AGM to Lithium Upgrade on 2022 Flying Clouds

[Texarado]

I have seen a number of threads on upgrading from AGM to Lithium, but I don’t see anything on the newest models (or if I have, I’ve overlooked them).

1. Swapping AGM for Lithium. On a 2022 model, what exactly will have to be done to transition from AGM to Lithium batteries? I understood that all hardware was already in place, but am I misunderstanding? Even if all hardware is in place, what calibrating or configuring would be needed for the various electric components so that I can swap in lithium? Note that the AS will have the solar package and dual ACs.

2. Moving location of batteries. If I wanted to move the batteries from the tongue to the rear in the dinette area, how easy is it to run those wires? Am I going to be running wires under the camper and drilling holes in the frame or is their easily accessible conduit to run it? I hate to put a bunch of holes in a brand new unit that I’m not completely familiar with yet.

(Sorry for the ignorant newbie questions.)

[uncle_bob]

Hi

There aren't a lot of 2022's out there yet ....

If the converter / charger *is* lithium compatible, there's a jumper on it or a pot you adjust (my bet is on the jumper). If it isn't compatible, $200 will get you one that's at least as good and *is* lithium compatible.

The solar controller (if you have one) gets re-programed through the bluetooth app. (if you have Bluetooth). If your controller didn't come with Bluetooth, add the dongle ( regardless of doing lithium ...).

AS puts the lithium batteries in the battery box up front. They work fine there. I've been running a set there for several years with no problems.

Moving the batteries to the back of the trailer does involve some pretty big wires routing under this and that. It may' involves pulling the belly pan and then re-riveting it in place. At the very least some pretty heavy wire gets run to the inverter. Somewhat smaller wire gets run back to the DC bus in the front of the trailer. So yes, there is some work involved.

Is this to say the battery box is the only answer? No only that there is some work involved. If you are putting in 4 or 6 or 8 lithium batteries, they are not going to fit in the battery box. You have no choice. At least some of them *have* to go inside. ( We have two in the box and two outside).

Past that stuff, you need to deal with the DC charge wire on the 7 pin connector. Some just ignore the issue. Others pull the wire and eliminate charging from the TV. The "cool kid" answer is a DC/DC converter for about $70 or so. That's all very much up to you.

Do you put in a shunt based monitor? Again this is an optional feature and up to you. Working out battery charge level on any battery from a voltage reading is a bit crazy. With lithiums you can be pretty far off with the typical in trailer readouts .....

Is there some level of guess work involved in planning this? Sure there is. It's AS, they change stuff all the time. You will find that your trailer is not quite the same as this or that person's trailer (even same model made within a month of each other). That's just the way it works. Best approach is to dig into the trailer you actually have and see what's what on that trailer. Then plot out what needs to change.

Fun !!

Bob

[Texarado]

Thanks Bob! Your response says enough! And this makes me inclined to pay for the AS Power Plus upgrade *if* they will install the lithium batteries towards the rear and do that work for me. If they do, then it seems some peace of mind there is worth the likely premium I would be paying. That is, unless the amount for it is so outrageous that I’d be better served paying another aftermarket person to do it.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by jmslade

SNIP QUOTE><><><><><><That is, unless the amount for it is so outrageous that I’d be better served paying another aftermarket person to do it.

YES...to a quality aftermarket or informed DIY install. 👍
What is the AS price and what's included in the 'up-grade'?


Bob
🇺🇸

[Texarado]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

YES...to a quality aftermarket or informed DIY install. 👍
What is the AS price and what's included in the 'up-grade'?


Bob
🇺🇸

Not sure on the price yet. I have a couple emails out to the dealer, but my unit doesn’t get here until early Nov, so I suspect I’m not top priority right now.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by jmslade

Not sure on the price yet. I have a couple emails out to the dealer, but my unit doesn’t get here until early Nov, so I suspect I’m not top priority right now.

Hi

If you buy the "stock" AS upgrade at the stated price, it's going in the factory approved location. That's dropping them into the battery box.

You can get just about anything done on an AS "after the fact" (= after delivery). There will be a (usually steep) cost. Depending on who does the work, the "bang for the buck" may not be there ( = some dealers do terrible custom work).

Bob

[Texarado]

I’ve heard some will install inside, others won’t. If they won’t and I can get comfortable with an aftermarket installer (no idea where to find one yet), I’ll go that route. I would just need someone who intelligently knows what needs to be swapped out if I move to Lithium. As you probably know from my multitude of other emails on the 25FB, I’m trying to reduce and shift some smart weight where possible.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Here's the gotcha with shifting weight:

As you move weight back in the trailer, it becomes less stable. We talk about "10% tongue weight for stability", it's not anywhere near that simple. Any significant move to the rear can get you into stability problems. Yes you have a WD/AS hitch ( or will have). The point is they can only handle just so much. Past a point you still have trouble. I have a lot of "real world data" on this ...

