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Old 10-18-2010, 02:30 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimelmoreiii View Post
We're considering a 2004 22'' International CCD that has never been used and has been stored inside since new. It has been towed a couple of times, maybe 200 miles total. It's has the desk in the back.

In light of what I've read here, is this a trailer we should pass on? It seems well priced so spending a bit on preventive frame stiffening doesn't worry me too much, but I don't really know.

Will Airstream provide a fix? Is stiffening the frame something that should be done anyway?

I like the trailer and the layout, but sure don't want to end up with junk a few thousand miles later.
I have an '02 22' International A/S - a different model than the CCD but the same frame. We have no belly pan so I can see the frame easily. So far not problem. I did buy at a good price, but later had floor rot that cost over $4K to repair and replace. Still - we are very happy to have this trailer. I do not know how different the weight distribution is on the A/S versus the CCD version that might affect frame performance

However, I now am very careful of the frame. I inspect when I can. I keep the holding tanks empty always when moving. I try to never load up the rear end in any way. I always put down my support jacks in the rear when parked, etc., etc.

Bottom line: Depending on how good your deal is, I would take it. You could ask someone how much frame repair will cost, when and if you need, then factor that in on the price you pay.

Nevertheless, do inspect carefully. Frame and floor integrity around the edges are especially important. Make sure yours has the frame stiffener done by the recall they had several years ago.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:13 PM   #82
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Talked to Jim at Airstream and he said that though frame stiffeners weren't covered under warranty since this is a 2004, it's something to be aware of but not to be concerned with now since it hasn't been used. They do have the stiffeners if needed later. The weights and axels are different on the 2004 from the 2003. Don't know if that makes some difference ... maybe? A certified repair shop in Oklahoma City said they have never seen that frame issue unless the trailer had been overloaded or jacked up for service at the wrong point on the frame.

Thanks for the advice and please don't hold back any other experience you've had.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:18 PM   #83
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I've been following the threads regarding frame issues with 22' Internationals for some time, and monitoring my frame regularly. About 10 days before leaving for our summer trip to Wyoming and Montana I discovered cracks in the frame behind the axles both curbside and streetside... YIKES! I communicated with Airstream customer service by email and by phone, referencing service bulletin #131. They agreed to send the frame stiffening kit at no cost, and I had a local welder install/weld the kit, taking about two hours to complete. The total cost was under $200. The welder also fixed a small crack in one out rigger just in front of the curbside wheel well.
We traveled about 3,600 miles on our trip to WY and MT, mostly on pavement but a short distance on gravel/washboard. So far, the fix has held, and I see no new evidence of cracking of either the frame or outriggers. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and considering reinforcing the outriggers as a preventive measure. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:20 AM   #84
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Vertical welds????

Quote:
Originally Posted by zedex View Post
A couple observances. Dons 2003 ccd has disk brakes where my 2004 has drum. Airstream must have replaced Dons drums with disk axles.

Also. i notice in some pictures that the frame is welded vertically. This is bad news. You never weld a frame vertically. You always weld a frame along its length and not across its tube section. This vertical weld weakens the frame and if its going to crack it will be at the weld.
I will have a look at my 2004 tomorrow as i just imported it into Canada from the USA. I also have a letter of recall from Airstream and the letter states there are no recalls for this model.I have a trailer inspection this week and we will see how it goes. If i see any frame damage the **** will hit the fan believe me.
I'm not sure which welds you are talking about but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. How can you weld an outrigger to the main frame without using a vertical weld? The frame cracks on my '03 are horizonal, below the outriggers where the frame is pushed in by the outriggers until the curbside frame cracked. Jim
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:59 AM   #85
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I am talking about patches welded to the frame covering a crack. Outriggers should not be welded 100%. They should be stitched. Plus outriggers generally dont span the full 4 inches of the frame.
I built trailer frames when i was younger and the general rule with frames,any frames. Do not weld vertically.
Welding is my business so lets just say i know a few things about frame repair.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:43 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TankerIP View Post
I have an '02 22' International A/S - a different model than the CCD but the same frame. We have no belly pan so I can see the frame easily. So far not problem. I did buy at a good price, but later had floor rot that cost over $4K to repair and replace. Still - we are very happy to have this trailer. I do not know how different the weight distribution is on the A/S versus the CCD version that might affect frame performance

However, I now am very careful of the frame. I inspect when I can. I keep the holding tanks empty always when moving. I try to never load up the rear end in any way. I always put down my support jacks in the rear when parked, etc., etc.

Bottom line: Depending on how good your deal is, I would take it. You could ask someone how much frame repair will cost, when and if you need, then factor that in on the price you pay.




