Frame Failure - 22 foot International

[M2HB]

It appears that Avion and Silver Streak used strong frames. How did they attach their frames to the shell? I know that it is different, and I know that they rarely have the issue that Airstream has. I've never taken an Avion trailer apart, mainly because I never had the need to.

[dannydimitt]

Andy, You are so very correct in that the shells are built very well !!
The skin on my 22 never wrinkled at all and the door always opened and shut just fine. The shell being very well fastened to the frame in the very front and rear would be a great way to build a trailer. But for the fact that there are no floor Joists , the OSB flooring laying on top of the frame with a few weak outriggers to the left and right walls looks good on paper till the main frame breaks in half just behind the rear axle transferring the entire load to the rear outriggers and as they slowly break due to metal fatigue the center part of the frame and floor where the axles are under slowly rises up toward the ceiling wrecking the cabinets along the way , and if the trailer were to continue down the road the great shell would be dragging the pavement on its rear but would still maintain it's integrity . The frame HAS to be able to carry the load of the trailer and stuff in it ! anything less is unacceptable especially in an AIRSTREAM which has been for decades synonymous with THE VERY BEST , it is a shame what has become of the brand. But with a little effort , they can remedy these problems and continue to build legends.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by dannydimitt

Andy, You are so very correct in that the shells are built very well !!
The skin on my 22 never wrinkled at all and the door always opened and shut just fine. The shell being very well fastened to the frame in the very front and rear would be a great way to build a trailer. But for the fact that there are no floor Joists , the OSB flooring laying on top of the frame with a few weak outriggers to the left and right walls looks good on paper till the main frame breaks in half just behind the rear axle transferring the entire load to the rear outriggers and as they slowly break due to metal fatigue the center part of the frame and floor where the axles are under slowly rises up toward the ceiling wrecking the cabinets along the way , and if the trailer were to continue down the road the great shell would be dragging the pavement on its rear but would still maintain it's integrity . The frame HAS to be able to carry the load of the trailer and stuff in it ! anything less is unacceptable especially in an AIRSTREAM which has been for decades synonymous with THE VERY BEST , it is a shame what has become of the brand. But with a little effort , they can remedy these problems and continue to build legends.

Based on over 46 years experience repairing Airstreams and writing the crash book some 43 years ago, I hate to tell you, but facts are facts.

Your frame broke where it did because of vibration, simply caused by lack of proper running gear balance. A secondary effect could be a bad axle, excessive hitch bar rating and/or excessive rated tow vehicle, or a combination of these things.

That has happened hundreds of times, and will continue unless balancing is properly used.

A broken frame, is not the result of design, but is the result of improper use.

That has also proven itself over the course of many years and many failures.

Andy

[M2HB]

There is no doubt that the shell is a significant part of the structure on an AS trailer. The first time that I studied one was when I was looking at an Airstream Bambi. Seeing the 3" structural channel frame on a 19' trailer, it was obvious that the shell had to be part of the structure. That was the point where I knew that I would definitely rebuild my Avion camper and build a trailer for it. There is no way that the Bambi could do what I wanted it to do. There is a reason that it only holds 24 gallons of water. Once wet it can only hold less than 500#. I'll bet most owners are over gross weight when traveling and don't even know it.

As far as the failures go on the 22' AS trailers, I wouldn't mind getting a bad one cheap (with a perfect shell) and building an entirely new frame for it. It seems to me that the shell will keep the frame from twisting as much as it normally would. I would like Andy to give us some ideas on how to fasten them better. My idea would be to use 5" (maybe 6") structural channel with 3" (vetically centered) structural channel cross members and outriggers, with 2"x2"x 1/8" angle iron to make it flush with the top of the frame. For the 22' model, I would use a single Flexiride 5200# axle and I would give the trailer more ground clearance. I would put at least 80 gallons of water underneath it (most in front of the axle). It would sit a little higher but with full water it would still have a low center of gravity. There is a reason that I would use a single axle. With rubber torsion axles you actually get more strain on each axle than you do with a leaf spring axle. Some rubber torsion axle manufacturers actually make you order the axles 1.25x heavier than your combined gross weight. An example would be that a tandem axle 7,000# trailer that would normally take two 3,500# axles would now need two 4,375# axles (as if they actually make that rated axle). The reason that they do this is because the rubber torsion axles don't have an equalizer like leaf spring axle have. With a single axle, the frame won't have the need to twist as much because it acts more like a tripod when it is being towed. It is supported at three points instead of 5 points. Picture pulling an AS trailer through a parking lot with 6"+ speed bumps. The entire load of the trailer is on the first axle, then the second axle.

The beauty of the leaf springs are the equalizer. On normal road surfaces, the rubber torsion axles ride better. I think that a tandem set of rubber torsion axles attached to an equalizer (rocker) might be a nice way to go. The attachment points would be a small steel member to take the place of a leaf spring. It would require shackles just like the leaf springs have. That gives me something to work on later.

