Frame Rot

[FC7039]

Originally Posted by monocoque

Hey FC, what do you mean "blind, not olympic?" Do you have any photos of the rivet line from the backside?

The one picture of the layers shows the back side of the rivets. They have holes. If that is hard to see I can try to get better pictures.

In dismantling the trailer, I mostly attributed the many "non standard" building "techniques" as just who and when was working that day. I did not consider repairs. I know of some repairs as the aluminum is not the right kind (clad), but all the other mixed and matched pieces of assumed were just low paid wage earners slapping together the trailer.

I do know the cabinetry that the sink sat in was low skill. The front table and benches were also very low tech, mostly I view it as utilitarian. Maybe as AS made more they improved the luxury of the trailers, but my 1950 was not.

[monocoque]

Okay, I'm still learning about rivets. Haven't reached rivet master status... yet! 130 posts remaining and counting down and then I will have arrived at the magic number 5. Wizard status!

So there is a blind type rivet but not of the olympic species. Apparently blind rivets are much easier to install and will save a technician time. Although quality seems to suffer.

[swhite832]

Todd,
Did you ever determine which metal stock was stiffer? C-channel or square tubing?

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by swhite832

Todd,
Did you ever determine which metal stock was stiffer? C-channel or square tubing?

I'm not an engineer, and so my technical language (among other things) is probably wrong, but to me "stiffness" would seem to depend on the (web) thickness of the steel. Might also be based on the type or shape of the steel. Both types, tube and channel, are available in a range of thickness from thinner to thicker.

[FC7039]

Originally Posted by monocoque

Okay, I'm still learning about rivets. Haven't reached rivet master status... yet! 130 posts remaining and counting down and then I will have arrived at the magic number 5. Wizard status!

So there is a blind type rivet but not of the olympic species. Apparently blind rivets are much easier to install and will save a technician time. Although quality seems to suffer.

I always wondered about what that rivet member meant. Do you need to pay money to get started?

I too know little about rivets, though I have learned some during this endeavour. Blind as I understand it, means "not bucked". Pop rivets are a brand name of blind rivets. I am sure there are more types than I care to know. The type I mentioned in my trailer used to lay one panel over the other, for what ever reason, I take to have been blind as they appear to have a pulled center, thus creating the hollow shaft. The head though, and I am sure many years of aging helps, you cannot tell they are not the original rivets.

[azflycaster]

FC7039 - Rivets are earned based upon the number of posts you make. Currently you are a two rivet member. Yours do not show because you selected a custom user title in your profile. There is no charge for this feature.

Olympic Rivets are blind rivets except they have a solid shaft which allows the head to be finished to look like the original bucked rivets. When you look at the back side of an Olympic you will see three legs holding it in place where a pop rivet expands it's body to secure it.

[Aerowood]

Originally Posted by FC7039

I always wondered about what that rivet member meant. Do you need to pay money to get started?

I too know little about rivets, though I have learned some during this endeavour. Blind as I understand it, means "not bucked". Pop rivets are a brand name of blind rivets. I am sure there are more types than I care to know. The type I mentioned in my trailer used to lay one panel over the other, for what ever reason, I take to have been blind as they appear to have a pulled center, thus creating the hollow shaft. The head though, and I am sure many years of aging helps, you cannot tell they are not the original rivets.

Show me the other side of the rivets and I will let you know what they are.

Kip

[swhite832]

Originally Posted by monocoque

I'm not an engineer, and so my technical language (among other things) is probably wrong, but to me "stiffness" would seem to depend on the (web) thickness of the steel. Might also be based on the type or shape of the steel. Both types, tube and channel, are available in a range of thickness from thinner to thicker.

It does. Perhaps your welder has an opinion on the channel and square tubing you bought for you frame.

In about six months I am going to do the same thing you are doing...with a twist. What is your time frame on your axle order?

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by swhite832

It does. Perhaps your welder has an opinion on the channel and square tubing you bought for you frame.

In about six months I am going to do the same thing you are doing...with a twist. What is your time frame on your axle order?

I'm just a layman when it comes down to it. But if you compare the channel and tube I looked at in making a decision both were many times stronger than the original channel frame. It was a no brainer. Easy to see. Either would be fine in my opinion. I would highly recommend going to the steel store and looking at the steel you're considering purchasing. They'll probably even give you a sample.

Check out the older posts on this thread at the point where I was getting dizzy looking at the strength and weight differences between tube and channel. You might also go to the steel supplier and ask for a catalogue. Triple S in San Antonio. They're literally like candy stores for steel! Do a field trip to the warehouse!

You might also consider looking at salvage steel. This is something I didn't consider which in hindsight I would probably look into. It occurred to me only after the welder decided to return the heavy steel channel we had purchased for the outrigger materal in place of a lighter steel he had sitting out back of the shop collecting rust. (Check out the photos of the new outriggers. Again obviously stronger than the original material. Another no brainer.) That return saved me about $300 bucks. Steel is expensive these days. And salvage steel is just as good as the shiny stuff!

Keep us posted on your progress and findings.

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

Show me the other side of the rivets and I will let you know what they are.

Kip

Look closely at the photos in post 257. There is line of rivets shown from the back-side with holes through the center of the shaft.

Maybe FC7039 could also take a few more photos of these rivets up close.

P.S. Kip do you mean the front side or the back side of the rivets?

[Aerowood]

The exterior side. I'm pretty sure what they are I just need to see the exterior side to confirm it. A really close pitcure.

[FC7039]

This is as close as I can get a clear picture. It is not visible but with a magnifying glass you can see a ring in the center about the diameter of a pencil lead. I drew a ring on the right rivet to give you an idea. (the full size picture is a little clearer but you still cannot see the ring)

As was pointed out it does not make sense, but as with all the other thing in a very old trailer, you just have to deal with it. Think about 20-50 years from now and the next guy asking about what the heck we were doing. I my case, I am giving it my rookie's best. Who knows when and why and by who any repair was done. The person probably thought they were doing it right. Some times cheap and fast is right.