Nevertheless, do inspect carefully. Frame and floor integrity around the edges are especially important. Make sure yours has the frame stiffener done by the recall they had several years ago.
Never travel with any fluid in the rear tanks of any '22 CCD. And I wouldn't store anything inside rear either. Also I would not put any ''bumper stickers'' on your bumper!
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:02 AM   #87
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Regarding what I am thinking might be a good deal on this unused 22' 2004 International CCD . . .

I've looked online and haven't found any like this for sale. Found many of the same year or close to it in other models in similar lengths. Then I compared some NADA pricing to asking prices. It's shocking. NADA is usually about half of the asking prices.

So how do I determine if something is the right price?
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:42 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zedex View Post
I am talking about patches welded to the frame covering a crack. Outriggers should not be welded 100%. They should be stitched. Plus outriggers generally dont span the full 4 inches of the frame.
I built trailer frames when i was younger and the general rule with frames,any frames. Do not weld vertically.
Welding is my business so lets just say i know a few things about frame repair.
How do you suggest cross members be welded to the frame?

Andy
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:03 PM   #89
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Correct Price

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimelmoreiii View Post
Regarding what I am thinking might be a good deal on this unused 22' 2004 International CCD . . .

I've looked online and haven't found any like this for sale. Found many of the same year or close to it in other models in similar lengths. Then I compared some NADA pricing to asking prices. It's shocking. NADA is usually about half of the asking prices.

So how do I determine if something is the right price?

The correct price is "in the eyes of the beholder" RV 2004 AIRSTREAM M-22 CCD prices, specs and options at NADAguides.com These guys seem to be way understated. It says retail is $40K (new), retail now about $15K. If you can get it for that, I would say you are doing real good. Look around on the internet for dealers, etc who are selling 22' trailers and make a comparison to decide what you are willing to spend. Good Luck!!!!
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:14 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
How do you suggest cross members be welded to the frame?

Andy
Crossmembers welded 100% on the top and stitched at the bottom . If the crossmember is the same height as the frame then its welded 100% top and bottom. A small stitch in the center. Depending on how the frame is designed you weld accordingly. Not all rules apply.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:14 PM   #91
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I have read through this thread and have a question. What is the location of the failing out riggers?

If the frame is cracking aft of the rear axle that would put additional load on the outriggers forward of that point and those are the outriggers that I would expect to fail.

As far as welding vertically on the frame. The outriggers have 2 failure considerations just as any cantilevered beam. Shear and bending. Bending on a cantilevered beam is minimal close to the fixed point, and not generally a consideration. Shear can be better controlled with a tab welded to across the top of the frame as that is the point of greatest load on the outrigger. Welding the complete vertical seam is a waste of welding rod as any crack will start at the top and work its way down the weld.

Likewise fish plating the vertical sides of the cracked frame is a waste. A box beam achieves it's strength from the separation of the top and bottom plates of the frame. To correct a failure in this type of beam the top and bottom plates of the frame should be welded or fish plated to achieve max. strength. Unfortunately to d it right that would require removing the body to get to the top of the frame.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:12 AM   #92
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Frame cracks!!!1

HowieE, Take a look at my photos. The horizonal cracks are at the bottom of the curbside outriggers just forward of the front axel. The frame is actually pushed in and cracked. I understand that the buckled frame has put pressure on these outriggers. What's your thoughts. Airstray
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:12 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
How do you suggest cross members be welded to the frame?

Andy
FYI, the factory has replacement outriggers that span the full 4''. They are to be sister welded to the original outriggers. These new ones will not buckle the frame at the bottom of the ''short'' riggers.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:59 AM   #94
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Airstray's photos!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DON GUBRUD View Post
FYI, the factory has replacement outriggers that span the full 4''. They are to be sister welded to the original outriggers. These new ones will not buckle the frame at the bottom of the ''short'' riggers.
My '03 22ft. CCD. The frame cracks are curbside just forward of the axel. The buckled frame is, of course, behind the axels. [ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Click image for larger version

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Old 10-22-2010, 10:52 AM   #95
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my friend with the 22' 2003
We both have the same model, same problem, same solution.
We both bought a lemon and are stuck with it unless we can bring legal action against AS. Not only is your frame a total failure[ and outriggers] notice the rust on it. The paint they used was water base, not oil.
Your solution is the same as mine. Patch it up the best you can, keep a eye on new cracks as they will continue to accrue. It is simply a poor design and the factory will do a little as posible to correct it. Consider converting your RV to a construction field office or a hot dog stand.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:22 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DON GUBRUD View Post
my friend with the 22' 2003
We both have the same model, same problem, same solution.
We both bought a lemon and are stuck with it unless we can bring legal action against AS. Not only is your frame a total failure[ and outriggers] notice the rust on it. The paint they used was water base, not oil.
Your solution is the same as mine. Patch it up the best you can, keep a eye on new cracks as they will continue to accrue. It is simply a poor design and the factory will do a little as posible to correct it. Consider converting your RV to a construction field office or a hot dog stand.

