Battery failure

[NancyJane]

My 2004 Bambi 19' was parked up for several months with 110v supply connected. It was disconnected and towed for around 3 hours. All vehicle lights working during tow.

With truck disconnected and immediately after arrival, there was no power from 12v system. Checked batteries and reading around 8v each, despite having been connected to truck charging system for 3 hours prior.

Removed batteries. Connected another single 12v battery and all power returned to trailer. The fan above lounge area was running. Turned it off.

Checked removed batteries. Walmart DC 24 type. Date sticker showing 2014. General condition visually good. Zero corrosion. Took covers off and batteries completely dry, all cells. Took a lot of distilled water. Tried charging them but no good. After about 3 hours they had only reached around 11v. Disconnected charger and checked again after 12 hours and only 6v. Not taking or holding charge.

So batteries have to be replaced but i don't want to suffer the same fate as the others. Questions:

What could cause batteries to go dry? Excessive charging voltage i guess is one possibility. I guess then most likely to be when connected on 110v.

The battery levels had not been checked. Is it possible that levels were slightly low but the constant charging just made it worse and worse until all fluid boiled off?

Perhaps the 110v was not connected continuously, and the fan had been running and drained down the batteries. Could the running fan drain batteries so badly that batteries were damaged, then boiled off fluid when re-charging?

I suspect the problem may be due to 110v supply giving too high voltage and cooking batteries. I think this more likely than the towing vehicle generator. Agree??

How do i check the charging voltage?

[overlander63]

Four years for battery life is not bad. Much more than that should be considered being on borrowed time. Three years is considered average, unless serious preservation methods are used.

[hhendrix]

Your batteries were cooked by being on 110 volt from one of the earlier cheap Airstream charging systems. Once the cells are dry, it's usually impossible to bring them back to a reliable condition.

[rowiebowie]

You got your monies worth. Replace them and check fluid levels at least every 6 mos.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

It sounds a lot like you have not been checking levels in the batteries on a regular basis. If you live in a hot climate ( ... errr ... Texas ...) this needs to be part of your regular drill with flooded cells.

If the fan came on when you powered up the trailer, there's a real good chance it was switched on the whole time. That also is not a good idea. You can loose a fan while running down the road that way.

Four years isn't bad on batteries with "normal abuse". It's time to go get them replaced. It is worth checking the converter to see if it has failed. If it's still ok, you can keep it or replace it. It's a modern solid state unit so nothing horrible.

Charging the batteries though the 7 pin connector is never going to work very well. There just isn't enough current available that way. The TV alternator cuts back when the main battery is charged ... not much gets to the trailer battery. The lights and brakes run on separate wiring from the TV battery. The breakaway switch *does* run off the trailer battery. It's not going to to do it's job with a dead battery.

Solutions:

1) Get some flooded cells and monitor them for fill level in the future.
2) Get AGM's and don't worry about fill level
3) Go crazy with exotic batteries

Bob

[SeanWasHere]

Hi Nancy,

I'll cast my vote for Uncle Bob's solution #2, replace the old batteries with AGM zero-maintenance batteries. But be sure your charge controller can be set to tend them. It's a good feeling knowing they're not running dry, or boiling over.

-Sean

[Bill M.]

If you are going to use the stock converter in the trailer you need to use flooded cell batteries, check the water monthly, and maybe put the trailer on a timer when it is stored. You will get about 2 years or one mistaken full discharge out of each set. Not a bad way to go. Batteries are pretty cheap and easy to purchase. My guess is that if you put in AGM it will make it worse with the stock converter since you can not refill them.

I finally put in a new converter. Not too hard to do and it helps battery life. Plus I think the old converter never did fully charge the batteries. My batteries do not charge much when we drive.

[DKB_SATX]

No one has really addressed your question about checking the converter-charger output. It sounds like you have a multimeter, based on having taken voltage readings off the toasted batteries.

Go get a new set. If you're a member at Sam's or Costco, they have decent prices on Group24 deep-cycle batteries. It'll take you several readings over a few hours to really see what your converter is doing, but ideally what it SHOULD be doing is an initial bulk-charge starting off just above "nominal" battery voltage (12.6v or so) and ramping up over a couple of hours to about 14.4V, holding that for a long while (6 hours or so) and then tapering off to a "float" charge around 13.2v, +/-.

