Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-02-2008, 05:54 AM   #201
4 Rivet Member
 
vhord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 375
Images: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
My thinking is that the screws outside the wall-channel are primarily holding the floor down while the bolts inside the wall-channel are primarily holding down the shell. The shell is a lot heavier and hence more likely to exert greater forces than the floor. Yes?
I am not sure it will be the same with your heavier frame but it seems to me that on the original frames the shell actually holds up the frame not the other way around thus the problem with the frame seperation.
vhord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 10:10 AM   #202
Remember, Safety Third
 
Jim & Susan's Avatar

 
1973 27' Overlander
Catfish Corners , Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,605
Images: 39
Gees, I don’t know how I missed this thread before. You’re doing some first class work, Todd. You’re going to a have a much better frame than the factory model.

A couple of observations. I used the same bolts Malcolm shows back in post 169 for the cross-members. That’s what the factory used originally and all were in good shape when I removed the old floor, so I figured they must be a good choice. Around the c-channel perimeter in the outriggers, I used elevator bolts similar to the factory originals, as well (1/4” x 3”, IIRC). We secured these with hardened washers and double lock nuts on top of the bolt. Those large bolts with the rectangular flange pictured in post 196 were replaced with stainless and new flanges. Added a couple of extra to help fight the rear separation issues. Also used lots of sheet metal screws all around the c-channel. When all was in place, I went back and sealed the c-channel fasteners with Sikaflex 221, hopefully to keep some of the water out of the belly pan, in case of the inevitable leak. One thing I wished we’d done differently: use only stainless fasteners everywhere we could.

A couple of questions. I have to admit, I skimmed thru parts of the thread, so forgive me if you already answered these. Are you going to POR-15 the new frame? It’ll be a lot easier on a new frame with no shell to work around. Are you planning on closing up the ends of the box steel to keep moisture out? Seems like that would be easier that trying paint/POR the inside of the box.

Keep up the good work. I’ll be reading along as you go from here on out. Really interesting thread. BTW, I nominate this one for a sticky thread, anybody else agree?

Jim
__________________
www.nesa.org

Air No. 6427
Jim & Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 02:03 PM   #203
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhord
I am not sure it will be the same with your heavier frame but it seems to me that on the original frames the shell actually holds up the frame not the other way around thus the problem with the frame seperation.
After the frame was pull out it was interesting to observe the side-to-side flex in the main rails behind the axles. I didn't notice much up-and-down flex although the original material is definitely quite thin. However, this trailer must have been sitting up quite a bit in the later years rather than traveling and thus I found no rear-end separation.
__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 02:24 PM   #204
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
After the frame was pull out it was interesting to observe the side-to-side flex in the main rails behind the axles. I didn't notice much up-and-down flex although the original material is definitely quite thin. However, this trailer must have been sitting up quite a bit in the later years rather than traveling and thus I found no rear-end separation.
Rear end separation also doesn't happen when the running gear is properly balanced.

Since you have the trailer taken apart, you should do the rear end modification, so that you don't have trouble later.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 03:24 PM   #205
Rivet Master
 
3Ms75Argosy's Avatar
 
1975 Argosy 26
1963 24' Tradewind
Seattle , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,341
Images: 7
Andy,
he's building a brand new frame with slightly stronger stock, so I don't think he needs to worry. : )
Marc
3Ms75Argosy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 04:28 PM   #206
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy
Andy,
he's building a brand new frame with slightly stronger stock, so I don't think he needs to worry. : )
Marc
Then even more so, since the frame does not hold up the shell, but because the shell holds up the frame, additional holdowns at the rear now become mandantory, since the stroger frame is also heavier.

It's a simple thing to do when everything is open.

Andy
__________________
Andy Rogozinski
Inland RV Center
Corona, CA
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 05:10 PM   #207
Rivet Master
 
Aerowood's Avatar
 
1971 21' Globetrotter
Arvada , Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
Please do! I'm sure the welder would be thrilled to have another task tacked onto the job. Post 'em here if you like. I'm sure there are others who are interested as well.
Here are a couple of pictures of the spare tire carrier. the vertical angles mount on the cross member where the "A" frame terminates. The tire sits in the well created by the "A" frame. The forward part extends past the closure cross member at the forward end of the coach and attaches to a bracket there that I know I have but can't find right now
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01878.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	41.3 KB
ID:	59671   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01879.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	50.4 KB
ID:	59672  

Aerowood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 07:47 PM   #208
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,255
Images: 22
Aerowood,

Am I remembering correctly that there are pivot points at the bottom of the vertical angle brackets in your photo? I still have my tire bracket but have not looked at it in a while.