All true, and add mine to the list of 13 22' CCD's, including the one up there at the same time that I have know of as mine that they said had nothing in common with my damage. That one was only 4 SN's less than mine, probably the same day or couple of days off the line, what could they have changed in that time.

I now do have the frame kit installed - much to their disagreement that it would solve my or anyone elses issues with floor rot and frame warp.

I will quote them "It's all how you maintain your trailer, it's not Airstreams fault!"

Good luck to all of you, Mike
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:05 PM   #97
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Airspray

Would you explain each of you pictures as to just what we are looking at and from what angle.

Your 5th and 6th picture. Is there any deflection in the vertical flange of the channel or just the deflection that is clearly seen along the bottom?

What are the new pieces you show and where are they going?

My early comments were based on the assumption that Airstream was still using a box beam frame. A channel frame for trailer of this weight is a joke. I would expect them to fail if the fat lady walked to the back of the trailer while parked.
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:16 PM   #98
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I wonder if they had a bad shippment of frames during that time or? I have a 2004 and my frame looks good and is not rusty like yours. Curious to know if the floor of the airstream is an integral part of the whole structure. Floor rots out due to leaks or high moisture climate. Integral part of structure is lost, frame collapses. With a channel frame the floor should be part of its structure if you ask me.
Those dinky little brackets looks pretty lame. WTF airstream?
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:51 AM   #99
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One Frame Problem Solved..

I am really sorry to hear more and more people reporting frame problems with their 22' Internationals. It's a terrible knot in the gut, thinking the trailer you spent so much money on (and are still paying for) may become lawn furniture long before its time.

My 22' was a later model than most having problems, and a significant contributor to my frame issues were the tow system my Airstream dealer set up for me with too heavy WD bars for my 1 ton truck and wimpy framed trailer. My hope was that, after the frame was repaired, not running any WD bars whatsoever would be gentle enough on my frame that it would hold up. Still, I never knew... Then there was also the fact that, even though my 1 ton truck never even noticed the 5000# trailer attached to it, if I ever had to execute a radical maneuver while towing, the lack of WD bars could allow the trailer to take control of things, resulting in a not so desirable outcome...

My frame issue was resolved on by an act of God, a freak hailstorm in Colorado on 4 July. Golfball size hail can certainly do a number to thin aluminum. While not as bad as the pictures of some of the hail damaged Airstreams on this forum, the damage was enough to total my trailer. When the insurance company asked if I wanted to buy back the trailer on salvage it didn't take much thought for me to answer "No thank you."

I was relieved when they came and towed away the trailer that had certainly brought me enjoyment but with it a lot of worry and disappointment.The timing couldn't have been better as I had been living in the trailer full time until only a month before the hailstorm. Like I said, an act of God..

I still like the look and image of Airstream trailers, though I don't think I will buy another one, certainly not a new or late model. They are just too expensive and, at least in my experience, not built well enough to justify that expense.

Sorry to go off topic; I guess technically this would be considered a highjack. However, I figure since I have previously contributed on this thread with my own "frame failure" issues, it is fair for me to post how my frame issue was resolved.

Again, I am sorry to hear of those with catastrophic frame failures and even more disappointed that Airstream does not appear to be standing behind what certainly seems to be a systemic problem resulting from a poor design. Best to you all and God bless. jk
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:41 AM   #100
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All true, and add mine to the list of 13 22' CCD's, including the one up there at the same time that I have know of as mine that they said had nothing in common with my damage. That one was only 4 SN's less than mine, probably the same day or couple of days off the line, what could they have changed in that time.

I now do have the frame kit installed - much to their disagreement that it would solve my or anyone elses issues with floor rot and frame warp.

I will quote them "It's all how you maintain your trailer, it's not Airstreams fault!"

Good luck to all of you, Mike
I did not know there are 13 of us suckers. With the degree of damage you have a totally new frame is your best bet. Second option is remove the body and rebuild your frame. Third option is '' hope '' you get in a wreck and the trailer is totaled [and nobody gets hurt] and your insurance will pay off. Right now your insurance will not cover factory defects. Right now your RV is untowable and unuseable. And the factory will not help you, it is out of waranty. Good luck.
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