I don't know how much of a big deal it is if the charger immediately starts out at a higher voltage... I've seen that from cheap dumb battery chargers. The oldest Airstream converters would just put out a constant voltage that was eventually bad for the batteries, if it just pumps out something like 13.6v right off the bat and stays at that voltage for a day or more, you have a "dumb" one and it might be worth an upgrade to a modern converter-charger you could just leave plugged in with LITTLE worry. I say little rather than none, because especially with our summers here in Texas you'll still need to check the electrolyte levels from time to time.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

We keep going around in circles about converter / chargers drying out batteries. The one thing that the stock solid state converter chargers are designed *not* to do is to dry out a battery. To pump water out of a battery, you need to keep a high(er) voltage on it for a long(er) time. The stock chargers simply don't do that.

All chargers made in the last 150 years are current limited chargers.(Yes, lead acid has been around for a long time). The alternative to current limiting would be to supply infinite power to the battery, they just don't do that and never have. They all start out at whatever the battery voltage is and supply a limited amount of current to the battery ( = a finite amount of power). Old style chargers did this with a resistor or in some cases a light bulb. Newer chargers limit the current with solid state magic. Net result is that the new(er) chargers may get the job done a little bit quicker.

Bob

[gypsydad]

If you follow the threads on the Forum, you can see several threads on this subject including the cause....single stage charger on the older AS's. Happened to me on 2 new AS's in recent years, and has happened to several others on the Forum. I don't want to argue about single or multistage chargers, as some continue to do...AS was supplying single stage chargers up until 2018. Then they switched to a 3 stage units last year, which are "better", but still not as good as other options offering 4 stage charging.

Go to Bestconverter.com, and look up the Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics Converter sites that explain how the 4 stage converters work; also why their "smart charging" technology works well for both wet cell and AGM batteries. Not only sensors for charging but also for maintaining the plates. You can also contact Randy on their 800 number at the website..he owns an AS and is very helpful/knowledgeable. Cost is around $150-175 for a new Converter/charger. As they say "pay me now or pay me later"...

As for battery replacement and quick fix, I agree with the others about going to Costco or Sams for a quick fix; you can also ask Randy about batteries they offer. It's not that expensive to get a wet cell replacement at Sams or Costco in my opinion. If your going to get a costlier AGM, you may want to shop around a bit more. I had AGM's and they are worry free, but may not last as long as a well maintained wet cell from talking with the experts. (then there are the Lithium's...lots of bucks...but will outlive your AS, I would bet!)

I would still invest in the new 4 stage converter at some point. Good luck.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

If you follow the threads on the Forum, you can see several threads on this subject including the cause....single stage charger on the older AS's. Happened to me on 2 new AS's in recent years, and has happened to several others on the Forum. I don't want to argue about single or multistage chargers, as some continue to do...AS was supplying single stage chargers up until 2018. Then they switched to a 3 stage units last year, which are "better", but still not as good as other options offering 4 stage charging.

Go to Bestconverter.com, and look up the Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics Converter sites that explain how the 4 stage converters work; also why their "smart charging" technology works well for both wet cell and AGM batteries. Not only sensors for charging but also for maintaining the plates. You can also contact Randy on their 800 number at the website..he owns an AS and is very helpful/knowledgeable. Cost is around $150-175 for a new Converter/charger. As they say "pay me now or pay me later"...

As for battery replacement and quick fix, I agree with the others about going to Costco or Sams for a quick fix; you can also ask Randy about batteries they offer. It's not that expensive to get a wet cell replacement at Sams or Costco in my opinion. If your going to get a costlier AGM, you may want to shop around a bit more. I had AGM's and they are worry free, but may not last as long as a well maintained wet cell from talking with the experts. (then there are the Lithium's...lots of bucks...but will outlive your AS, I would bet!)

I would still invest in the new 4 stage converter at some point. Good luck.

Hi

Well, if simply having a converter take out your trailer is *proof* that the converter design is the issue .... you might want to avoid buying a new one. My replacement lasted .... errr .... just over a week ...

Bob

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Well, if simply having a converter take out your trailer is *proof* that the converter design is the issue .... you might want to avoid buying a new one. My replacement lasted .... errr .... just over a week ...

