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Old 03-06-2012, 06:56 PM   #21
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Has anyone completely removed their LPG furnace and rely solely on electric heat?

When our Suburban died we pulled it and have not installed a replacement. The extra storage space is nice but Winter camping can be pretty cold at times. The eletrci is okay but we'll eventually replace the LPG unit.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #22
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Amish people are pragmatic. They wear polyester because it's durable. Even though most don't have electricity in their homes, some sects us it in the barns so they can sell the milk to non-Amish dairies which won't accept hand milked or unrefrigerated products. Many though not all Amish avoid being photographed, because it's worldly (vain). Popular tourist destinations have affected the quality of craftsmanship in a large number of Amish communities. Before you go into an Amish restaurant - take a look in the dumpster - in quite a few you'll find commercial size cans of fruit filling and packages of premade piecrusts. Sigh.

Amish heater? Amish ELECTRIC heater? Doh!
Most Amish still use Iceboxes and wood, coal or kerosene stoves. (but then advertisers wouldn't sell so many if they called them B***S*** heaters would they?.

Quilt making and wood working - Well Amish toys are now generally ASSEMBLED by Amish, but the wheels are imported from China, etc.
Frankly master craftsmen do still exist, but a reasonably careful woodworker with modern tools, laser sights, etc., that can cut and turn precision pieces with a better result than anything built with hand tools by a craftsman of modest experience.

Because most people don't really know a good quality quilt from a Chinese knockoff (most of which are just awful) there are a lot of Amish quilters who are selling quilts they'd have used as horse blankets 20 years ago.

Was it P.T. Barnham who said there's a sucker born every minute?

Paula
I agree with most of your statements. However, if you think about it, the tourist have ruined the group in southern PA. Probably Ohio and elsewhere also. Not you, but I believe several have the Menninite and Amish mixed up, not knowing their relationship--or lack of. When we lived in northern Virginia, we had an Amish family build our "dream," home. It was amazing the dedication and craftsmanship they possessed. The 2 quilts we have, I would not trade for anything else I have seen. I believe that the Amish/Minninite of yesteryear would look mighty good comparing the way the world is today. Anyway....enough. Thanks for your response.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:23 AM   #23
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We carry a small space heater and use it 99% of the time, also a small hotplate and crockpot we use when we can.

When we are hooked up to electricity and paying for electricity, why not use electricity?


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Old 03-07-2012, 08:22 AM   #24
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When we are hooked up to electricity and paying for electricity, why not use electricity?Maggie
I have two comments regarding the above statement.
1) This past weekend I had the opportunity to inspect a 2005 Airstream Clasic for the new owner. The PO used space heaters almost exclusively for a source of heta in the trailer. During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted. This damage is a direct result of using space heaters for an extended period of time. What you save in propane is more than offset by this type of damage.
2) I am a campground owner and I can tell you from personal knowledge that electricity is the biggest cost factor in operating my business. Electric heat is the most expensives and least efficient method to heat any space. I bet you don't heat your home with electric heat because of the cost. Yes you are paying for a site with electricity so go ahead and use but don't abuse it. Why do you think the cost of renting a site with electricity is rising so rapidly. The electric companies are constantly raising their rates but per site usage is also rising dramatically.
I have done year by year cost and usage comparisons at my business and while the rate I am being charged by the electric companies is rising by far the biggest increase in my cost is from usage. So where do you think this cost is going? It is passed on to you the end user which is reflected in the daily rates. There is no free ride in this life and what you save in propane is going to end up costing you more in site fees.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:51 AM   #25
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I have two comments regarding the above statement.
1) This past weekend I had the opportunity to inspect a 2005 Airstream Clasic for the new owner. The PO used space heaters almost exclusively for a source of heta in the trailer. During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted. This damage is a direct result of using space heaters for an extended period of time. What you save in propane is more than offset by this type of damage.
2) I am a campground owner and I can tell you from personal knowledge that electricity is the biggest cost factor in operating my business. Electric heat is the most expensives and least efficient method to heat any space. I bet you don't heat your home with electric heat because of the cost. Yes you are paying for a site with electricity so go ahead and use but don't abuse it. Why do you think the cost of renting a site with electricity is rising so rapidly. The electric companies are constantly raising their rates but per site usage is also rising dramatically.
I have done year by year cost and usage comparisons at my business and while the rate I am being charged by the electric companies is rising by far the biggest increase in my cost is from usage. So where do you think this cost is going? It is passed on to you the end user which is reflected in the daily rates. There is no free ride in this life and what you save in propane is going to end up costing you more in site fees.
Hmmm, I see your point.

