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Old 10-06-2012, 12:21 PM   #61
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Wish its on to the interior, just too much hidden stuff!

. ...got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy.... .

Ive accommodated the sphanish moss effect of drooping wires for a couple of years and finally condemned the whole 12V wire harness and can report there is 6.7# of 10awg, 3.94# of 12awg, 11.28# of 14awg and 4.84# of 16awg plus 1.5 pounds of connectors and 2 pounds of friction tape and self-stick wire hangers. That 27 pounds of wire and connectors fit neatly in a 5-gallon bucket and is worth $54 as-is at the scrap yard.

Anyone rabid about using all original materials in their restoration, getcher requests in, though I think I am keeping the dashboard main connector with the control center assembly.

Also I can report that the low-voltage wiring insulation on a late 72 built trailer is self-extinguishing plastic, it wont support combustion without being in the presence of another fire. That is a good thing - nothing wrong with the 12V harness as found here, wire looked great, just too much of it went to the wrong places.

Im finding it much harder to quit the 12awg 120VAC as was provided. The lines are still almost like new since 97% of it was never exposed to UV or ozone, and as the interior is likely to be extremely sparse in built-ins for the foreseeable future so itd be an easy rehab to run trunk lines - and the factory outlet liner cutouts would just have to be patched and/or the liners replaced & Im not that enthused at this point.

The next step is prep the shell for insulation!!
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:05 AM   #62
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I have grieved the factory use of spray-adhesive from day one every time I glimpsed it – plus the odor I hate so much is still faintly in attendance – So I chose to burnish away every speck of the spray adhesive and give some texture to the mirror smooth shell panels for insulating paint to bond to.

Peppered through the 1500 posts I have on Airforums are skirmishes I’ve already been through with the trailers fiberglass and none of them pretty. Over a couple of years I cobbled together a drill attachment brush to perfectly scrub the vinyl liners with and then used it to de-tuft the fiberglass, that was the gateway drug to pressure washing the shell interior. But the ultimate ‘high’ remained plain clean aluminum…

Adventurous folks out there reading this sober up right now - it’d be a beneficial & healthful occasion perhaps even celebrated annually until the twinkle fades from your stars to remember contact adhesive ground superfine into flour with residues of fiberglass is listed in the Geneva Treaty along with 10,000rpm angle grinders with a large wire cup brush can & will remove noses, ears, fingers, and yes, I stopped to count nipples once. Stay tuned for further instructions.

Two incidents occurred, first I had a brush slightly off balance that fatigued me more than I knew, when the brush kicked-back and went into oscillation between razor sharp aluminum bows and ribs one hand slipped off and the grinder came after me – but not before it’d slammed the remaining hand into one of the Z-fold standoff sharp edges enough I counted those fingers 5 or 8 times before believing they were still attached. The brush got returned until I found one perfectly balanced at zero wobble.

The second time was near the front roof vent patch where it grabbed a Z-fold standoff and bucked free of my grip to fall in ever-so-lazy slow motion against my cheek, ear and alight onto my shoulder. Luck was with me since the brush had attained zero-speed needed to unclench from the mauled Z-fold standoff and begin toppling toward my face as I was working it nearly directly overhead. I got to watch as the grinder tried to resume RPM while the pivot of my elbow could only direct it toward my face. Facemask, goggles and hearing muffs were all untouched but there is a slight paisley design tattooed on my cheek & jaw from the brush flier strands, and the collar of that work shirt now appears ‘stone-washed’ - so unless ‘it’s you’ to wrestle stuff around that can/will bite maybe hire this portion out!

If you have the reading comprehension and retention we all hope you do, and still decide to follow this path, this chore will occur while the shell is off so to be able to pressure wash the static-clinging aerosolized pestilence into the lawn. Perish the thought I’m trying to be humorous, it is three-day grit since that’s how long it takes to start coughing it up after getting a whiff of it. I won't go into detail how every tool, rag and supply item got flocked with the junk, plus items downwind, took almost as long to clean as the trailer interior.

Anyhow, after bunches of hours I'd managed to get 97% of the aluminum sheets, ribs and bows brushed clean. The next step was an hour of vacuuming the floor and all the crevices repeatedly. Next up was two window fans on high, pushing and pulling, while I fired up a Stihl leaf blower and burned almost a tank of fuel pushing dust out the window until near-zero sparkles were observed in the sun beams coming through the windows.

