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Old 04-12-2004, 09:42 AM   #21
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Chuck,
Yeah, you're probably right on the drill sizes. I can't remember much anymore. I found the numbered bits at a local hardware store, then dressed them up on my "Drill Doctor" so they have a nice split point. Centers really nice on the little dimple.
As for replacing the exterior rivet, I'll be using regular bucked rivets, which are cheaper and a lot faster to put in, and don't need to be shaved afterwards. That's the advantage of removing the lower interior panels, you have access to both sides for rivetting.
If you are going to do a double clamshell and section the belly pan, like KenJ, then you would probably be better off using Olympics. As you said, the front and back rivets will be covered by the rubrail, and the few you may need to replace on the body make bucked rivets less important, economically.

But if you doing a shell lift, and replacing all the lower rivets, I think the bucked rivets are the way to go.
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Old 04-12-2004, 01:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
But if you're doing a shell lift, and replacing all the lower rivets, I think the bucked rivets are the way to go.
Sounds like a fine idea to me.
I've got a little time to decide if I'll pull the shell on not (but I DO expect to at this point).
What equipment will I need if I want to buck real rivets?
There are some good rental centers nearby - can I expect to be able to rent what I need for a day?
Thanks.
-Chuck
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Old 04-12-2004, 04:31 PM   #23
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Bucked rivets

Quote:
Originally Posted by funchucky1
Sounds like a fine idea to me.
I've got a little time to decide if I'll pull the shell on not (but I DO expect to at this point).
What equipment will I need if I want to buck real rivets?
There are some good rental centers nearby - can I expect to be able to rent what I need for a day?
Thanks.
-Chuck
Chuck,
You won't find rivet tools at your local rental place, unless you live near an air base or aviation facility. Here is a good primer on bucking rivets.
RV rivets
There are lots of kits available on the web. Do a little research, or I can send you some other sites. Plan to spend $300 for a good kit, including a #3X rivet gun, bucking bars, clecos and clamps. Less if you want to try eBay.
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Old 04-12-2004, 07:57 PM   #24
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OK, Don.
I get the idea.
I read all the rivet stuff. My kind of exact precision, frankly.
But $300 is clearly prohibitive, when I'm looking at MAYBE a couple hundred rivets. Olympics may be the way to go (well, at least if I can rent a shaver from someone).

I DO know that a local rental place rents air rivet guns (but I fear it's for pop rivets, I'll have to go and look myself), but I think it's only for large rivets - aka 1/4" diameter minimum.

Anyway, am I correct in thinking that using a #21 drill bit (or 5/32") to drill out the bucked rivets around the outside, then replacing them with 5/32" Olympic rivets (and shaving them, somehow) will suffice? I've been able to do a nice job on the Olympic rivets with a Dremel tool.

Did I mention I'll give you a dollar to come get my toilet out?

Thanks!
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Old 04-12-2004, 08:20 PM   #25
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Chuck

I would use the #30 (1/8) to drill out the buck rivets - that way if you do goof up and make the hole bigger, hopefully it won't be bigger than 5/16".

Also another trick is when you drill the rivet, don't drill all the way through - just enough to clear the head, then tap it out - try not to enlarge the hole anymore than you have to - I know you'll be inlarging anyway, but seems to me like it will insure a cleaner hole.

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Old 04-12-2004, 09:52 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funchucky1
OK, Don.
I get the idea.
I read all the rivet stuff. My kind of exact precision, frankly.
But $300 is clearly prohibitive, when I'm looking at MAYBE a couple hundred rivets. Olympics may be the way to go (well, at least if I can rent a shaver from someone).
Thanks!
Chuck,

Ken is right, the original bucked rivets drill out with a #30. If you want to replace them with Olympic rivets, I think those are 5/32", so you would use the #21 if you are removing Olympic rivets.

One advantage of the bucked rivets is that you can oversize the holes to 5/32, an use a special rivet which has the same head size as the original 1/8" rivet.

If you compare the cost of the Olympic rivets to the bucked rivets, the breakeven point is around 300 rivets. That doesn't include the added labor involved in setting and shaving the Olympic rivets.