Our rationalization is this: we are tiny, yet pay the same per-site fee as rigs which are easily 2-4 times bigger than we are. Some of these have 2 air conditioners, a washer and dryer, full size frig/freezer, a couple of televisions, etc.

We use a single space heater, about 10" high. Our tiny size also means heating is not that difficult, and we do run the propane when dry camping or when using a space heater is prohibited.

We receive no discount at any time of the year, because we use only a fraction of the electricity that the big rigs use.

I understand what you are saying, but there are two ways to look at this.


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Old 03-07-2012, 09:20 AM   #26
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Electric heat is the most expensives and least efficient method to heat any space.
Mocus

I agree with this statement. I suspect it costs at least 50% more to heat with electricity as it does to heat with propane. So there is no utility cost savings by heating with an electric heater.

There also is a safety aspect to this. Electric heaters are not meant for permanent heat, just temporary heat. Most housing codes do not allow them to be used for permanent heating.

Most electric heaters are 1,500 watts (5,000 btu/hr). It would take 6 of these heaters to put out the same heat as your 30,000 btu/hr furnace. One heater will take the chill off, but will not really heat the trailer when it gets really cold.

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Old 03-07-2012, 09:29 AM   #27
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Hi Maggie I can understand your rationization regarding your unit size and agree that it is not quite equitable regarding site fees and unit size.
My response was meant as a general information post and not as a direct attack against you so I hope that no offense was taken.
Please keep an eye out for your shore power cord for signs of over heating due to high consumption for extended periods. I see several of these cords per year at my place yet the owners swear that they are not using space heaters. I had one person who attached their own wires inside my site receptacle to run an all electric kitchen in their shed. They nearly caused a serious electrical fire and I had to replace several feet of wire and the receptacle and it's cover as well as they had to replace their shore power cord. Inside this shed/kitchen was a toaster oven, an electric griddle, an electric kettle, a microwave oven, a house size fridge, an electric sandwich maker, an electric frying pan and several other electric appliances and they were astounded as to why all this caused a problem. I realize that this example is extreme and not at all similar to yours but I'm just stating what I have seen over the years.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:41 AM   #28
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Dan,
You are absolutly correct in your statement. I just threw out the topic to see what others, if any, do to supplement their heating requirements. Being so new at this (still pseudo-camping in our driveway--2 month owners 19' Bambi), I am finding it is very interesting to see what others have dreamed up. Thanks for input. Tom
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #29
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Hi Maggie I can understand your rationization regarding your unit size and agree that it is not quite equitable regarding site fees and unit size.
My response was meant as a general information post and not as a direct attack against you so I hope that no offense was taken.
Please keep an eye out for your shore power cord for signs of over heating due to high consumption for extended periods. I see several of these cords per year at my place yet the owners swear that they are not using space heaters. I had one person who attached their own wires inside my site receptacle to run an all electric kitchen in their shed. They nearly caused a serious electrical fire and I had to replace several feet of wire and the receptacle and it's cover as well as they had to replace their shore power cord. Inside this shed/kitchen was a toaster oven, an electric griddle, an electric kettle, a microwave oven, a house size fridge, an electric sandwich maker, an electric frying pan and several other electric appliances and they were astounded as to why all this caused a problem. I realize that this example is extreme and not at all similar to yours but I'm just stating what I have seen over the years.
I'd bet you could write a book on the topic of uninformed, or uncaring, individuals. The uninformed I can accept, but the uncaring, that's a different story. But, ya meet'em where ever you go, darnit.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #30
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1) This past weekend I had the opportunity to inspect a 2005 Airstream Clasic for the new owner. The PO used space heaters almost exclusively for a source of heta in the trailer. During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted. This damage is a direct result of using space heaters for an extended period of time.
I have a number of problems with this claim.

First, the 30 A power cord is of #10 AWG wire which is rated to carry 30 A continuously. You don't see a duty cycle limitation marked on the cord, do you?

Quote:
During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted.
The neutral wire carries exactly the same current as the hot wire--so why wasn't it "burnt, and the rubber surrounding it melted" as well? A bunch of broken strands in the hot wire, maybe?