Bob

Hi UB; not sure I understood your meaning above, but I "think" your meaning is "replacing the converter"?

My experience, as many others have posted, has been positive with replacing the older converters with a new 4 stage unit. No issues. Sure, most folks may have good luck with their older stock converters "if" they do the following:
1) check/maintain the battery water level; check every month or so at least to be sure or install an auto- fill unit. $$
2) don't leave your batteries connected all the time; install a manual disconnect to avoid any parasitic draw from the AS when not in use.
3) install a separate battery monitor gauge to know exact status of your battery.

Or, you can also do as many of us have done and install a 4 stage converter, new battery's (wet cell or AGM's) and move on. Of course, checking voltage from time to time while in use and also the fluid level on wet cells every few months is still important...I just replaced my 1 year old "replacement" Interstate 12V's with Trojan 6V wet cells... I was able to sell my Interstates for $100 on Craigs list here in Lincoln MT first day listed!

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Hi UB; not sure I understood your meaning above, but I "think" your meaning is "replacing the converter"?

My experience, as many others have posted, has been positive with replacing the older converters with a new 4 stage unit. No issues. Sure, most folks may have good luck with their older stock converters "if" they do the following:
1) check/maintain the battery water level; check every month or so at least to be sure or install an auto- fill unit. $$
2) don't leave your batteries connected all the time; install a manual disconnect to avoid any parasitic draw from the AS when not in use.
3) install a separate battery monitor gauge to know exact status of your battery.

Or, you can also do as many of us have done and install a 4 stage converter, new battery's (wet cell or AGM's) and move on. Of course, checking voltage from time to time while in use and also the fluid level on wet cells every few months is still important...I just replaced my 1 year old "replacement" Interstate 12V's with Trojan 6V wet cells... I was able to sell my Interstates for $100 on Craigs list here in Lincoln MT first day listed!

Hi

You can equally well replace a converter and have the new one fail. It can fail in a fashion that takes out various bits and pieces in the trailer.

Based on the logic of "it's always the converter's fault", that event should completely eliminate a fancy new converter from consideration.

Again, I'm not the one trying to convince people to replace (or not to replace) converters as soon as they buy a trailer. I'm simply pointing out that the logic used to justify doing so has some holes in it. That's true starting with the incorrect descriptions used and just keeps right on going .....

Bob

[rowiebowie]

[QUOTE=gypsydad;2148344]AS was supplying single stage chargers up until 2018. Then they switched to a 3 stage units last year, which are "better", but still not as good as other options offering 4 stage charging.
/QUOTE]


By single stage charger, do you mean they put out a constant amount of charging power throughout the charging cycle? Meaning they don't reduce power as the battery charge rises to full?

I must be misunderstanding something since my '2012 Avenue class b has a 3-stage charger/inverter (Tripplite RV750UL). It even has an "equalize" feature that must be engaged manually with a temporary dip-switch setting. I can't fathom single stage being what I'm thinking it is above (unless this is 1970).

[Zil]

I have seen many charges or converters dry wet batteries in a few weeks. It is best to check water levels often. Once you get an understanding of how fast they dry, you can adjust your schedule to match. I checked my bank once a month until now I can check twice a year, and add water.



I have a quality marine type charger. It starts at just over battery voltage and puts out it's maximum amperes. It keeps the maximum amperes until the battery voltage is 14.7, then holds that voltage as the amperes drop. After a set-point low amperes per time at 14.7 volts the charger drops to 13.4 volts and just a low amperes. I have it set as a power supply as well as charger so if a device needs it will supply the amperes up to its rating. It is a three stage charger, unless i manually trip the equalization (4th) stage.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Zil

I have a quality marine type charger. It starts at just over battery voltage and puts out it's maximum amperes. It keeps the maximum amperes until the battery voltage is 14.7, then holds that voltage as the amperes drop. After a set-point low amperes per time at 14.7 volts the charger drops to 13.4 volts and just a low amperes. I have it set as a power supply as well as charger so if a device needs it will supply the amperes up to its rating. It is a three stage charger, unless i manually trip the equalization (4th) stage.