Of course the Olympic rivets are 'blind' rivets, which is definitely an advantage if you don't have the interior removed.

Conversely, the bucked rivets form a stonger joint.

It's a matter of individual circumstances.
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Old 04-13-2004, 09:44 AM   #27
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Back from vacation and sun burnt.

My big comment is DO NOT drill out with 5/32 till the shell is being reattatched if you go with the Olympics. There is no guarantee everything will line up perfectly. With bot rivets it is imparative that the hole be exactly right. If oversized then it alows for the possiblility of movement that ultimatly can lead to the failure of the rivet.

I went with the Olympic. I had planned to Buck but My buddy that works in Maintance for Delta and had the tools was a little busy with a new baby. I was in a time crunch so it had to be Olympics.

I'm happy with them for the most part. They did a excelent job of pulling everything together.

As for removing. I took advice from several sources including Mark, Ken and greg. Most of them I used a #30 and drilled till the head came off and drilled into a little of the rivet being very carefull to stay on center. I then took an awl and pushed the remainder out if any was left. If I missed center then once the head was off I took the awl and a quick tap with a hammer usuly freed it but there is the chance it streched the hole a little. Once you get a little pace going it goes pretty quick.
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Old 04-20-2004, 08:36 PM   #28
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OK!

I'm back.
Progress has been slow (well, I haven't spent too much time of the trailer, frankly).
I got the shower pan out. Had to tear it up, though.
Couldn't get the shower drain out, for one thing-- I tried with two screw drivers, then two huge bolts. Then I went to Lowe's and bought the right too for the job - a shower drain remover. Stick it in the drain, the four prongs sits in nice and deep, and put a 1/2 drive ratchet on the end. Give it a turn. Nothing. Throw some grease (elbow) into it - and the tool (All fifteen buck worth) snaps. Get out the grinder, turm it sideways, cut a square hole through the shower pan, around the drain. Voila! Shower pan comes out. At least that enabled me to tear the rest of the floor in the bathroom zone out - and this is all by hand, most of it turning to dust when I aimed the shopvac toward it. Now I just need to cut through the rest of the shower drain line (from above) that holds the small square of shower floor (and pan) up.

Anyway....
I'm currently back to the idea of NOT taking the shell off. Maybe the bad weather and winds and rain and tornado warnings we've been having had something to do with that.

I have cleaned out the inside a bit more- and all the lower interior skin is out now. Some of it will be VERY tricky to replace - one piece goes over the upper panel on the left, then under it in the middle, then it splits to go over and under later....you get the idea. The fact that some parts are Zolatoned and some are shiny will help with that.

And I've taken pages and pages of notes, and several rolls of film, and I've labeled almost everything with a Sharpie. Sometimes, I've even remembered to do it on the BACK side.

What I'm currently envisioning:

1. Remove all floor except a ring about 6" wide from all around.
2. Systematically remove chunks of said ring, while slipping 5/8" blocking inbetween channel and frame (outriggers, etc).
3. Sanding, prepping, POR-15'ing, maybe painting frame as needed.
4. Replacing flooring in sections; using plywood lengthwise, split down the middle (on an angle on center edges, of course). I imagine I'll epoxy the edges and seams. And predrill whatever holes I can, and epoxy them, too.
5. Haven't decided to use 5/8"ply or combo of 3/8" + 1/4" yet.
6. Haven't decided (looking for input) - do I place my insulation on the frame, etc, then floor on top of that? Or attempt (and struggle) to glue or staple the insulation to the flooring prior to placing it? Neither of these sounds easy.
7. Once I'm re-floored, I'll replace the interior skins.
8. Did I mention I then need to replace the ENTIRE interior? At least I have the whole old interior to use as templates.

I am excited - the fridge works.

-Chuck
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Old 04-20-2004, 08:59 PM   #29
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OK, OK.

Who's in Central Illinois, with tooooo much time on their hands?
I'll supply the Coronas.

