would not be a good idea because once it goes, its gone. With a self-reseting breaker, you get multiple chances to see if the short is intermittent.

Tom
TomW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 02:54 PM   #17
2 Rivet Member
 
Ga Pockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 52
The auto reset circuit breaker( 20 or 30 amp depending on # of axles) is between your Tow Vehicle's 12 volt system and the controller. If your charging system were to have a voltage spike or over current draw your system, your controller is still intact and will be workable in a few seconds after breaker cools and resets. If your controller gets fried..........a fuse down stream is a non-issue as you won't have brakes.






Wiring Instructions For Electronic Brake Controls
ELECTRONIC BRAKE CONTROL INSTALLATIO


3. Connect BLACK (+) wire through an



automatic reset circuit breaker (20 amp for
1-2 axles, 30 amp for 3-4 axles) to the

POSITIVE (+) terminal of the battery.

The BLACK wire is the power supply

line to the brake control.







5.
The BLUE (brake output) wire must be



connected to the trailer connector’s brake wire. (no fuse)










__________________
Ga Pockets
Ga Pockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 03:11 PM   #18
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Don.

No, I do not have all the answers.

But I do have the background of seeing almost any type of Airstream problem that someone can dream up.

What I try to report, is that experience factor, of what and why, and the fix.

The choice is still up to the individual owner.

All coins have two sides. Some are OK, some are less than OK. Each individual makes their own choices, of describing safety.

Safety issues are far removed from liability issues.

The only arguement is in the case of a brake line short, almost always caused by a worn out magnet, is it safer to have some brakes, or no brakes?

My 39 years with customers and insureds, say they would rather have the former, namely some brakes.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 04:37 PM   #19
Retired Moderator
 
john hd's Avatar
 
1992 29' Excella
madison , Wisconsin
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,644
Images: 40
not to jump in here and stir things up.

however, with your average battery in a tow vehicle being able to produce 650 amps, most wiring will become the fuse itself.

all in all, i'm with andy on this one. even though my rig is fused from the factory. 60 amp fuse, it will destroy the wires before blowing.

i think a good comprimise is a self resetting circuit breaker.

john
__________________
you call them ferrets, i call them weasels.
john hd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2005, 09:33 PM   #20
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Well I guess I asked a good question. There is a resetting breaker between the controller and the power when I looked more carefully. Installed by the dealer with the controller. So if the controller lights are on I have juice going aft. I'll be running separate lines to the axles from the connection block, one for each axle. I'll fuse the hitch jack inline. I will not fuse the breakaway switch and don't see any reason to do so. I wouldn't want a damaged fuse / breaker to go unnoticed and then not have power available to the switch if needed. Using the same line as the jack would help but I've blown that line fuse with a bad switch and had to use the hand crank when I ran out of fuses. I guess I would have the same concerns about fusing brakes aft of the controller, wouldn't know if they were bad. I'm not sure I would notice the difference between one and two axles braking until I really needed them both. Seems like something could be built into the controller to indicate there is a short on the system. This part of the technology has a long way to go. You would think that the new units would have something different than my 59.
I have another question but I think I'll save it.
PS. Still obsessing over the Duramax and 8.1L. If only diesel wasn't more than premium gas.
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Banks exhaust brake for Dodge Ram wflorencejr On The Road... 9 10-15-2005 08:26 PM
Brake Controllers smily Brakes & Brake Controllers 6 10-02-2002 06:12 AM
Electric Brake Controller Problem Don Brakes & Brake Controllers 4 04-15-2002 01:05 PM
Hydraulic Brake Replacement DanLyle Brakes & Brake Controllers 2 03-26-2002 05:02 PM
Which brake controller? Andy R Brakes & Brake Controllers 2 03-06-2002 10:11 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.