Your "quality marine type charger" sounds exactly like how my original '2012 Tripplite works.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I would be very careful about randomly swapping around chargers. Some of what's out there (mainly for automotive use) will put as much as 18V on the batteries. That is very much something you do not want to do in an RV application ....For my batteries, I would avoid it in any application. If you want to see a charger run a battery dry, get one of those beasts and let it run for a couple weeks ....

Bob

[Al and Missy]

There seems to be some confusion about charger stages. A single stage charger does not put out the same current all the time. It puts out a single voltage and the current is determined by the difference between the charger voltage and the battery voltage, unless it is limited to some maximum amount by the charger design. As the battery is charged its voltage comes up and the current goes down. These simple chargers have limits. If the voltage is high enough for a good charge in a short time, the ending current is too high. The battery reaches TVG, the temperature and voltage for gassing, and water in the cells is turned into hydrogen and oxygen gases. The water doesn’t boil, it is dissociated by the electric current.

A proper lead acid battery charger has at least three stages, bulk, absorption, and float. In the bulk mode a constant current is put into the battery until it reaches a target voltage. It then switches to absorption where it puts out a constant voltage until the current drops to a target level. Finally it switches to float where a lower voltage maintains the charge with a smaller current. These targets differ by battery type.

This all works well as long as the charger can sense the voltage of and current into the battery. House loads make this hard to do. Thus the modern chargers must rely on some “processing magic” to distnguish between current going into the batteries and current going to lights, fridge, etc.

Al

[ROBERT CROSS]

Ok, I think I got it...wet cell batteries dry out on their own without any help from the charger/converter 😂😳

...improper maintenance, bad charge profile, most common causes.

Our Classic was delivered with burnt dry batteries. When brought that to the dealers attention we were informed that they were not covered under the AS warrantee, Interstate replaced them. 14mos later when the new set failed they were not covered because it was determined they were dry because of being overcharged for extended periods,(during storage with the P-lax 7455 on).
My bad...I should have checked them twice a week.🤓

Got two Lifeline AGM's in 2007 when we swapped the P-Lax for an IOTA DLS 55a IQ4. SFSG👍


Bob
🇺🇸

[gypsydad]

[QUOTE=rowiebowie;2148934]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

AS was supplying single stage chargers up until 2018. Then they switched to a 3 stage units last year, which are "better", but still not as good as other options offering 4 stage charging.
/QUOTE]


By single stage charger, do you mean they put out a constant amount of charging power throughout the charging cycle? Meaning they don't reduce power as the battery charge rises to full?

I must be misunderstanding something since my '2012 Avenue class b has a 3-stage charger/inverter (Tripplite RV750UL). It even has an "equalize" feature that must be engaged manually with a temporary dip-switch setting. I can't fathom single stage being what I'm thinking it is above (unless this is 1970).

I can't speak to your Avenue situation, including how it was/is configured. I just know that "most" all AS TT's up until 2017, had what AS calls a "single stage" converter/charger in them...I have had a few discussions with AS service guys, and that's how they describe that unit. The unit in my 2017 model was a Paralex 5355B, 50A. It cooked my batteries, according to AS and also Interstate battery folks....because I left it plugged in for a few weeks at my home without using it. Fast forward: I called bestconverters, talked to Randy, and they recommended the Boondocker or the Parallel Dynamics. I chose the Boondocker. Here are the specs:
KEY FEATURES:

14.6 Boost Mode Output

13.6 Normal Mode Output

13.2 Float/Storage (trickle) Mode Output

Over-temp, Over-current Protection

Temperature tested to 160 F
105-130 VAC Input Operation
Reversed Polarity Voltage Protection
>85% Efficiency
Safe, Cool, Quiet & Reliable Operation
<1% Load Regulation

Filtered DC Output (Works with or without a battery)

Thermostatically Controlled, Variable Speed Quiet Cooling Fan

Standard 15 Amp, 3 Prong Power Plug on all Models.

Power Factor Correction on 75, 80, and 100 amp models.
3 Year Hassle Free Limited Warranty

My point is, IMHO, this is a good move to replace your single stage OEM converter/charger on pre 2017 AS TT's for peace of mind and perhaps to get more mileage out of your battery. I now can leave my TT connected without any worries...so far, so good...your mileage may vary.