-Chuck
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Old 04-21-2004, 08:22 AM   #30
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Funchucky1,
Glad to hear you have a plan coming together. You'll be glad you took a little extra time to think through all the options.
Regarding the shower drain: according to my research, there was a left handed shower drain bezel made in late 1955 at the request of someone named Wally Gyam. It didn't catch on in the trade and was abandoned sometime in 1956.
Good luck, keep us posted on your progress.
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Old 04-25-2004, 07:03 AM   #31
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Dang that Wally!!


OK, Yesterday was the day.
The turning point.

I've been removing the floor, starting around the edges. The areas that are water-damaged (and ANT-INFESTED) come out easily, but the screws in the channel are harder to remove because they don't just unscrew (since there's no wood for them to unscrew from).

I've been liking the idea of not removing the shell, yet still replacing the whole floor.

Things that should be easy, though, aren't: Setting my saw, for instance, to cut through the flooring without hitting the frame members. In some areas of tough plywood, I'm not cutting deeply enough, and the stuff's hard to get through; in other areas, without changing my depth, I hit the frame. I think the wood is swollen in areas.

To shorten a long story, I can now visualize much of the frame. The interior sections are nice, almost shiny and black.
The outer ends, like the outriggers - appear to have only surface rust.

BUT---The front crosspiece, directly under the front window, and the rear crosspiece, essentially directly under the rear window, are rusted. The front one has rust HOLES, The rear one is RUSTED THROUGH on the curbside.

THIS BLOWS!!!!!

So, to save the 'Stream from the scrap pile, my alternative is a body-off restoration of the frame.

HELP ME!!!!

I've got specific questions; I'll address them a little later.
My son is cranky at the moment......
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Old 04-25-2004, 11:08 AM   #32
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Funchucky,
Sounds like your son has a right to be cranky. Look at the pictures in my photo album, esp frameoff04,5,6,11,12. Your situation is the same as mine. I lifted the body for four reasons:
1. Easier to remove and replace the floor
2. Easier to do the frame repair
3. Easier to install new greywater tank
4. Easier to upgrade wiring and plumbing
I know these don't all apply in your case. I think you are right to revisit your decision about lifting the body or doing a total frame-off now that you have discovered the frame damage.
Best of luck, funchuck.
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Old 04-25-2004, 02:44 PM   #33
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Well, who knows, maybe those DO all apply.


One thing I hadn't initially realized (for some reason) is that when I drill out the rivets around the perimeter, it will allow the belly pan to drop; at the same time, it'll release the outside skin - from the channel and from the small channel piece in the radii - that hold everything to the floor.
What I mean is that on the straight sides, the channel will stay affixed to the flooring, until I take out the screws and bolts; no problem.
But in the front and the back (as soon as the corner curves begin), drilling out the rivets will leave few distinct things behind: the belly pan on the ground, the body ready to be lifted, the small piece of L-bracket (that held the sides to the floor, back when there was a floor) to drop into midair.
I picked up my lumber today for the interior bracing.
And I removed the wrap / strip from the front and the rear to access all bolts.
And I gathered my sawhorses.

My plan is to lift the body, rest it on sawhorses, and pull the frame out from underneath.

How heavy will the body be? (200 lbs? 650 lbs?)???

How concerned do I need to be about it blowin' away? (It's always windy as heck here!)

How many sets of sawhorses will I need? (One front and one rear is obvious, so my question is how rigid the body will be - will I need a center support as well)?

OK, Outta time for the minute.
My wife's off tomorrow (read that as: I have a relatively free day, and it's NOT supposed to rain, I don't think)....so tomorrow may be the day to drill out the rivets.

One thing I don't get - so many people refer to removal of the belly pan as an easy deal.

But taking out those rivets - and letting the pan down---- I will need to get it back together, and it seems to me that will NOT be easy! The body will have to sit atop the newly skinned frame (new floor, that is), then the belly pan has to arrive and be held in place, then the outer skin over that - since the belly pan is sandwiched between the frame/channel and the outer skin. I don't doubt that it can be done or that I can do it, but I can't fathom how it would be easy.

-Chuck
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