Moreover, electric heating is a special case, because the heating load goes up as the temperature outside--where the trailer power cord is located--goes down. Temperature rise of the power cord is at a maximum when the ambient temperature is at a minimum. Utility companies used to promote electric heat precisely because it maximized demand when their generating plants and transmission lines were at their most efficient on account of the low ambient temperatures. (Nowadays utilities promote energy conservation to minimize the need to build more plants.)

Now admittedly the 30 A plug and socket are a different matter. I have seen many badly worn and sometimes cracked 30 A sockets in campgrounds, and in those you might see heating and even arcing at the socket. But a 30 A plug and socket in good condition can carry 30 A continuously.

As far as the cost of electricity, I sympathize with you--my home electric rates have gone up by about 50% in just the last year. The ratepayers are beginning to have to pay for all those windmills which were mandated by politicians, but which actually generate very little power.

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So where do you think this cost is going? It is passed on to you the end user which is reflected in the daily rates. There is no free ride in this life and what you save in propane is going to end up costing you more in site fees.
But do you see the philosophical problem with the above quote? Your customer is paying more in site fees whether they use the electricity or not. In effect they are paying for their neighbor's electric consumption. If you want to discourage use of electricity the only way you can do it is to individually meter campsite consumption and charge accordingly.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #31
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Hi Maggie I can understand your rationization regarding your unit size and agree that it is not quite equitable regarding site fees and unit size.
My response was meant as a general information post and not as a direct attack against you so I hope that no offense was taken.
Please keep an eye out for your shore power cord for signs of over heating due to high consumption for extended periods. I see several of these cords per year at my place yet the owners swear that they are not using space heaters. I had one person who attached their own wires inside my site receptacle to run an all electric kitchen in their shed. They nearly caused a serious electrical fire and I had to replace several feet of wire and the receptacle and it's cover as well as they had to replace their shore power cord. Inside this shed/kitchen was a toaster oven, an electric griddle, an electric kettle, a microwave oven, a house size fridge, an electric sandwich maker, an electric frying pan and several other electric appliances and they were astounded as to why all this caused a problem. I realize that this example is extreme and not at all similar to yours but I'm just stating what I have seen over the years.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:09 AM   #32
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No offense taken whatsoever, wasagachris. It's all good information, and that's why we're here.

We've camped in temps in the teens, and neither we nor our pipes have frozen, but thanks for the concern.


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Old 03-07-2012, 12:25 PM   #33
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No offense taken whatsoever, wasagachris. It's all good information, and that's why we're here.

We've camped in temps in the teens, and neither we nor our pipes have frozen, but thanks for the concern.


Maggie
Ummm, I'd like to add to this that we, of course, don't use electricity to heat our home, but a woodstove with a gas furnace backup, because we have a choice in the matter.

If we had to prepay each month for an assumed amount of electricity, I'd probably use an electric space heater in the house some, too. That is how I view site fees.


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Old 03-07-2012, 12:45 PM   #34
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I have used an electric heater full time for the last three months and have no issues whatsoever, and have checked the cord for burning/melting etc..no problems there. As for the travelpark i'm in at the moment, they individually meter each site, and at the end of the month i'm handed a statement of usage, of which I haven't exceed any usage rates yet. The larger rigs (i.e. 50A guys) are the ones, according to the owner, who go over the allowed rate and they pay for their excess usage. I think its the best and fairest way to go about accounting for usage.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:53 PM   #35
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The PO used space heaters almost exclusively for a source of heat in the trailer. During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted. This damage is a direct result of using space heaters for an extended period of time.

Space heaters are not wired in like a roof A/C. Or baseboard heaters in a house. It's a strain on the whole trailer electrical system and is not justified by saving pennies and is a hazard to boot. Just run one continually for two hours and go back and tell me how hot that power cord plug has become.

Portable is not the same as constant duty (as owners of cheap generators soon find out; or RV owners learn that an RV generator isn't up to powering constant A/C day-after-day), so warming ones feet after dinner is not the same as trying to heat the whole coach.