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Based on over 46 years experience repairing Airstreams and writing the crash book some 43 years ago, I hate to tell you, but facts are facts.

Your frame broke where it did because of vibration, simply caused by lack of proper running gear balance. A secondary effect could be a bad axle, excessive hitch bar rating and/or excessive rated tow vehicle, or a combination of these things.

That has happened hundreds of times, and will continue unless balancing is properly used.

A broken frame, is not the result of design, but is the result of improper use.

That has also proven itself over the course of many years and many failures.

Andy

ANDY - I rarely dispute with your opinions BUT THIS TIME?

First - Airstreams 43 years ago were made with Alclad aluminum and had solid one piece ribs - neither are true now. Airstreams have fewer rivets tying the Ribs and the shell together than they did 43 years ago. The shell isn't CAPABLE of holding the frame together!

Secondly most of these 22' Airstreams had frames break with relatively LOW miles - and most of those miles on interstate highways. Almost all of them broke within months of the warrantee expiring.

Thirdly and most important - how can "improperly balanced tires and rims" cause the frames to break ONLY ON THE 22 foot Airstreams? The factory doesn't balance the rims and tires any more.... Centramatics CAN balance them dynamically. And again it's ONLY the 22 footers!


The lousy OSB makes a weaker floor, Airstream makes a weaker shell, then they plop the whole mess on a weaker frame and bad stuff happens. "Engineering for Cheaper" finds the failure point.

I'm sure every Airstream - every trailer - and every car ever manufactured could benefit from having properly balanced running gear. But having a FRAME BREAK because your tires are out of balance?

Couldn't possibly be because the frame was crap in the first place?

Mr. Spock and I both think this is simply NOT LOGICAL.

Paula

[M2HB]

The most significant problems seem to be on the 22 foot models, but many of the others are having issues. I can't imagine owning a travel trailer and have to worry if I have anything in the gray or black water tank when I travel. I don't want to have to worry about that. There are AS owners that feel that traveling with waste water will destroy their "dream" trailer. My "dream" trailer would be able to handle any kind of normal usage. There are folks who worry if they have the rear bath. Why? There is no doubt that all modern AS trailers could use a better frame.
My question is, how to attach the shell to a better frame so that I don't create any structural issues. I can build a better frame for less than $1,500, not including the axles for the 22' model. The biggest hassle is buying 40' material and cutting it the proper length to get it home.

[dannydimitt]

A broken frame, is not the result of design, but is the result of improper use.
Sounds like something straight out of the Airstream lawyers CYA playbook .
Seems strange that if 100 customers come in and buy new 25 ft trailers, uses them as normally as folks generally do after spending a fortune on the very best trailer money can buy, and 5 years later after pulling them around with mostly half ton pickups and unbalanced factory tires and wheels , they are
mostly in as good condition as the day they were new.
But if the same 100 folks bought nice new 22 ft trailers instead of the 25 footers towed them with the same 1/2 ton pickups as normally as they would have had they bought the 25 footers , MMMM? But Wait ! Somehow 5 years later the 100 folks towing the 22 footers have abused and misused their very expensive travel trailers to the point that the perfectly engineered frames under the 22 footers are breaking in half right and left causing untold amounts of agony and nashing of teeth for the Airstream sales Gods who have to explain as to why the 22 ft trailers with their perfect frames are falling apart !
If only the poor dealers could administer some sort of test on folks prior to allowing them to spend their hard on money on an Airstream travel trailer to find out in advance if this person was going to abuse the new trailer to the point of breaking the frame. If they found the potential customer a likely trailer abuser they could simply send them to the competition to abuse their trailers instead ! This would prevent any future abuse to the wonderfully engineered 22 footers.
P.S. I have some wonderful ocean front property just outside of Phoenix that I could let you buy right !

[M2HB]

Hey, watch it. I'm from Phoenix and I already own that ocean front property.

[dannydimitt]

Hows the surfing ?

[M2HB]

It's not too bad once I get the sand out of my eyes.

Back to the original post, I wonder why the NHTSA doesn't take this issue up. It appears that most of them are breaking behind the axles. Can you imagine what could happen if they break in front of the axles.

[Friday]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Based on over 46 years experience repairing Airstreams and writing the crash book some 43 years ago, I hate to tell you, but facts are facts.

Your frame broke where it did because of vibration, simply caused by lack of proper running gear balance. A secondary effect could be a bad axle, excessive hitch bar rating and/or excessive rated tow vehicle, or a combination of these things.

That has happened hundreds of times, and will continue unless balancing is properly used.

A broken frame, is not the result of design, but is the result of improper use.

That has also proven itself over the course of many years and many failures.

Andy

I'm afraid something have changed since 43 years ago Andy. You've got a model that has a factory-kit available specifically to address this defect. Yes, DEFECT. New, or relatively new trailers in the early production years failed in the same spot, in the same way. As these trailers aged and leaked... this caused a secondary issue when the floors couldn't spread the load to the outriggers evenly, and some of them started to buckle.