Next was two 5-gallon buckets, one POR-15 Marine Clean and one plain water for micro-fiber wash clothes and terry-cloth scrub towels to dry - and hit every sheet, rivet and frame piece. The micro-fiber stuff is great, the wash-cloth rinse bucket became black with aluminum oxides but after two rinse & squeeze dries then dipping into the soap to continue, that degreaser bucket remained clear! No carry over, the micro-fiber caught huge amounts of dirt but released 99.9% of it into the rinse water. That's a smart tool to use, always thought they were gimmicks until now.

The final step was doing the same thing to the floor - 2'x2' area at a time. And just like that I have finally eradicated the smell, the contact adhesive and fiberglass and am ready to insulate... The only things left original other than aluminum and glass is the 120VAC wiring and some of the window gaskets

Edit: after all this time I'm guessing Joe Somewhen had the trailer fumigated for rodents (norway rats were in the belly) with a cyanide compound similar to the mole-getter pyrotechnics one lights and gases mole tunnels with. The area behind the control console had more than its share of the smell but the final clue was some of the wiring harness from that area left the 'odor' on my hands as I sorted it for salvage. The remainder of the wire just had a pleasant scent of things electrical... Just saying, when trailer shopping if your nose isn't happy then Mom isn't happy so NO ONE is happy...
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:23 PM   #63
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Nice work!!

After all the great advice you've given me over in my thread about my Caravelle renovation, you'd think I would have checked out your projects but I haven't until now. This is looking really great. I'm not sure if I have the patience to burnish the hidden inside of my shell, but I bet it will help mitigate radiant heat transfer to have the shiny surface. I don't know much about the real efficacy of the insulating paint but I will be watching your posts this winter to see what you think. I ended up spending a couple of hours today rehabbing my BAL jacks instead of putting my shell back on the frame but I hope it happens next weekend. Now I see where the adhesive came from that you sent me to help with my project. Thanks again for that. My floor is really quiet and probably will stay that way. Cheers and here's hoping for a long warm fall. Tim
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:50 PM   #64
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LOL. Yep, still need to do this, my trailer seams are covered with black goo..... We'll see how much I remove ( or not). I'm freakin' sensitive to smell so I totally sympathize.... But congrats on a shiney interior! You mentioned insulating paint, I'm curious as to what you are planning to use?
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:15 AM   #65
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Wabbiteer, that is quite a job you did on the inside of your shell. I can't wait to see the next step. Keep up the good work.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:36 AM   #66
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glad that you are fine, I normally take some unnecessary risks while working and specially when working solo.
again, glad that you are fine, trailer is looking good!
we are learning a lot!
Once done with the 5th wheel we have a 72 31ft to get into...we are taking notes!
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:44 PM   #67
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Thanks folks - if everyone ignores the frumpy exterior long enough to step inside it appears like a $65,000 new trailer for about 3 seconds!

Quote:
I bet it will help mitigate radiant heat transfer to have the shiny surface
What happened there pretty much ruined any reflective quality it once had. The brushes used gouged and scoured a whole raft of metal from the surface and likely increased the surface area by 333% in order to get paint (or anything) to bond to the old aluminum. I've seen POR-15 ready to peel away easily after a few seasons on 40-year-old aluminum, though it did leave behind a bright clean surface. IIRC, Darkspeed wire brushed his interior to get the spray-in-foam something to bite to, as well as a couple others in the last few years.

Quote:
You mentioned insulating paint, I'm curious as to what you are planning to use?
I'm going with the first stage of insulation as hollow micro-spheres layered and stacked by drying paint.

After caulking all the seams I plan on doing two coats of bonding primer and one or two coats of aluminum flake 'reflective' paint - all of it with the insulating spheres in it.

The primer I chose has about 70% talc solids content - and dries to a rock hard thin film. I primed the first coat on the floor sheets with it, and also a no-longer-temporary (someday we'll custom cut something or another for it) kitchen counter top sink-surround made out of Medium-density fiberboard (MDF) with it and its proved to be great stuff.

The Aluminum paint should be sprayed on to get the leaf-thickness flakes to lay down, supposedly - I am looking forward to doing the rib/bow & inner liner contact points with this too, and if I like it will be doing the hidden side of the liner panels with it.

So - after all this there will only be a 10-15 mil thickness layer and then traditional insulation or a combination of spray-in foam, foam and fiberglass.

