Sub Floor? Bent Frame? Axles? 66 Tradewinds

[saltygirl]

Hello Fellow Airstreamers!

I am the very proud owner of Miss Mosey, an ongoing project of love. I have been reading threads and the more I read, the more I think I might have met my Waterloo in the following problem(s).

Most of the subfloor in our trailer has been replaced when it underwent an extensive refit about 10 years ago. The rear bath was moved at that time to a center bath and the rear turned into twin beds.

We have never had any noticeable issue with rear sag, until a trip down the coast of Baja California a year ago. In retrospect, I would advise anyone with a vintage trailer to NOT do that trip. The potholes and TOPOS (speed bumps) were horrifying, and we emerged mostly unscathed, there were a couple we hit that made me grimace in fear.

When we got home and assessed the trailer, it became clear that the curbside bumper was hanging down noticeably. It has lowered by about just under an inch.

The driver side is still good - about a 1/4 inch. The middle is about 1/2 inch.

Above the bumper, there is a rear compartment where we store the battery on the curb side. Directly in front of the battery, in the compartment, is the original aluminum mounted fuse box. I have discovered approximately an 6 inch square area, up against the rear compartment door, and directly below the fuse box, that is very rotten.

The rest of the compartment above and below is bone dry. The wood appears solid. And there is no plumbing anywhere in the area. Still not sure where the rot came from. My guess is the that the culprit could be increased condensation from the fuse box area that dripped down and rotted the floor. That is a huge guess. It could be a leak above in the rear tail light that is dripping down the wire into the fusebox, so I will re-butyl the base plate of the light. As well, I will replace the fuse box while I'm in the area.

I ripped off all the old cracked butyl tape that was stuffed in the bumper - and can now see that there has been an issue there in the past - someone previously attempted to seal the gap with silicone on that side of the bumper.

As well, we can see part of the subfloor hanging down directly above the metal frame. It's not good. If you look closely in the photo you can see two little blocks of wood that are resting directly on the frame.

As to the frame, it could have been bent from the potholes we hit. The black/gray tank is also located on this side directly behind the wheel well. There were times on that trip we drove with a full tank. I did have a trailer guy give a cursory look at the frame - he said it doesn't appear to be bent, but it's impossible to tell without pulling off the belly pan. Also, I have original axles, which I have had looked at in the past, and was told they were fine.

So if I understand the process correctly - first I need to deal with the frame? For that, I pull off the bumper, the side trim and belly pan to look at it, but what am I looking for precisely? Assuming the frame is either not bent or I have it repaired, my next step would then be the subfloor repair? Is there any chance that the subfloor rot is completely unconnected to the sag?

Should I do the subfloor repair first? I assume this is best done from the inside of the trailer? My thinking is that I pull off the built in interior bed base, remove the rear compartment walls and skin at the back so I can access the U Channel and then replace the floor of the rear compartment. I can't see how I could access the rear compartment properly unless I go at it from the inside of the trailer?

If the frame is bent, how serious is this in terms of safety? Can I drive safely? I assume I can as I drove home from Mexico! What I am trying to understand is whether I should I even attempt to repair the frame or just do the subfloor repair? Trying to figure out how much I really need to spend here.

And then there are the axles, which I might need replaced as well. Could THIS be the cause of the sag on the curb side?

If the frame is bent, I assume the work needs to be done by an Airstream shop so that the belly pan is removed and replaced correctly. Once the frame is repaired, can I assume that the 1 inch gap at the bumper will then disappear?

These repairs are wildly beyond my skill set. All of it. I'm going to have to hire professionals for any of the repairs. I am hoping that I can hire a skilled carpenter to repair the subfloor? Or does it need an Airstream person?

Any recommendations on the west coast of Canada or USA for shops? Is this something I need a restorer for or can I take it to a regular Airstream dealer that does repair work. I assume this is going to cost big bucks to do. What ballpark am I in for the frame work? I'm thinking $3000 to $5000 for the frame work alone and the same for the subfloor work? $3000 for the axles?

I could use any advice or expertise, and also input as to how to begin tackling tracing the issue, as I'm feeling quite overwhelmed right now.

In the meantime, I'm just going to replace all the Butyl and pray!

Thank You Very Much for any thoughts and suggestions!

Maggie

[perryg114]

Photos of that back corner from the inside would be helpful.



Perry

[batman]

Hello Salty Girl, welcome to the forum.
Your frame is probably just fine. The problem you are having is one of the most common issue we older AS owner have. Rear End Separation. The problem stems from a bad design by AS. The cover for your rear storage compartment causes water to migrate directly into the sub-flooring and wick it's way in. You can see the damage in your photo's. To get a better idea of how extensive the damage is, stand on your bumper and gently bounce up and down. Airstream trailers are built differently than most other brands. I will try to explain, the axles connect (bolted) to and support the frame. The frame is a network of steel that is connected (bolted) to the sub-flooring . the shell of the trailer is "only" connected (angle brackets,boltes and rivets) to the sub-flooring. So when the sub-flooring gets wet and rots, the bolts that secure the sub-flooring to the angle bracket pull out of the rotted wood and allow the frame to flex, while the shell appears to remains simi-ridged.
The damaged sub-flooring must be replaced and the shell reconnected to the sub-flooring. This should correct the sag in the bumper and make you trailer whole again.
That being said. You (like others) will still be left with that bad design that caused the problem in the first place.
My solution to that problem was fabricating a 2" flashing from aluminum that goes between the end of the sub-flooring and the skin, then 90's across the underside of the rear compartment cover, there is no way for water to contact wood. Hopefully, mine will never have Rear End Separation again.
I think axles would be in order as yours are past due. You might as well get new ones with hydraulic disc brakes. You will love it.

