Shell-on, frame repair/floor replacement all at once??

[pinkflamingoes]

Is this possible?

While I'm waiting for my husband to have some time to build ramps to put the 'stream upon, We're trying to figure out what to do first and what makes sense. I know this has been done...I can't find a thread about it specifically. If there is one, point me to it.

We want to repair the belly pan, frame, and replace the floors in our 67 TW. It's gutted down to the floor. The thing I don't understand is; doesn't it make sense to just pull out the floor *and* the belly pan, remove the insulation and any other unnecessaries, so that the frame can be accessed from both top and bottom?

I'm all set with my POR 15 and a neighbor is willing to weld in replacements or repairs of crossbeams etc. on the frame if we need it.

But I keep thinking I saw somewhere that if we do it the way I mentioned above, that we have to take off the shell and we REALLY don't want to do that.

Don't you have to take out some rivets or remove some panels or something to get the floor out? We're taking out the whole floor, so partial repair isn't really an issue. I'm mostly worried about having to take off the shell.

Tell me what to do! JohnG, you draw great diagrams! JohnHD, any photos would help. KenJ, I bet you can help me here too.

I don't want to make a mistake and rip out something (like we did the entire bathroom) that we need for a template or needs to be kept, or whatever.

Advice? Thanks,

pf

[Ken J]

Ingrid

Look at my 58 overlander restoration thread - it is there that I describe (briefly I admit) my shell on floor replacement. I start putting the floor in today, so I'll be updating the thread soon. I think shell on is good if your frame is good. Be careful though, because in my case you make the shell very unstable, so its good not to take all the bolts out - leave some in so you can replace the front and back wood first, then center. Keep the questions coming...........

Ken

[JohnG]

Ingrid,

I don't know who it is, but someone has photos of a shell on floor replacement. Hopefullly someone who knows what I am talking about will post the info for you. But you probably can find out more by searching shell on floor replacement

[pinkflamingoes]

Originally Posted by JohnG

Ingrid,

I don't know who it is, but someone has photos of a shell on floor replacement. Hopefullly someone who knows what I am talking about will post the info for you. But you probably can find out more by searching shell on floor replacement

I think the shell-on replacement photos are malconium's. I looked through them, and he has 2 x 4's stabilizing the shell on the inside, so I asked him if that was necessary because he had removed the inner panels. But it doesn't look like too much trouble to do what he did if I need to do it for the stability of ours when we remove the floor/belly pan. I haven't heard back from him yet. Our limited view of the frame looks ok; no holes that I can see, just rust, and not a ton of it either. Hopefully that's the case when we remove the floor. Then I would just sand off rust and paint over with POR15.

KenJ, I have been carefully studying your photos in your floor replacement. It is helping. Dont worry I won't blame you if something goes wrong...! But I've subscribed to your thread and the pictures are helping. Thanks for the bolt advice. Do you mean don't take all the bolts out of the belly pan when we remove? Or from the shell when removing floor? Sorry, I don't have a good picture in my head yet about how the shell is attached to the frame. I'm sure it will all make sense when I actually see it.


We may not have to jack up the trailer but a few inches to paint underneath if we can take out the floor.

Thanks very much. Then of course there is everything else, like wheel well repair and other questions...I'll be back...I'll to take pictures of the wheel wells and post and get advice. Maybe we can repair those or get ideas right now. So we can do everything in order and not have to tear anything out.

i.

[Ken J]

Ingrid

There aren't any bolts in the belly pan. First thing I did was remove the belly.

The bolts are around the perimeter of the trailer - some secured to the floor and some to the floor and frame. To pull the wood out, I used a chisel to cut away the wood around the bolt, then I either used a sawsall to cut the bolts or a dremil to cut the bolts. I cut out one section at a time with a skill saw then cut the cross member bolts with a sawsall - take your time - it is a bit time consuming. Also need to remove the gazillion screws around the perimeter.

[Ken J]

If you look closely under the floor channel, you will see the bolts I'm talking about hanging down - they are only 1/4 inch, so their pretty easy to cut - much harder getting the floor out.

Ken

[greg176]

Ingrid
Have you got the lower interior panels out yet.That would be a good place to start.

[pinkflamingoes]

Originally Posted by greg176

Ingrid
Have you got the lower interior panels out yet.That would be a good place to start.

No not yet; do I remove the panels completely or just take out the bottom rivets/screws and bend the panels sort of upwards? Which is best if I can do either?

__________________________________________________ _____________

There aren't any bolts in the belly pan. First thing I did was remove the belly.

The bolts are around the perimeter of the trailer - some secured to the floor and some to the floor and frame. To pull the wood out, I used a chisel to cut away the wood around the bolt, then I either used a sawsall to cut the bolts or a dremil to cut the bolts. I cut out one section at a time with a skill saw then cut the cross member bolts with a sawsall - take your time - it is a bit time consuming. Also need to remove the gazillion screws around the perimeter.

I think I do see them; but from your description I'll know now. You're saying if I leave any in, leave the ones that are secured to the floor or frame. Or if they need to come out because they're awful, I can just replace the bolts one at a time with new ones.

I think we may try to remove the floor to look at the frame, just to get an eyeball at it, instead of going under. We will definitely have to fix/replace the belly pan, as parts of it are out in the Bonneville Salt Flats....but the frame is our main concern so we can Fix It Once if it needs it and never think about it again. Might as well do it now since we're doing belly pan and floor for sure. The belly pan can wait, and besides, at this rate I may have to build a ramp myself. It's the busy season for DH.

