Oops, I did it again !!! 1977 Sovereign

[dbj216]

Seasons Greetings California David: Glad to hear your mother in law is recovering from a serious issue. Having her close by is a blessing for her. We are expected to care for our elderly relatives. Working on the old Sovereign will give you a bit of a break.

I recommend you get your subfloor made and installed first. That is always the way I have done it. It does mean you will be on your back installing the tanks, but you can handle it. I installed bigger tanks in the Overlander, but we reused the smaller tanks in my friends 76 Sovereign. However, we did change the drain plumbing some, so we make new penetrations in the old tanks and sealed up the old ones.

Take care,

Colorado David

[Daytonacoupe]

In my case dropping the black/gray tank pan on our 34' had been a bear as that lower profile cross member that the centre of the tank bottom bolts to interfered with the gray tank as I tried to slide the pan to the rear and free of the axle plate horizontal lips that we use as jacking points. I trial fit the tanks and pan from below before putting the floor back in but for ME, it wasn't possible to refit it from underneath without removing the styrofoam buffering and bending the heck out of the pan due to that darn lower profile cross member obstructing the gray tank. After too many hours of cursing and struggling on my back I bolted in the pan and dropping the tanks in from above. It was super tidy and thorough to fit the foam insulation snugly and I replaced the dump plumbing and valves with new stuff from above. Then I overlaid brown paper onto the top, traced the input and vents for the tanks, and transferred the template to the Coosa. Holes were right on and much less sloppy than the factory oversize hack job. Must have been a bad day in 1987.....

I hope not to have to remove these pans again. In retrospect I wish I had cut the bottom of the pan out below (and screwed a piece back into place) the valve plumbing as the valves will no doubt need attention someday. I do have photos so should be able to find my way with a cutting wheel and patience.

Airstreams appear to be unicorns as what works for many doesn't appear to work for some.

Good luck with your resto! Each task successfully accomplished is gratifying!! Getting there sometime isn't lol.

[2002sheds]

Hi CODB, Bubba and Daytona,
Thanks so much for the replies -- I really appreciate the perspective that each of you bring!

CODB, I should've also mentioned that the area under the tail end of this coach is a pile of loose, large rocks. I created a parking space at the bottom of our driveway, and the last 5 feet or so of the AS extends past the flat part of the "pad". I thought this could be an advantage as far as the demo and welding that I have had to do -- and it has, but the major downside is that it would take some engineering and rebuilding of the area in order to be able to lay on my back for a re-install. As it was, I crouched under the tank pan one section at a time when I was removing the bolts...

Because of this, and my continued trepidation about the weight of that pan plus the tanks, I am still more inclined to place the pans from above, unless I am over-thinking it and there is an easy way to suspend the tanks while I replace the pan...

I love the suggestions of the thin templates, as I can make marks on the template(s) that line up with still-exposed exposed frame members... thanks again for those ideas!

Now, if it will just warm up a bit... we actually had snow here this morning!

Thanks,
David

[dbj216]

The tanks weigh maybe 25 pounds each, and the pans weigh about the same. It isn't heavy like an axle is. I used my floor jack to hold the tanks and pans in place while I bolted the pans in place. But I have level concrete to work on.

As DaytonaCoupe describes, it certainly can be done before the subfloor is installed.

David

[2002sheds]

Thanks, CODB !
If it warms up a bit and the rain stops, I am going to get to it

CADB

[2002sheds]

Hi CODB, All,
Well, that took a while . Another long stint of not working on either Airstream, followed by short bursts of activity, culminating in a FINISHED subfloor!

What made things so complex is my stubborn idea of not robbing any ceiling height while making the subfloor stiffer. Instead, I painstakingly cut rectangle after rectangle of 1/2” plywood and then attached them underneath the surface layer, creating a 1” thick, stable floor.

Now comes the next question: do I install the remaining furniture and install the laminate door within those boundaries, or do I install the flooring throughout the coach and adjust the height of the few items that are affected?

Here are the particulars… The refrigerator and floor-to-ceiling cabinet next to it are already in, and would not need be adjusted. Likewise, the walls and the closets in the rear of the coach. I am going to rebuild the single bed structures and create a dinette-style front seating area.

So that means that the sink cabinet, the lower cabinet in front of the refrigerator, the low cabinet in the bathroom are what would be raised by the height of the laminate flooring that I am putting in.

