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pinkflamingoes · 01-17-2005, 11:41 PM

I peeked around and looked for an insulation thread; point me in the right direction if it's been said and done.

What kind of insulation should we replace the yellow stuff with that's under the floor? How does it stay in between frame pieces, or does it attach under the frame or floor somehow? I know some of you have done this, pictures would help. I know the higher rating the better; I'd like to hear some experiences of others putting in insulation when they replace the floor. FYI: The belly pan is almost completely off and we're replacing the entire floor.

http://community.webshots.com/user/pinkflamingoes/

Pictures at this link.

Thanks all!

Over59 · 01-18-2005, 12:42 AM

Nice set of pictures. Looks like you have your job well underway. I take it you are going to take the shell off since the belly pan is off or do Malcolm's technique.

The insulation discussions have been mixed in with the floor threads.

You have your foamers and your glassers. Foamers come in two general types, cut to fit or blow in place. There are always the ambivalent ones who blow in place the cut to fit. Glassers tend to duplicate the factory by laying down a layer over the frame and squishing it with the floor. I think the foamers out number the glassers. There are a few bubble wrappers but they tend to hang out on the walls and wear baggy pants.

I am debating the same issue. If the weather was warm I think I would use cans of foam to fill in around cut foam board. Problem is what kind of board and what kind of foam will hold up without condensation and mold problems. In fact I may use foam to seal all possible entry to the belly pan by critters and leave the air space with a layer of reflective foil. This will give me working room for attaching the floor as I am putting the belly pan on first. Do mice eat foam. The foil on top of the frame and under the floor. Returning later with more foam from underneath if I need more R.

A thermo break between the floor and frame seems like a good idea, but the walls don't have one. Of course the walls don't have wood to rot from condensation either.

Your choice will be influenced by the order of battle so to speak. Floor on first or belly on first. I wonder how much the foam would push out the belly pan if sprayed into the cavity after it's all together.

I think this may be the least standardized of the restoration projects. I am determined to be mice and snake proof.

wahoonc · 01-18-2005, 02:45 AM

...I mean glasser here. I am redoing sections of mine so I will be going back in with the fiberglass similar to the way the factory did it. From what I can tell they put down 2" paper faced batt insulation from the top, then added a layer of unfaced (not sure how thick) from the bottom before installing the belly pan. I am probably going back with 6" faced from the top and "notching" where it goes over the frame to make it a little easier to fit. The ONLY board insulation that I am aware of that doesn't absorb water would be the Extruded Polystrene ( usually in blue or pink) which is used heavily in the building industry in places like basement walls, under slabs and in roofing systems. There is also Expanded Polystyrene which is the white beaded stuff(like the cheap coolers are made out of), but I don't think it would stand up to the constant vibrations and it is has a fairly poor "R" value per inch. I also wondered about the lack of a thermal break in the walls....next time I go to the Boeing Plant for a tour; I will pay more attention to what they put in the walls of the 747's

IIRC they were using a couple of different types of insulation depending on where it was in the aircraft. I know in at least one location they were using a fiberglass insulation that was incased in a poly wrapper.

Aaron

eljay · 01-18-2005, 05:31 AM

I am determined to be mice and snake proof.

Didya have to say snake?

rluhr · 01-18-2005, 06:54 AM

We chose rigid extruded foam for most of the easy spots, and traditional fiberglass batts for the curved and tricky spots. I prefer the rigid foam because it will not be affected by water, but the fiberglass is better at noise dampening.

markdoane · 01-18-2005, 07:11 AM

I'm a glasser and a foamer. I used 3 1/2" fiberglass (formaldehyde free), but I didn't want it to be resting directly on the belly pan. I felt that leaving an air gap between the insulation and the belly pan would provide for drainage and drying out if water ever got in.

I suspended the batts of insulation with galvanized metal angle, mounted to the crossmembers, and strips of sheetmetal between the angles.

At the corners, I used sheets of polyisocyanate foam, glued to the bottom of the floor, then trimmed with a knife to match the contour of the bellypan.

greg176 · 01-18-2005, 12:46 PM

Aaron
Boeing (and Airbus) uses a fiberglass insulation in a mylar bag.Its mostly about keeping the insulation together the air roars around quite a bit in flight.