Get the right tool for the job.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:05 PM   #36
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I agree with most of your statements. However, if you think about it, the tourist have ruined the group in southern PA. Probably Ohio and elsewhere also. Not you, but I believe several have the Menninite and Amish mixed up, not knowing their relationship--or lack of. When we lived in northern Virginia, we had an Amish family build our "dream," home. It was amazing the dedication and craftsmanship they possessed. The 2 quilts we have, I would not trade for anything else I have seen. I believe that the Amish/Minninite of yesteryear would look mighty good comparing the way the world is today. Anyway....enough. Thanks for your response.
I grew up in N. E. Ohio - Amish & Mennonite everywhere. Found out quickly that they were two unrelated groups. Mennonites do believe in advanced education, and Amish rarely attend school beyond 8th grade - usually attend church sponsored schools. When I was still in elementary school a tornado hit our town. The next day buggies and wagons started to arrive from out in the county & a substantial number of Amish men and boys helped the townspeople cut down and remove trees. They accepted donations but took nothing from the poor & elderly, gladly took away the good wood & were fed in the local churches. Very impressive people.

But there have been a lot of changes since then - and certainly not all of them are just Amish people. As a child, most ladies sewed and knitted. The Amish sheared the sheep, carded the wool, dyed the wool, spun the wool, and then knitted the socks. I was with a group of younger friends recently and I was the only one who knew what a darning egg was. (Last time I used one I might have been 7.) I know a few crafty individuals who own llamas or alpacas who still spin and knit or weave - but they are few and far between. There are still many old order Amish but when you visit a major center - I have my doubts about the guy with the beard who is dressed "plain" but has a cell phone.

I'm headed up to Ohio for a quick weekend visit to Burton - MAPLE SYRUP time. I love that the whole town is enveloped in a cloud of maple scented steam.... Scuse me (drool break). Pancake breakfast at the fire department. Maybe a trip down to Lehman's Hardware too - where you can buy a wood stove, hand powered washing machine, etc.

here's the link www.lehmans.com

Paula
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:32 PM   #37
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Whow...It's remarkable how much "heat" this topic generated. I definately appreciated the information ones, and enjoyed reading the others. Hope to meet you all in the future. Thanks
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:41 PM   #38
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The PO used space heaters almost exclusively for a source of heat in the trailer. During the inspection process I discovered that the hot leg of the shore power cord is severely discolored (burnt) and the rubber surrounding it is melted. This damage is a direct result of using space heaters for an extended period of time.

Space heaters are not wired in like a roof A/C. Or baseboard heaters in a house. It's a strain on the whole trailer electrical system and is not justified by saving pennies and is a hazard to boot. Just run one continually for two hours and go back and tell me how hot that power cord plug has become.

Portable is not the same as constant duty (as owners of cheap generators soon find out; or RV owners learn that an RV generator isn't up to powering constant A/C day-after-day), so warming ones feet after dinner is not the same as trying to heat the whole coach.

Get the right tool for the job.
.
I have electric heat permanently installed in my trailer. It offers certain advantages when electricity is available, chief among them that it is quieter than the furnace, and reduces the amount of time I spend fussing with propane refills. Cost was, in my case, never really a consideration.

High amperage electrical connections tend to loosen over time. It's important to keep them tight. Loose connections will cause the wire to overheat and the insulation to melt. This will happen whether you're running the air conditioning, the electric heat, or a hair dryer. I tighten connections as part of routine maintenance.

My cords run cool at full load.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:29 PM   #39
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Space heaters are not wired in like a roof A/C. Or baseboard heaters in a house. It's a strain on the whole trailer electrical system and is not justified by saving pennies and is a hazard to boot. Just run one continually for two hours and go back and tell me how hot that power cord plug has become.
This is an interesting statement. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here. Let's consider Trailer A, which is running a 1,500 watt portable heater (120 V at 12.5 A) and Trailer B, which is running a 1,500 Watt electrical heating strip in the roof air conditioner (also 120 V at 12.5 A).

So, are you asserting that the 30 A trailer power cord on Trailer A will run hotter than the 30 A trailer power cord on Trailer B because the heater is portable?
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:41 PM   #40
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I grew up in N. E. Ohio - Amish & Mennonite everywhere. Found out quickly that they were two unrelated groups.
Not exactly unrelated. Both religions sprang from the Swiss/German Anabaptist movement about the time of the Reformation. Menno Simons formulated the basic principles of what would become the Mennonite church around 1500. A couple hundred years later Jacob Amman decided to reform the Mennonite church, and failing to do so, split off to form the Amish church.
So they are actually quite closely related.

While you are in Ohio be sure to visit Behalt, the Amish-Mennonite Heritage Center near Berlin, Ohio. Amish&Mennonite Heritage Center Berlin, Ohio

Yes, they have a web site!
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