To me, having a nicer floor under the beds, bath and kitchen cabinet would be nice. What are the thoughts of those of you that have done this, or decided against it?

Thanks,
CADB

[dbj216]

Welcome back! Nice to see you have been working on your vintage Airstream. That 1/2" subfloor Airstream decided to install beginning in 1976 is a pain. My friend's 76 Sovereign 31 is over here as he has a "spongy" floor in front of the galley sink. We will have to remove the fresh water tank to gain access from underneath. We may do what you did, cut a piece of plywood and firmly attached it to the exposed subfloor.

Your question depends on what type of floor covering you have. "Floating floors" shouldn't have cabinets on them as they tend to expand in the heat and buckle, or shrink in the cold and tend to open gaps. If your laminate is a glue down type, or some other type that can take the temperature extremes without expanding or shrinking, then it is your choice what you do.

My Sovereign friend bought a composite floor that locked together well and he built or installed his cabinets right on top of it. So far, no problems with the floor.

Colorado David

[2002sheds]

Hi CODB,
I had typed up a very long response to your message, but it failed to post...

So I will try again :-) The method that I used for replacing and reinforcing the subfloor was outlined by fellow Airstream expert James of the Vancouver area. If the plywood was solid (some areas were completely rotted), I left a 7 inch wide strip of original plywood along the wall/shell. This gave me room to place another 1/2" piece underneath, so that I had a surface to which to mount the top layer.

I took this method to the extreme, creating another complete layer of subfloor underneath the new 1/2" material, piece by piece and section by section. It involved a ton of cutting, screws, glue and improvised clamps, but the subfloor is now very stable and solid :-)

As I turn my attention to the finished floor, I continue to be concerned about the expansion and contraction of the floor I that I will put in. I just read from another forum member that loose lay vinyl planks shrink nearly the least. Maybe worth consideration?

Another factor is that I have a stack of fairly high end laminate that will actually be a good color choice if I go with it. One thought is to use Eurobond glue in each of the seams as I install the floor, to lessen the chance of gaps forming. I can provide room for expansion of the entire "laminate rug" except for the area just inside of the door, since almost every single edge throughout the coach except for that door area will be hidden.

Thoughts? I realize that I am somewhat overthinking this, but it will be me on my hands and knees installing this floor, and I'd like to do it only once, if possible :-)


Thanks,
David

[dbj216]

I hate it when I loose my post entry. I don't know of a "safe draft" routine on Air Forums. Sometimes I just post a partial as a draft and then use edit to finish it so I won't loose it. I also wonder if doing "preview" might save you work. For me, I've lost a post draft when the power goes out for just a minute. Rats.

I am no laminate flooring expert. Maybe you can visit a local store and get some advice. Or maybe contact the mother ship at Jackson Center customer service and see what they might recommend. Certainly these Forums would have good "user experiences" that would be useful.

A "laminate rug" is what my friend did. Then we attached all the interior cabinets to it directly. So far it has held together well over these last two years of Colorado winters. I don't remember what type of floor planking he used.

Colorado David

[2002sheds]

Hi Colorado David,
Great info — thanks! We are finally getting slightly cooler weather here… it may be time to tackle the job I am dreading the most… putting the tanks back in.

My parking space is not only outdoors, but the driveway (such as it is) falls away sharply a foot or two behind the rear wheels. No jacking of tanks here…

I am considering a setup involving posts dropped from the exposed plywood subfloor, and holes at regular intervals on each post. Then I can put a large dowel across from one side to another, and rest the tank on the resulting ladder “rungs”.

I need to place the tanks up near the subfloor in order to mark where I need to cut the hole for the toilet flange and another vent on the same tank, so I need something with the adjustability of the floor jack without being able to actually use one…

California David

[ke6gkv]

welcome back! i also lost my draft. i used laminate also;didn't go quite all the way wall to wall. have not had any problems so far. keep up the good work. kurt

[2002sheds]

Hi Kurt,
Thanks very much — and great to hear from you!!!

It is super helpful to know what you shared, since our climate is identical. How is the area by the door? Did you secure the planks on that side in any way? Have they moved away from the door frame?