Bob

[Texarado]

Yes, I get it. I’m not trying to completely remove all tongue weight, I’m just trying to counteract some of the overly heavy aspect of the 25FB compared to the RB. I would still be keeping this in the 10-15% range.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by jmslade

Yes, I get it. I’m not trying to completely remove all tongue weight, I’m just trying to counteract some of the overly heavy aspect of the 25FB compared to the RB. I would still be keeping this in the 10-15% range.

Hi

Ok, if you take a 30' Classic, it has 13% of the gross weight on the tongue. If you look at the running weight it's about 15% on the tongue. Move a couple hundred pounds back in the trailer and it becomes noticeably more unstable at very normal highway speeds. Tongue weight changes by maybe percent when you move the weight .....

This isn't as simple as a lot of folks make it out to be.

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by jmslade

Yes, I get it. I’m not trying to completely remove all tongue weight, I’m just trying to counteract some of the overly heavy aspect of the 25FB compared to the RB. I would still be keeping this in the 10-15% range.

Hi

Ok, if you take a 30' Classic, it has 13% of the gross weight on the tongue. If you look at the running weight it's about 15% on the tongue. Move a couple hundred pounds back in the trailer and it becomes noticeably more unstable at very normal highway speeds. Tongue weight changes by a percent when you move the weight .....

This isn't as simple as a lot of folks make it out to be.

Most folks sweating tongue weight are doing so to use a low payload TV. That's the exact situation where these sort of stability issues are the most likely to occur.

You very much want to be safe as you go down the road !!!!!

Bob

[Texarado]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Ok, if you take a 30' Classic, it has 13% of the gross weight on the tongue. If you look at the running weight it's about 15% on the tongue. Move a couple hundred pounds back in the trailer and it becomes noticeably more unstable at very normal highway speeds. Tongue weight changes by a percent when you move the weight .....

This isn't as simple as a lot of folks make it out to be.

Most folks sweating tongue weight are doing so to use a low payload TV. That's the exact situation where these sort of stability issues are the most likely to occur.

You very much want to be safe as you go down the road !!!!!

Bob

Totally agreed and I don’t want to be, and won’t be, “that guy.”

But setting the weight issue aside, if anyone has Colorado (Eagle/Vail Valley) recommendations on a shop that could move the batteries, I’d be all ears!

[NeahBay]

Originally Posted by jmslade

Thanks Bob! Your response says enough! And this makes me inclined to pay for the AS Power Plus upgrade *if* they will install the lithium batteries towards the rear and do that work for me. If they do, then it seems some peace of mind there is worth the likely premium I would be paying. That is, unless the amount for it is so outrageous that I’d be better served paying another aftermarket person to do it.

I was quoted $5,000 from my dealer for the Power Plus upgrade, which I quickly dismissed. This included no wiring changes.

Bob

[Merlintiaga]

My quote on a 27FBQ Globetrotter for the Power Plus was $4k. That basically got me lithium batteries, but they took the AGMs with no trade in, even though never used. Said I could take the AGMs or not. I passed on it. Going to use the AGMs then decide what to do later.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If your trailer already has a lithium compatible converter / charger *and* if the batteries are going in the battery box ...... $5K sounds like a lot of money.

The heated BB's are < $1,200 each / delivered. It depends a bit on what sort of sale they are running this week. They come with wire and a toggle switch to run the heaters.

You would need to run the wire from the heater control lug on the top of the battery inside the trailer and mount the switch somewhere. The batteries should just drop in the box. You would likely need to put lugs on the ends of the battery cables. The normal "automotive" battery post connectors don't work with lithiums.

Assuming you go off to Amazon and buy one of the Chinese hydraulic crimpers ( a good idea ...) for $60 or so and spend another $40 on packs of lugs ( you need one, but they will only sell you a pack of a billion ...). Out of pocket isn't going to be a lot.

I have no idea what AS does about the charge lead and a DC/DC converter. If they put one in, add another $70 (delivered) for that.

Labor wise, you will spend some time doing this. Don't plan anything else for that weekend.

Bob

[Gulliver72]

I suggest under the bed with charging components in the front corner. Cable runs to the back of your rig are too far. Too much loss and complications.
Many posts from two years back(including mine).