**Stefrobrts** · 01-18-2005, 01:31 PM

I am replacing the floor of our 68 Caravel, which originally had sprayed on insulation. A local restorer told me he had replaced many 68 floors that he believes were rotted out because of this spray on insulation, which prevented moisture from escaping the floor by sealing the bottom. So I'd avoid spraying anything on that would seal the wood from below.

Rich, is that the bathroom end of your Caravel?

59toaster · 01-18-2005, 02:01 PM

I am debating if I will even put any back. Most of my camping with be in warm weather. If I camp with it in the winter I'll be heading to the Keys to get Away from the cold.

I found that the insulation was trapping water between it and the frame and caused some rust. As a result I did not install it when I put the new floor in.

If I do put insulation back I will probably do something like Don did.That seems to be one of the best solutions I have seen to date. I will use spray foam where I need a air seal where pipes go through the floor. I have a relativly air/water tight floor because I put down linolium before the shell was put back on. The linoliom will form a gasket effect when I bolt down the inteerior components. The only place water will have access to the wood is holes for plumbing or the outside edge. The wood has also been treated on all sides with a marine Epoxy resin before it was installed.

malconium · 01-18-2005, 03:09 PM

The approach that I am taking is perhaps more radical than most. I intend to put hot water radiant heating on top of my new Polyboard floor. I have come up with a scheme where I am going to put reflective foil insulation on top of the Polyboard and then add the radiant heating on top of that in such a way as to leave an air gap above most of the foil. Please refer to the attached sketch for details.

If I were not going to put radiant heating on top of the sub-floor I would still want to use foil insulation - but under the sub-floor. I would suspend it in some fashion so that it was at least 1/2" below the bottom of the subfloor so that there was an air gap (reflective foil works best with an air gap). If I were going to install it from below after the floor was in place then I think I would just add some narrow strips of Polyboard, foam or maybe even wood at the edges of the cavities and attach the foil to the bottom of the strips, perhaps with staples. If the belly pan was on and I wanted to install the insulation before the subfloor then I would think about adding some sort of strips of foam, wood or plastic along the sides of each cavity (attached with rivits or screws?) and attaching the foil from above - again perhaps with staples. Since I would be concerned about water collecting on top of the foil then I would consider punching a 1/4" diameter hole in the middle of each section of foil and fastening a screen mesh over it to allow drainage and prevent access by bugs.

In my opinion reflective foil would do a better job of insulation, will not provide a cozy home for mice to nest in, would be light weight and would not capture and hold moisture.

Thats my two cents (or is it more now with inflation?).

Malcolm

greg176 · 01-18-2005, 05:15 PM

I am also not going to put any insulation.My belly pan will be removable and if it is too cold I will add fiberglass later (or wear slippers).

rluhr · 01-18-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Rich, is that the bathroom end of your Caravel?

Yep, that is. The front end looks pretty similar. We had extensive rot (worse than yours) in the front and battery compartment, some under the fridge, and some not-so-great replaced floor in the bathroom (prior owner). It all came out (2/3 of the total floor area).

The good news is that we had easy access to fix a lot of annoying little things and dents along the banana wrap, inspect and put POR-15 on the frame, run some new electric & gas lines, replace the umbilical (7-way) line, etc. If the fridge croaks I now have a new 110v and 12v line right to it for a modern 3-way fridge.

And best of all, that suspect spray-foam insulation is gone. Like you, I was wondering if it contributed to the rot problem, since it seemed to absorb moisture. Water gets up into the sub-floor area, no doubt about it, even with a good belly pan.

We also sealed all the cut edges of the new plywood with wood preservative, as well as the underside, FYI.

**Stefrobrts** · 01-18-2005, 05:38 PM

That must have been a ton of work to get that fiberglass bathroom unit out of there. Good opportunity to run those extra wires though. I'm upgrading to a new fridge, and will have to find a way to get the wires over there.