Thanks,
David

[dbj216]

I might suggest you can use a floor jack on your steep driveway entryway with a big piece of plywood on top of the jack, and the tank on top of the plywood. The floor jack has a rest that swivels on top of it which should self align. I used a floor jack to hold my new waste water tank up snug against the subfloor to position the tank exactly where I needed it, and them mark where I need to drill the new tank for the pipe penetrations through the subfloor after my drain plumbing scheme was done above floor. And I mean done right down to the hole I drilled in the subfloor to meet the tank. It is much more difficult to run plastic ABS pipe to an exact hole. It can be done, but it is harder for me.

David

[2002sheds]

Hi David,
Thanks for the response! Unfortunately, floor jacks are not an option. Even if I was able to get a somewhat level plywood surface for the jack, the tanks would need to be lifted well beyond the tallest that the jack can reach.

What I have settled upon instead is to clamp 2 pieces of angle iron across the lowest part of the frame back there — one near the front of where the tank will go, and the other near the opposite end.

I then lifted the tank at one end and slid it onto its rest, and repeated the process on the other end. So far, so good!

Thanks,
California David

[ke6gkv]

hi david, my dinette achors the right side and the wall next to my fridge is on the other. it's cleats are screwed into the subfloor and the wall just rests on top of the floor. wa ll is screwed into cleats. kurt

[Glenritas]

Hi Davids CA & CO ,
Yep I've lost long posts also . My cure is to wright them in text edit then highlight and drag to the window then post , works every time .

David CO take look at my build thread , just click the link in my signature . It will give you some insight about the systems and floor install .

Keep up the good work

Glen in Shasta Lake

[2002sheds]

Hi Glen,
Thanks for the response, and I did check out your build thread. Like you mentioned, it is full of great info !

Progress continues on the ‘78 Sovereign. I have been very reluctant to tackle the task of putting the tanks back in (especially the black tank) because the subfloor is 100% new and there was nothing left of the original floor (nor rear support), so deciding where the various holes should be cut was giving me pause.

I finally realized that I already had a reference point in the drain pipe from the sink, which was still hanging there. After cutting an opening for that pipe and the corresponding fitting on the tank, I decided to create a template from the top of the tank. A marker, some scissors and a utility knife made creating the template easy… now I had to test it for real.

Despite being as careful as I could while making the template, marking out the places for the holes and cutting them, of course they were slightly off… good thing I kept the hole for the toilet flange on the smaller side, so when I got the tank to where it will stay, I was able to adjust the hole for the flange with no loss to the material that will be needed when the flange is screwed down

Next is the grey water tank. I am fairly determined to reinstall the tub at floor height instead of on the platform, so I have ordered a Hepvo drain setup and am in the process of marking out the cuts needed for the path between the tub drain and the tank.

I am already seeing that the tub drain idea that I have will likely result in the grey water tank riding a half inch to an inch lower than before… how big of an issue will this be? Or is it fairly non-consequential?

Thanks!
David

[Glenritas]

That raised tub was one of the things I thought was dangerous about the bathroom . It also left a gapping hole to the Tank/ belly pan area and a great way for critters to get into the interior .

Be sure to fill any gaps around the plumbing while you have access to the floor penetrations .

Keep up the great work and have fun with it .

[2002sheds]

Hi Glen, Colorado David, Kurt, All,
Thanks for the responses! I am hoping to lower the tub to the floor and run the Hepvo drain (no P trap, pictured below) in an effort to save some space for the tank.

As best as I can tell, the minimum amount of room beneath the floor with this setup is around 3.5 inches. Is that enough?

Thanks,
David

[dbj216]

Hi again: My friend's 76 Sovereign had a P trap for the tub drain which was positioned to allow the 1 1/2" ABS drain pipe to run above the floor, but under the tub and then dump into the gray water tank. The long pipe running top to bottom in the photo is the drain line from the galley sink. There is also a tee for the vent pipe going up through the roof. He also had a heat duct that ran under the tub and provided forced air heating to the rear bath. The photo shows the bathtub platform upside down. The heat duct is 4" insulated flex to reduce heat loss in the duct. The under the bathtub is a busy place in the mid seventies Airstreams. I never studied step over height of bathtubs, but his Sovereign and my Overlander (similar bath design), but I don't find it abnormal in any way.

I might add that the p trap hole and the drain pipe holes in the subfloor are above the gray water tank. And the tank pans seal the area from critters. The harder place to seal up is where the 3" drain pipe exits the tank and enters the rear bumper storage compartment.

If your hepvo trap is located under the subfloor, I don't know how to get the gray water into the tank.

Colorado David