Malcolm
__________________
Only he who attempts the ridiculous can achieve the impossble.
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 08:21 PM   #209
Rivet Master
 
utee94's Avatar
 
1963 26' Overlander
Austin , Texas
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
Then even more so, since the frame does not hold up the shell, but because the shell holds up the frame, additional holdowns at the rear now become mandantory, since the stroger frame is also heavier.

It's a simple thing to do when everything is open.

Andy
Hi Andy,

It sounds like a very logical thing to do, and as always your input is incredibly valuable and much appreciated.

I'm wondering how you would advise to effect this change-- do you use more bolts through the c-channel at the rear, or more bolts/screws into the frame away from the c-channel, or some combination of the above, or something else that I have completely missed?

Thanks!
-Marcus
utee94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 09:05 PM   #210
Rivet Master
 
Aerowood's Avatar
 
1971 21' Globetrotter
Arvada , Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by malconium
Aerowood,

Am I remembering correctly that there are pivot points at the bottom of the vertical angle brackets in your photo?

Malcolm
Yes you are correct
Aerowood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 10:37 PM   #211
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
Rear end separation also doesn't happen when the running gear is properly balanced.

Since you have the trailer taken apart, you should do the rear end modification, so that you don't have trouble later.

Andy
Andy, can you explain what you mean by the rear-end modification? I'm not familiar with this modification?
__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2008, 10:53 PM   #212
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim & Susan
One thing I wished we’d done differently: use only stainless fasteners everywhere we could.

A couple of questions. I have to admit, I skimmed thru parts of the thread, so forgive me if you already answered these. Are you going to POR-15 the new frame? It’ll be a lot easier on a new frame with no shell to work around. Are you planning on closing up the ends of the box steel to keep moisture out? Seems like that would be easier that trying paint/POR the inside of the box.

Jim
Thanks for the support and observations Jim. There is a bolt and fastener supply house I enjoy shopping at just around the corner from the office. I like going in there from time to time and making unusual requests. They really looked at me funny recently when I asked for Olympic rivets! So I'll definitely check into stainless steel fasteners.

I did buy POR-15 at the very beginning before I realized how far the rust was involved thinking this project was going to be a relatively simple repair. I had no idea! So I'm already with POR-15. I even have two colors for a second coat. Triple S steel, the grocery store for steel, had some metal cleaners and primers I plan to check into as well. The raw steel is very dirty.

I'm not sure about closing off the frame? My initial hunch is to cap it off. On the other hand leaving it open would allow it to breath should moisture begin condensing there. So I'm not sure. I'll see what welder thinks.
__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 11:15 AM   #213
Rivet Master
 
Aerowood's Avatar
 
1971 21' Globetrotter
Arvada , Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,041
Close off at least the forward portion of the "A" frame as it is an interstate highway for mice into the belly pan area along with water spray from the tow vehicle.
Aerowood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 01:16 PM   #214
Rivet Master
 
Wabbiteer's Avatar
 
1973 27' Overlander
1972 29' Ambassador
Itasca , Minnesota
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,044
Images: 2
Blog Entries: 2
The POR-15 metal treatment for new surfaces is a potassium hydroxide degreaser and then phosphoric acid w/ an added zinc phosphate kicker to help the POR-15 get well anchored to the new surface. Both steps are water based.

If you want a forever paint job mimic those steps - though they may not be necessary since POR-15 Corporation doesn't know if you are working in the bilge of a boat or painting a V-8 motor or a park bench.

I used 3M abrasive biscuits chucked into a compressed air die-grinder to scour away weathered frame paint and loose rust - and used an angle grinder to clean up welds - and solvent wiped it then painted. So far no problems at all - though next time I am tempted to try agricultural granular phosphoric acid (pH adjust) in water at a 15-20% concentration with a shot of dry-erase-board cleaner added as a surfactant to treat any bright bare metal, just another thing learned surfing the net AFTER the actual work...

Close the A-Frame yolk up - if box beams are sealed on both ends any condensation possible will rapidly react and that's the end of it.
__________________
The days are short and the night is long and the stars go tumbling by.. . ~Airstream~
Wabbiteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 06:59 PM   #215
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
A-frame Wiring

Quote:
Close off at least the forward portion of the "A" frame as it is an interstate highway for mice into the belly pan area along with water spray from the tow vehicle.
Quote:
Close the A-Frame yolk up - if box beams are sealed on both ends any condensation possible will rapidly react and that's the end of it.
So basically you would agree to leave the rear-ends of the tubes open to some extent? Actually the rear bumper will roughly cover the ends. I should also ultimately find some kind of material that will breath but not leave the tubes completely open for all manner critters to take up residence.