I'm not trying to sell this junk to anyone - but I do dislike being cold and by that alone its worth the $150~ or so cash to try it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:46 AM   #68
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So are you going to use one or more layers of prodex in addition to the insulating paint?
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:38 PM   #69
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so, a pretty similar insulation job that Darkspeed, any major difference between the ceramic products that you are going with vs his ?
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:46 PM   #70
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I'm working up some details. Hard to place 1000 days of musings into text.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:40 AM   #71
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How were you able to get the cuts for the patches with such a clean cut? any particular tool? We are looking into making some patch work too and wondering how to obtain a good clean cut.
Also we see that you patched the propane refrigerator roof vent, may be I missed but are you removing the vent at all or moving it to another location?
Is looking good! you have talent! keep the work
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeggieBullet
How were you able to get the cuts for the patches with such a clean cut? any particular tool? We are looking into making some patch work too and wondering how to obtain a good clean cut.
Also we see that you patched the propane refrigerator roof vent, may be I missed but are you removing the vent at all or moving it to another location?
Is looking good! you have talent! keep the work
I'm no Wabitteer nor do I have his talent but I've had excellent luck making nice clean cuts in sheet aluminum with this Grizzly electric shear. http://www.grizzly.com/products/Elec...al-Shear/H2867. I have had a hard time keeping the sheet from bending on a long cut with my hand shears, but the electric shear cuts out a thin strip of metal and leaves a nice edge that requires only a light pass with a file to be ready to go. It was well worth the $60. You can finish off the rounded corners with a hand shear and a file. The electric shear is really good at long straight cuts and even with my skills, I can make a straight cut with no more than a millimeter of variation across the length of the cut.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #73
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For food storage I'm going with a 24VDC /120VAC Vitrifrigo unit I got scratch'n dent salvage.

My grizzly-like pneumatic shears failed miserably on .040, had to do a rough cut and then band saw the fine cut. The shears worked decently on .025 and less so on .032" stock. A pneumatic punch nibbler works well too, especially on rounded corners, always use a guide edge. Gee, I wote about this already. Use the rotary saw to cut wherever there is backing interference from ribs and such. One trick is a table top belt sander, let the sheet ride loosely on the running belt to perfectly smooth it andget a small bevel going to keep from having raw edges catch any & everything, knuckles, elbows, tractor-trailers, roadside branches.

Rotozip with a Flush Cut Guard Attachment - diamond dust wheel or 1/16" metal cutting wheel and a aluminum barstock straight edge works well for thicker aluminum sheet. Did a 46" straight cut on trailer just fine. Fine bastard file to give a slight rounded profile and its good to go.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:47 PM   #74
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I think the thickest I've cut with my Grizzly shears is .032" so I don't know if they'd fail on anything thicker.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:03 PM   #75
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Insulation?

I know I cant cover every possibility or give a thumbnail sketch of every idea Ive had.

Whatd Id really like is a 2013 trailer and then tear it down and stuff it with Aerogel but you dont want to hear that either.

Kinda crazy to not have six-inch walls and a 9-inch ceiling if trying to claim weve insulated these old Airstreams! Either hot or cold-climate mobile homes will always out perform a 1-1/2 inch shell any day of the week. But I have this this here trailer and want to insulate it.

I always planned on painting the shell interior so I might as well hedge my bets with the additives - I understand its playing around with the surface coating but with 1-1/2 inches of room to play with paint film or two isnt going to crash the party much.

Where Ive been living sees an average of 28 nights below zero temperature, over the 40 years this trailer has existed thats 1100+ nights or 3 years of deep freeze conditions. And our average annual temperature of 45.4 F (7 C) gives the Twin Cities area the coldest annual mean temperature of any major metropolitan area in the continental U.S. Now lets stack on constant wind out on the Great Prairie, so everyone have some cheese and crackers with my whine.

99% of paintable insulations are meant for 200, 300, 500 degree temperature differences. Using them for slight temperature differences under long durations is not very effective, and the non-exotic types available to consumers are mostly meant for exterior top coat for extreme sun where sun heating pushes untreated exposed material temperatures above 200F.

So on my project Im speculating the inverse of that is true, say -30F overnight temperatures with a huge wind-chill boost (-50. -60)) and maintain a 70F (or survivable) living space without needing a science fiction Mr. Fusion unit & 1.21 gigawatts of power to travel forward into time to the next day.

Its kind of like fuel economy in a tow vehicle where the difference between 8 and 9 mpg doesnt mean much until the 10th fill up is free except every trip out to refill propane or buy diesel or generator fuel counts against energy usage totals.