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

I too was somewhat mystified as to why JC would put the new lower panels over the originals. I just don't understand why this is done. I changed these panels on my GT and had no problems at all. Putting a new panel over an old just screams wrong to me, with the possibility of trapping water in between the two panels and causing corrosion.

Kip, I'm considering replacing those panels for the same reason. But I've never replaced a panel or bucked a rivet before in my life...yet. How much trouble am I looking at and what would be the basic tool list for such a project? Those panels also appear to have compound curves. So in addition to a tool set-up for bucking I assume I would also need a metal shrinker/stretcher set. Perhaps a metal brake too? There was a brief discussion of this around post 59 in Toasties' thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...t-38289-5.html Here's a few photos of the panels begging to be replaced. Note that replacing them would at the very least save me a lot of time sanding and polishing out the filiform.

[Aerowood]

Originally Posted by FC7039

This is as close as I can get a clear picture. It is not visible but with a magnifying glass you can see a ring in the center about the diameter of a pencil lead. I drew a ring on the right rivet to give you an idea. (the full size picture is a little clearer but you still cannot see the ring)

As was pointed out it does not make sense, but as with all the other thing in a very old trailer, you just have to deal with it. Think about 20-50 years from now and the next guy asking about what the heck we were doing. I my case, I am giving it my rookie's best. Who knows when and why and by who any repair was done. The person probably thought they were doing it right. Some times cheap and fast is right.

Attachment 61639

Sorry it took so long to reply. Those rivets are what is called a "Friction lock self plugging blind rivet. I have used 2 manufactures, Olympic and Cherry, and they were used for none structural aircraft repairs. We used to call them Oly,s and I haven't seen them used for years. We use a rivet called a Cherrymax now for a replacement. They are very similar to the Olympic rivets used today on Airstreams but the stem does not have the 3 expanding legs. My calalogues are all at work so I can't give a good P/N yet

[Aerowood]

Originally Posted by monocoque

Kip, I'm considering replacing those panels for the same reason. But I've never replaced a panel or bucked a rivet before in my life...yet. How much trouble am I looking at and what would be the basic tool list for such a project? Those panels also appear to have compound curves. So in addition to a tool set-up for bucking I assume I would also need a metal shrinker/stretcher set. Perhaps a metal brake too? There was a brief discussion of this around post 59 in Toasties' thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...t-38289-5.html Here's a few photos of the panels begging to be replaced. Note that replacing them would at the very least save me a lot of time sanding and polishing out the filiform.

If you can sand out the corrosion and save the panels, that would be better in the long run. If you can't, then you can replace them with a straight sheet but you have to remove a curved rib that is in the middle of the sheet but not riveted to it, and replace it with a straight one. I did this with my GT. I only needed to replace one side but had to do both to make it look concentric. For tools all that is needed is the 3X rivet gun, 5/32 rivet set, 1/8 & 5/32 clecos, cleco pliers, and a bucking bar. and drills, shears, etc.
How's the new frame comming, I haven't seen an update on it for awhile.

Kip

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

How's the new frame comming, I haven't seen an update on it for awhile.

I know. I've been docked lately. The welder probably thinks I've dropped off the planet. Wabbiteer is hopefully, patiently waiting on amperage and rod data... Unfortunately I've had other pots on the front burners over the last couple of weekends. But actually we're both waiting on the new set of axles. Probably a couple more weeks before the heavy work. Then we'll weld in the axle mounting plates, bolt up the axles, and essentially we're done! It sure will feel good to get a frame back under the shell. Every time the wind blows hard I shudder...

[monocoque]

Originally Posted by Aerowood

If you can sand out the corrosion and save the panels, that would be better in the long run. If you can't, then you can replace them with a straight sheet but you have to remove a curved rib that is in the middle of the sheet but not riveted to it, and replace it with a straight one. I did this with my GT. I only needed to replace one side but had to do both to make it look concentric. For tools all that is needed is the 3X rivet gun, 5/32 rivet set, 1/8 & 5/32 clecos, cleco pliers, and a bucking bar. and drills, shears, etc.
How's the new frame comming, I haven't seen an update on it for awhile.

Kip

If you look closely at the photo of the curbside panel in post 273 you'll notice a crease in that panel. The first day my trailer was home somebody backed into the driveway and put that dent and crease in the panel. I was similarly crushed. What a welcome home after the recovery. After the interior skins were removed I was able to push the dent out for the most part but the crease remains. It's deep too. I found a $20 dollar set of basic auto body tools at the local south-side auto paint and body supplier I've been meaning to try out. I thought I would first experiment with them out on a few dents in the banana skins. They might also be helpful with the panel but I'm not sure? But the crease? Which is why I'm considering the replacement option. But I suspect the real reason is I'm just itching to replace all those leaky blind rivets in the overlaid panels. Here's few photos of the shiny new tools and banana wrap dents.

[monocoque]

You can see that dent, front lower curbside panel, much better here before it was pushed out from the inside.

[Aerowood]

You need a tool that looks like this. I made this one. The problem with your dent is the extra layer of skin. It would br a lot easier to roll out if you were only dealing with one skin. That good looking devil in the right pic is yours truly.

[monocoque]

El Diablo, yes, I do need one of those highly unique and most sought after tools! I've heard talk about them around the world! What do you call them? AS AW Panel Saver? I'll bet one could get a few pesos for one of those around here supposing one had a notion to do so.

Tell ya what, right now I'm inside taking a break from panel wet-sanding and I must say the Texas summer sun certainly feels like just a place you might find a few devils!