This model was obviously engineered at the very edge of failure, so that of any little thing was out of whack, the system would be overloaded and something would fail.

The whole 'the shell is the frame' spiel is tired nonsense. You went on for years about how you couldn't hang so much as a towel to dry off the back of an Airstream or it would fold in half. Now, Airstream makes a bike rack that... guess what... mounts to the FRAME.

You need to rewrite your book... and recognize that once in a while, even Airstream screws up.

Once spring arrives, my 22' will be on the classifieds. I hope you buy it if it so great.

[Friday]

Originally Posted by M2HB

It's not too bad once I get the sand out of my eyes.

Back to the original post, I wonder why the NHTSA doesn't take this issue up. It appears that most of them are breaking behind the axles. Can you imagine what could happen if they break in front of the axles.

There are complains on file... but what needs to happen is every person that has this issue needs to file a report with the NHTSA... then when a threshold is met, they can say with certainty that there is an issue.

With only a few people taking that extra step, and Airstream stepping in to weld the kit onto the frames, I'm sure to them it looks like everything is under control.

It is because there are no deaths or major injury that this hasn't made their radar... expensive RV repairs? Probably not really news to them.

[dannydimitt]

Very well said Mr Friday ! Has your frame broken in half or have you seen the tale tale signs of future calamity in the rusty streaks on the side of the frame to the rear of the back axle ? Mine had not yet failed but all the signs of metal fatigue and uneven floors were there. I hope I have remedied any future problems with the truss that was welded under the trailer.
It would have been so much easier and ,yes less expensive , to have had a REAL frame put under the trailer at the factory !
We are planing a journey next summer through your beautiful Provence as well as Alberta and the Yukon. Would you mind if I asked you a couple of questions about your laws . Things have probably changed since my Dad and I last ventured through your neck of the woods heading for Alaska back in 1970.
Danny And Rachael Dimitt

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Friday

There are complains on file... but what needs to happen is every person that has this issue needs to file a report with the NHTSA... then when a threshold is met, they can say with certainty that there is an issue.

With only a few people taking that extra step, and Airstream stepping in to weld the kit onto the frames, I'm sure to them it looks like everything is under control.

It is because there are no deaths or major injury that this hasn't made their radar... expensive RV repairs? Probably not really news to them.

Do you mean the "frame beef up kit"?

If so, that was designed to prevent "rear end separation" and nothing else.

Needless to say, it did not prevent nor did it cure rear end separation.

It was designed to cure the buckeling of the axle mounting plate.

The cause of the axle mounting plate bending, was due to the fact that inadequate welding to the frame, was very obviously the culprit, and not a weekness of any kind.

Andy

Andy

[ventport]

If not a weakness, and the axle mounting plate just needed more welding, why did AS make up a kit to re enforce the area? Why not just recall the affected trailers and re weld the mounting plates?

[Foiled Again]

Andy - I appreciate you trying to be loyal to your "bread and butter" - but even the most doting loving parent sometimes has the duty to say to a wayward child

YOU CAN DO BETTER AND I WON'T ACCEPT MEDIOCRE!

It appears that Airstream isn't listening.... If They don't change pretty damn quickly, well my next Airstream will be an Avion. I can buy a nice 30' for $10K and put $25K into it and I'll have a strong frame, strong axles, a custom design, and about $50K in my pocket!

Paula

[dongubrud]

As most of you know I bought one of the first 22' int trailers in 2002. It turned out to be a disaster. Shortly after and less than 20,000 on it, the frame completely collapsed, un-tow-able. The factory trucked it back on a flat bed truck and put another frame under it. I broke also. The new and improved one.
What I have now is an Airsteam Trailer that I paid $30,309 for that is now worth nothing! The frame is a collage of patches and misc welds. It sags on one side about 2 inches. Nice outer shell tho. And since I live at NTAC I must own an Airstream. But I do have options; I could buy another, more reliable, Airsteram. I could move out of NTAC and buy another RV brand. Or just tough it out. I'm 78 years old now, not much fight left in me. I hope you guys can get AS to change and become the responsible Icon that they use to be.

[dannydimitt]

Hello Don !
I have a question ? what is NTAC ? I don't think I ever heard that one before. Do you ever make it down to the Bastrop - Austin area ? My coffee pot is most the times on .

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by ventport

If not a weakness, and the axle mounting plate just needed more welding, why did AS make up a kit to re enforce the area? Why not just recall the affected trailers and re weld the mounting plates?

I do not the authority to speak on beholf of Airstream.

The answer to your first why is easy. To beef up the frame to prevent rear end separation. Obviously a "JOKE" in reality. BUT, it did stop the buckling of the axle mounting plates.

Why not a recall? You will have to ask Airstream. The issue, generally speaking, took several years to show up.

We must understand that engineers learn in time, ..............well at least most of them do.

Dexter engineers still say "no shocks needed" with their torsion axles, yet every Dexter axle I saw at Jackson Center December 21st, 2012, had shock brackets on them.

Andy

[pullswitha40]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you can hurt a trailer with a bigger truck?????