P.S. I would not use butyle tape. I prefer TemPro. Here is a very comprehensive thread on sealants. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f456...ry-116214.html

As you say you are unable to effect these repairs yourself. I would highly recommend you find some one with AS experience, like an independent shop near you. If you were here in CA I would recommend Uwe (oovey) at Area63productions in Southern CA. He is the best in the business.

Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.

It's only time and money

-Dennis

[Belegedhel]

In general:

If your axles are original, they are almost certainly shot. These elastomer based torsion axles last about 25 years. Yours are almost twice that age--nothing lasts forever. In the case of these axles they lose their elasticity, so whereas your axle arm should have ~3" of travel, it may only have 1", in which case your trailer is getting a much harsher ride than it would with new axles. Axle replacement is not rocket science. You can expect to pay ~700 per axle for the parts, and whatever a mechanic charges you to install them. Should be 4 or 5 hrs of work by someone who is familiar with the process. You don't need a certified AS shop to replace axles, it should just be a matter of unbolting the old, and bolting in the new.

Your stiff axles may have contributed to your frame/subfloor issues. It looks like you have a fairly textbook case of rear-end separation. The subfloor should be sandwiched between the frame and the shell. The frame supports the shell, and the shell supports the frame. When that wood rots away, you end up with a gap, and now the frame and shell can move independent of one another. Add in rough roads and old axles, and you end up with a hammering effect until the fasteners that connect the shell and frame fail altogether, allowing the frame to droop.

To repair, everything will need to be removed from the rear of the trailer, and the lower interior skins removed. Belly pan should be removed from the rear up to the axles at least. The repair person can then tell you what damage has been done to the frame, what it will take to repair it, and so on. Your subfloor may only require just a patch on the rotten spot, but there is also the chance that there is more rot under the wall, than you realize. Also, the subfloor replacement/repair that was done 10 years ago may have been done incorrectly, and the new floor was not actually inserted between the shell and the frame, in which case this failure was inevitable.

I would suggest that the person doing this repair be Airstream knowledgeable. I would think that an AS dealership should be able to do it, but there are likely to be other shops that can do it just as well. Uwe at Area 63 Productions is about the only vintage AS name that comes to mind on the West coast. This shop is respected. Cost is really going to depend on how much work needs to be done.

Is it safe to tow? Well try grabbing hold of your drooping bumper and giving it a bit of a shake. You might be able to tell if thingss are still in one piece, or if your frame is broken and flopping around like a fish on dry land.

good luck!

[saltygirl]

Hi Everyone! Thank you for your very thoughtful responses to my questions. I will take some more time to read thru and them and post any more questions or information. In the meantime, I will post this photo of the inside of the trailer looking down into the compartment.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by batman

The frame is a network of steel that is connected (bolted) to the sub-flooring . the shell of the trailer is "only" connected (angle brackets,boltes and rivets) to the sub-flooring. So when the sub-flooring gets wet and rots, the bolts that secure the sub-flooring to the angle bracket pull out of the rotted wood and allow the frame to flex, while the shell appears to remains simi-ridged.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your description, but I don't think this is quite right.
On the trailers I've worked on (a '64 and a '74) the shell is bolted to the frame, not just to the subfloor. The bolts go through the C-channel at the base of the wall, then through the plywood subfloor and then through the outriggers along the sides, or through the main frame rails front and back. There is also an angle hold-down bracket front and back between the frame rails. You are correct that the subfloor is an integral part of this and it's important that any replacement parts go out under the wall to maintain that connection.

[perryg114]

This is how my 81 is put together. There will most likely be minor differences but in general this is how they work.

[saltygirl]

Dennis. Thank you for your detailed response. I was wondering if you have any photos of the flashing you constructed. I’m having a bit of difficulty picturing it but it sounds like a great idea! Thanks again, Maggie

[batman]

Hello, DavidsonOverlander. I did mis-use the term "angle bracket" (my bad) I should have use the correct term, C-channel. I fabricated angle brackets for the corner radius. I have a 64 Safari. Ground up renovation. My shell does not connect to the frame directly. It only connects to the C-channel via rivets and the C-channel is bolted though the floor into the frame and outriggers using 1/4-20 bolts, washers and Nylon lock nuts. There are zero bolts through my skin to the frame.

Perryg114, thanks for the photo, this is the similar to my 64.

Saltygirl, I am sorry I did not photo document that process very well. To make the flashing I used sheet aluminum cut down to 4"x58". I used a metal break to bend the strip 90 degrees at the 2" mark. Now I have a 2"x2"X58" piece of flashing. I used a metal stretcher to make the slight radius at each end to match the trailer. It is rather complicated and you do need special tool to do it but it works great.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by batman

Hello, DavidsonOverlander. I did mis-use the term "angle bracket" (my bad) I should have use the correct term, C-channel. I fabricated angle brackets for the corner radius. I have a 64 Safari. Ground up renovation. My shell does not connect to the frame directly. It only connects to the C-channel via rivets and the C-channel is bolted though the floor using 1/4-20 bolts, washers and Nylon lock nuts. There are zero bolts through my skin to the frame.

Got it, we're on the same page! I misunderstood because I considered the C-channel to be part of the shell.
Thanks for clarifying.
Grant