I just really really don't want to take the shell off.

[Ken J]

Yes, take the lower panels completely out, can't just bend them - number them and set them aside - not hard really. If you look at the picture of my frame primed, you can see how I cut out the belly.

[pinkflamingoes]

Originally Posted by Ken J

Yes, take the lower panels completely out, can't just bend them - number them and set them aside - not hard really. If you look at the picture of my frame primed, you can see how I cut out the belly.

I can also see that you only kept the outer edges of the previous floor for the template; may sound obvious but I wouldn't have thought of that. The outer edges of the puzzle are all you need for the shape of the new one.

Thanks for all the input, it's all such a big help. I had it all set in my head that we HAD TO JACK UP THE TRAILER to get anything done next, and now I may be able to get in there and remove some inner panels and prepare for the job of removing the floor instead. I get frustrated with waiting for my husband to do what I can't do, so that I can hurry up and start doing what I *can* do. He does his best to help me given his lack of time...and inevitably I jump in and do something and he has a tool or an approach that would be 10 times easier, if it's something I can do, so I've learned to wait and see what he says to do.

So now maybe we can walk through it and he can get me started, and I can do the repetitive stuff of removing rivets or whatever. I also have a complete POR15 kit, the cleaner, prep, paint of both colors, and topcoat, so I can finish the hitch and back bumper while I wait.

[malconium]

Ingrid,

I did send you a private message. I then saw this thread so I thought I would add a few notes here for others that may be reading this...

There are a couple of threads you can look at where I give lots of details of the technique that I used for bracing and floor work. Check out the following threads:

"Shell Off vs Shell On" several notes especially #74

"HELP!!! On a tight schedule, need to replace..." my post #26

I would be happy to answer any other questions that I can about the over all approach that I took once you look over the above details.

Malcolm

[pinkflamingoes]

Originally Posted by malconium

Ingrid,

There are a couple of threads you can look at where I give lots of details of the technique that I used for bracing and floor work. Check out the following threads:
"Shell Off vs Shell On" several notes especially #74
"HELP!!! On a tight schedule, need to replace..." my post #26
I would be happy to answer any other questions that I can about the over all approach that I took once you look over the above details.
Malcolm

Hi, Malcolm, thanks. We aren't removing the inner panels, at least we don't think so, so when we get started, I'll know what to specifically ask. I'm going to do like you did and take lots of pictures. I'd rather not have to brace the inside, if we don't remove all the bolts that attach the shell to the frame around the edges. We're doing a shell-on if we possibly can. Now that I have some night time reading material (aka malconium's posts!) I will know more. We don't know what our frame edges look like, it sounds like that's something we need to know before I can ask any more...

Finally have an overcast day here instead of boiling hot (for the Bay Area) weather. I'm going into the trailer this afternoon..venturing in first time in a month.

I'm off to do an egg-drop experiment with my 8th grade neice. Tutoring is a great job!!

[malconium]

The problem with not removing at least the bottom row of the inner skins is that the top of the screws and bolts that hold the body down will not be accessible. Unfortunately they hold the body down by attaching it to the floor plywood and/or through the floor plywood to the ends of the outriggers or frame cross members. The ordering of the parts along the bottom of the body are as follows (starting from the bottom and working up):

1.) Bannana wrap.

2.) Frame - cross members at the front and back, ends of the outriggers on the sides.

3.) Plywood floor panels.

4.) U-channel along the bottom of the wall framing. On my 1973 the u-channel also has a c-channel part that wraps around the edge of the plywood along the sides of the trailer but not at the ends.

On my unit there are 1/4" bolts that hold the u-channel down to the floor and through to the frame at the front and back of the trailer. The bolts also are used around the curved parts of the body near the ends. Here they only bolt through the plywood since there are no frame members under this part except for the end of an outrigger or two. Only screws are used to hold the u-channel down to the plywood all along the sides.

In therory I suppose it would be possible to leave the inner skins entirely in place but here is what you would have to deal with to get that to work:

1.) Cut out the floor plywood as close to the edges of the body u-channel as possible.

2.) Cut loose all the bolts and screws with something like an air-powered cut-off wheel either accessing them from under the floor for the bolts or cutting them by cutting into the edge of the remaining plywood. Note that you will have pieces of bolts and screws wrattling around in your walls when you are done. It will also be a bit dificult to figure out where the screws are since their bottom ends may not be visible below the floor. Maybe a magnetic stud finder would point to them since they are steel in an aluminum frame.

3.) Figure out a way to replace the bolts and screws with something of adequate strength from the bottom of the channel rather than from the top. I think that you cold probably use toggle bolts of some sort to do this. You definitely would have to either remove all the bananna wrap or at least fold it back to gain enough acces to the bottom to be able to drill holes and attach fasteners. You would also have to guage where the body frame members come down so that you put your bolts and screws between them (not intot them).

4.) If you have to pull the body in a bit to get it in the right place you will have figure out how to grab a hold of it. Or you would have to have someone push on it from the outside. I was able to attach a luggage strap to the edge of the u-channel and pull the body to the right place.

As a practical note it did not take me very long for the most part to get the inner skins out of my AS. I have not yet put them back in so I do not have a good assesment of the amount of work to deal with that part. Using a combination of drilling the rivits or chopping them off with a sharp paint scraper might take only a couple of hours to remove the lower row of inner panels. You will have to find someplace to store them while they are out. The good news is that they are pretty much waterproof.

Malcolm