Over a couple or three years I've glommed onto a mix of insulation:

Partial roll (26"~ diameter) of the 48" width Prodex.

600sqft 0.25 (3x 50' x 4') Owens Corning Foamular fanfold sheathing (R-1)

http://www.foamular.com/assets/0/144...84726ae053.pdf

300 sqft of 1" roll batt fiberglass (R2.5)

600 feet of 3M Paint Protection Film 8591 (8mil Polyurethane film, Acrylic Adhesive; Thermal impedance 0.5 (W/m.K) vs. 210-250 for aluminum)

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...L8591_8592.pdf

The 3M Paint Protection Film (8591) will be thermal break material on the ribs, bows and standoffs. This is the stuff that they put around car door locks and on the rocker panels to keep paint from getting chipped, nearly inert with a hearty & gnarly adhesive.

Okay, its not cork or some exotic foam but it will allow the pop-rivets to be fully drawn tight to clamp liner sheets before the rivet pops but not loosen a minute later from softer thermal break candidate materials yielding under pressure. Im sure there are thousands of candidate materials to choose from but these were near-free with 3m adhesive attached. Yes, of course there will still be a lot of heat flow but nowhere near the direct aluminum-to-aluminum contact as AS so thoughtfully provided us with.

Advertised Prodex data Im believing dodges accepted best information practices in their industry. They present one, and one set only, of performance results these days without requesting their written information packet. As far as I can search on their website, gone is the page that showed R-4 on the walls etc.. Prodex does excel at making heat do what it wants to - bouncing heat straight up and cold straight down and being a vapor barrier. I remember cutting away Prodex floor insulation on the old floor and finding it very damp in the to inch air space I provided for, so that vapor barrier may be too much of a good thing if it is coupled too tightly to wood (even painted wood) without some venting in our non-climate controlled applications (we bring our trailers inside at night, dont we?).

To get best performance the 2-1/2 (dead!) air space gap is required. A 1 air space comes pre-equipped with an R-Value of 1, and on a vertical plane a single layer of prodex and a 1 dead air space on each side is near R-3. That same 1 space with sheet foam is R-5 or R-6, with fiberglass R-3. Kind of a no-brainer there if Im trying to protect against something other than just S.W. desert thermonuclear sunshine.

So, a paint-on low conduction & low emissive barrier. Some real R-value under the floor from foam, plus a good radiant barrier and air-gap under the floor, Im thinking is using prodex like a mitten on the spars and outriggers. I want to (but probably wont) use fiberglass where something as likely as a grass or trash fire might turn block foam into poison so maybe the lowest 24 on the walls may have of fiberglass with a prodex backer, depend on adhesive or aluminum tape to keep water out of it.

And the bulk of the insulation will be sheet foam. If I find I cant handle making the barrel stave shapes to properly fit 1-1/2 foam board to shell contours, I already have the sheathing to make a continuous outside layer and back it up with 1 foam boards, then maybe another continuous layer. Or some hybrid version of the above.

Anyhow

I am waiting on Henkel Alumiprep-33 and Alodine 1001 & 1201 aluminum etch & conversion coatings. I'm tempted to use the POR-15 Metal-Ready I already have but the folks in the aviation industry use the Alodine on everything they touch except burger wrappers, and the 1001 conversion preserves mirror bright finishes while the Metal-Ready leaves a dull or grey zinc film behind. So my interior painting is stalled for a week until FedEx shows up with my packages. Oh - AircraftSpruce does not put a HazMat $30 charge on Alumiprep-33 like other stores do if'n y'all wanna try some...
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reinergirl
Just curious to know if you ever did any further tests with the attic radiant barrier paint?
Howdy folks, just some updates...

I have not gotten estimates on contracting spray-foam installation.

My stash of reflective paint, and the microsphere insulation additives are all stored in a cool dark place waiting for other events...

I obtained Henkel Alumiprep-33 and Alodine 1001 & 1201 aluminum etch & conversion coatings to prepare the shell interior for paint layers & probably spray foam. These chemicals are best practices for aviation, a dime in now is a dollars worth of prevention later.

The Alumiprep-33 is a phosphoric acid based cleaner, brightener and prepaint conditioner for aluminum.

The Alodine 1001 & 1201 are chromic acid based coating chemicals that will produce a chrome conversion coating on aluminum and its alloys.