I have discovered pink insulation in the front under the POs patch below the water tank. When I get more of the wood removed I'll be able to pull it out and see how it held up. If it looks good I might be going with that under the new floor, like you are using in the corners, Rich. I'll also be using POR-15 everywhere I can reach.

rluhr · 01-18-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

That must have been a ton of work to get that fiberglass bathroom unit out of there.

Oh no, it was quite easy. I just wrote a check.

**Stefrobrts** · 01-18-2005, 07:14 PM

Oh, well then, you're mising out on all the 'bonding' I'm getting to do with my Caravel...

pinkflamingoes · 01-19-2005, 12:57 AM

Hm.
My husband used to be a pipe coverer ("heat and frost insulator" for purists, "lagger" for old schoolers), he might have some answers too. I was just thinking about putting some down under the floor on top of the frame, but Mr. Former Insulation Guy probably has all kinds of tricks up his sleeve he hasn't told me about. Far be it for me to ask him first though. Good thing he never uses the computer or he'd know of all my lack of faith...

Thanks for all that. Will be back to check for more...thank goodness this forum is here for insomniacs and rainy weather.

i.

Over59 · 01-19-2005, 10:08 AM

Malcolm. How thick is that floor going to be when you're done?

You'll be hitting your head.

malconium · 01-19-2005, 02:07 PM

I am of course aware that I am reducing the distance from the floor to the ceiling of our AS. I am adding 3/4" on top of the sub-floor with the radiant heating system and foil insulation. I intend to add some type of floating floor on top of that system. I have not made up my mind yet as to type but it does need to be able to free span the 4-1/2" gaps between the 1x2 strips. I am currently leaning in favor of a 3/8" thick bamboo floating floor. The floating floor would make it easy for me to get to the heating system should there ever be any need to repair anything. The bamboo is also probably one of the best possible solutions for spanning that distance. Bamboo as I understand it is even harder than oak. Since I would probably be putting something similar to the bamboo on the floor even if I was not doing the radiant heat the net effect is that the top of my finished floor will be 3/4" higher than otherwise. The rough distance from the floor to the ceiling is about 80". I am 6' 2" tall which is 74". That leaves about 6" of clearance. I have already decided that I can live with loosing 3/4" of that distance. Also all of my interior will be completely new and built from scratch. So I have virtually no worries relative to anything not fitting because of the extra floor height.

Malcolm

Cat · 01-25-2005, 03:42 AM

I am unable to read all the posts here...except to scan over them...and this is my constant delemma...not reading well. Suffice-it-to-say, I'm not getting everything everyone is writing about; and it's been awhile since I re-did my flooring, but my memory & receipts (& "Log") serve me well..this was for laying down new carpeting and vinyl---NOT FOR REPLACING THE FLOORING.
I was strongly advised to not lay down the yellow 'vapor-barrier' between the marine plywood Airstream had used (stock) and the new flooring (carpets/vinyl). Reason: they said, was that the floors should "BREATHE"...because not only is the warmth supposed to keep them dry from INSIDE (heat), but they need to 'breathe' from below (under the rig) from the flow of air.
They also recommended (this was an Airstream Dealer and certified Airstream mechanic) that prior to laying the new flooring down, I treat the stock marine plywood with a moisture barrier coating (like verathan in a gallong can); which I did by 'painting' it on and allowing it to dry thoroughly. I can't tell you the name of the product, without spending a lot of time looking it all up...but, I do recall that it was somewhat caustic and required wearing a vapor mask and having the area well vented.
ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE STUFF WAS?

Cat · 01-25-2005, 04:20 AM

Since writing the above post, I went searching for a thread about my insulation issue...and not finding it, I started it...because it is an issue with the WALL insulation---not flooring.
If these 2 should be 'married' (joined together in one thread) then, the webbies will do it I'm sure... Then, we should name the (joined) thread entitled just plain "Insulation" (not including 'suggestions'...& not 'wall'). But, call it just plain "INSULATION".
i'M leaving this post here for you all, so that those of you who read this thread's posts will be aware of the new one I just started, until such time as our illustrous "Webbie" puts them together, if that does happen. If not...see you there! I need suggestions too!