Here you can see the old A-frame, new main rails, and forward cross-member being clamped prior to welding. The ends of the tube are flush with the tube cross-member.

BTW actually the hot wire leading from inside the 7-way connector to the electric jack travels through the A-frame. So I'll probably need to cut a hole of some kind through the cross-member tube to access the A-frame tube. The second photo shows the jack wires entering the front end of the frame. Notice the rust!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0160.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	56.2 KB
ID:	59739   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3493.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	58.7 KB
ID:	59740  

__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 07:12 PM   #216
Remember, Safety Third
 
Jim & Susan's Avatar

 
1973 27' Overlander
Catfish Corners , Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,605
Images: 39
I've heard of folks using steel wool for closing holes like this. Some kind of stainless screen would work better, I'll bet. I was more concerned about the inside of the box rusting if not closed off or painted. My impression is that the main frame rails would be one piece only open only on the ends, is that right?

Jim
__________________
www.nesa.org

Air No. 6427
Jim & Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 07:38 PM   #217
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim & Susan
I've heard of folks using steel wool for closing holes like this. Some kind of stainless screen would work better, I'll bet. I was more concerned about the inside of the box rusting if not closed off or painted. My impression is that the main frame rails would be one piece only open only on the ends, is that right?

Jim
Jim, that's right. The main rails are made of 5 inch tube with openings only on the ends. If you look at the photos in post 215, above, you can see the front end of the rail. That rail will eventually need a radius or diagonal cut to allow space for the banana wraps. You can see that radius angle in the second photos which shows the front end of the old frame. I'll need to figure out a way to seal the front of the main rails but still allow access for the wiring to the jack. Here's a little better photo of the wiring route and radius cut in the front end of the old frame.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0114.jpg
Views:	89
Size:	95.2 KB
ID:	59742  
__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2008, 09:04 PM   #218
Remember, Safety Third
 
Jim & Susan's Avatar

 
1973 27' Overlander
Catfish Corners , Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,605
Images: 39
Dang, forgot about that wire. My '73 is wired similarly. How about welding a piece of 1" conduit inside the 5" tube with openings on both ends where the wire enters/exits? Then you could seal (weld) around it and the back end of the 5" tube to keep all the miosture out of there. That might work.

Jim
__________________
www.nesa.org

Air No. 6427
Jim & Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2008, 06:30 PM   #219
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
triple-double secrets of shell levitation

The welder is out fishing and I've been out of town this past weekend. So work on the trailer has slowed momentarily.

But here's a few fun photos of the levitation. The first photo shows the shell "floating" 5, count 'em, 5 cinderblocks high off the ground on the right hand side! That's about chest level for me. The left-hand side is 4 cinder blocks high. Believe it or not the trailer is level in the photos in spite of appearances due to the grade of the driveway.

The second photo shows the location of the jack just below the 4x4. This was the only jack I used during the entire process. The actual lift was done entirely solo --one man. The jacking point was just inside each cinder block column directly below the 4x4. Note the small level on the 4x4 which I quickly learned was a very important consideration in the process of lifting a shell this high of the ground.

And a couple of photos taken from behind the curbside and roadside columns. And finally photos of the foremost jacking points street-side and curbside shown from the inside.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4157.jpg
Views:	91
Size:	67.9 KB
ID:	59819   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4152.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	61.5 KB
ID:	59820  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4165.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	66.9 KB
ID:	59821   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4164.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	65.8 KB
ID:	59822  

Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0109.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	45.9 KB
ID:	59829   Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0110.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	79.8 KB
ID:	59830  

__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 07:00 AM   #220
Rivet Master
 
monocoque's Avatar
 
1975 29' Ambassador
San Antonio , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 517
Images: 10
The layer cake....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4156.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	54.3 KB
ID:	59861  
__________________
Todd

“Complications arose, ensued, were overcome...savvy?”
- Captain Jack Sparrow
monocoque is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how to check for frame rot ? oldvws Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 28 03-02-2007 07:37 AM
Rust Rot in the Rear Frame Bumper Area HamiBambi Bumpers & Bumper Storage 13 09-19-2006 01:40 AM
"Frame rot" 23' airstream land yacht????? gjkkbberg Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 5 03-14-2005 05:58 PM
Rot Dr. Mariner Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 5 04-15-2004 08:25 PM
To rot or not to rot. Charming Wino Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 15 03-01-2004 10:39 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.