The coating formed by Alodine 1201 is gold to tan in color and it becomes a part of the aluminum surface. This will be used in hidden areas.

The coating formed by Alodine 1001 is clear in color and it becomes a part of the aluminum surface, this will be used on the window frames and exterior.

These chrome conversion coatings offers the best affordable substrate for both paint adhesion and corrosion resistance.

First good streak of warm days I'll be scotchbrite-sponging the inside of the shell with a diluted 33, hosing it off and applying the 1001 & hosing that off too. I hate to think of 100's of gallons of live water everywhere inside the trailer but its now or never.

That catch of working with these is the 'requires room temperature' to work; that was a gamble, the winter of 2011-12 was a mild one and 2012-13 has been long and cold. Later this week will be first forecast 40F day in 120+ days.

I've gloomed onto a SMEV stainless steel 4-burner & oven range and a silstone countertop and work basin, AC-to-24VDC PS for the lighting, diesel heater & pumps, 48" 24VDC LED lamps and smaller LED utility lights, etc... The list goes on and on...
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:10 PM   #77
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I've got 120 pounds of a 600-board-feet foam kit sitting on the floor beside me as I write this, so unless I can find someone to pull the house roof and let me spray the back side of the 90-year-old uninsulated 2nd-floor plaster I am committed to foam and have been chasing details to back up this installation.

Yesterday saw the interior of the shell getting scrubbed twice to degrease and prep the surface for the alumaprep-33 acid wash. Getting water to sheet off the sheet metal instead of bead up means the next panel is ready to scrub. One secret is to water washing our old trailers is to keep the surface wet & soak & stand as long as you can suffer it, only then will a film resembling 'rubbed sunburn' be manually brushed away on the ribs & stringers, even many of the previously wired brushed areas had a film that softened with a long enough soak.

I got the front third of the trailer done w/ alumaprep33 - and it having up to 1% hydrofluoric acid before dilution has me dressed in a hillbilly moon-suit.

So far about 45 minutes of garden hose flush of the shell has happened over my plywood floor so am glad I took time prepping the new floor for just such an occasion! I expect two hours worth will have happened before I finish the chromic acid treatment. Yum!
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:17 PM   #78
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Good to hear from you Wabbitteer,

I'd love to,see some pics of that process.
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Old 09-29-2013, 11:52 PM   #79
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Look at the splatter photo if you want to see how much crud is on even freshly brushed and solvent wiped aluminum. Very few paints or adhesives will bond to that permanently, months or years maybe but not forever. The etch solution left bright spots pretty rapidly, remember the grey areas had already been spic'n span mop & brush scrubbed prior to the etch step.

Got the interior Alumaprep'd and Allodined. Probably 90 minutes of full blast water rinsing and I turned the interior surfaces slightly tan in color. If I was a perfectionist the spray foam would've been applied already, the Allodine wants to be painted or sealed as soon as thoroughly air-dried to prevent chances on fresh corrosion but that is not in the cards as too much to be done yet.

Looking where the etch chemicals leaked out and marked the exterior had me drilling all the trim off to get rid of the factory pop-rivets. I am in extreme hate with their method of random drilling, they pop-riveted into buck rivets, beside them, and in all sorts of combinations to the Z-plate stiffeners - plus missed rivet bores or skipped pre-punch bores. Heck, lawn furniture is assembled more thoughtfully. The trim stays off permanently.

We've buck rivet filled around 80 except 8 or 12 of the ones with most
interference, will be fun finishing those. There are some slack spots where shell sheets overlap that allow water to pass through that got marked too, interior caulk parging will stop the air movement if new rivets and caulk miss something on those spots.

I've patched both plumbing roof vents over and the antenna is gone & patched. And I will admit using .040" 2024 is overkill on patches, .032" would've done nicely, but they are there and seriously strong and look like they've been there forever. Also note here Methanol Chloride makes ancient clear-coat gel up in about 3 second but it will flash dry and make a new layer that is seriously hard to remove so great care to use fresh cloth is needed if you try spot cleaning to metal using paint or gasket remover etc. containing it...

More text soon...

EDIT: Zero smell in trailer, nill, nought - clean and inviting.
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The days are short and the night is long and the stars go tumbling by.. . ~Airstream~
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:12 AM   #80
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1980 20' Caravelle
Ogden , Utah
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Your interior is a thing of beauty. Too bad you have to cover it up with insulation. When the insulation sticks to that, it is going to be super strong!!
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