Finally fixing the floor

[Chuck]

See post 49 for pics of the grey tanks sitting in place; you can see the vent locations there.
For the forward tank, the vent will come up under the street side bunk, in the aft-most compartment where the heat vent is located; the galley drain will connect, which is both the galley drain, and the vent.
This tank's drain (not visible in the pic) will be just adjacent to the vent opening...it will drain with a pipe heading straight back, along the frame rail, toward the black tank.
The aft tank will vent into the bathroom closet. The bathroom sink will also drain into here.
This tank drain is the "default" one that VTS puts in, in the center/back wall of the tank. From here, the line goes into the black tank compartment, takes a hard right, and over to the black tank outlet.

If you're using the original black tank, plumbing the drains will be very easy...plenty of room.
With this black tank that I bought, there is not enough room to tie 2 different grey water drains coming from 2 directions. Took me a long time, and many trips to the hardware store for more/different fittings to figure it out. This past weekend I finally solved it by cutting more metal from the cross members to give me the room...pics will follow.
But anyway, none of this will apply if you're using just one grey tank, and/or keeping the original black.

[Chuck]

So I've been test-fitting my tanks...was going to put the floor in, but a friend of mine convinced me to get as much of the plumbing completely squared away, first, as it would be so much more difficult to do from below.
Connecting the drain lines has been quite the puzzle. There just isn't enough room to connect/drain 2 tanks, and tie into the particular black-tank drain that I chose. If the tank outlet were further aft, it would have been easy. Anyway, I got that part figured out, eventually. had to cut a little more out of the x-members to get it all to tie together, but it'll work.
I'll have pics soon.

I had to re-do most of the tank straps that were whipped up by my welder a few months ago, because when I went to put them in (took them out to paint everything), I found that they are quite flush with the bottom of the frame/xmembers. Lots of fussing and re-bending to get them to fit, and not be hanging below. But I'm still concerned with "tank sag"..it'll still push down against the belly pan...how much can the belly pan fasteners take? Is this going to cause a problem?
I tested one of the tanks today...put it in place, and filled it up, and yes, it sags a bit...not too much, though. I still don't know "how much is too much" though. I'm wondering if I should add a piece of 1/4" luan under the tank to stiffen it up a bit?
That might not work with the other tank (not enough room).

Another goof I discovered: I had planned on positioning the aft tank as far to the curb side as possible..stuffing it all the way into the main frame rail, to maximize the space on the other end, as my shower drain needs to squeeze in there. As I was checking the underside, thinking about the belly pan, it dawned on me that I can't rivet the pan up through the main frame rail on that end-the tank is consuming the whole space.
I noticed from the original belly pan holes that they're spaced apart quite a bit...8" or more in some areas. I'd be able to get a rivet on either end of the 22" wide tank, and only be missing one, according to this spacing. So maybe its no big deal, and I should just leave it. I could bridge the area with a piece of 1/8th flat stock aluminum, riveted up to the frame on either end of the tank.
Or I could move the tank over just a tad, (3/4")and make sure that any rivets are on the very outer edge of the frame rail, so as not to puncture the tank. I'll have to re-notch the x-member to let the drain pipe through, but that's not too difficult. The working space on the other end of the tank is what concerns me...there is room. I actually dug the shower pan out of storage to make absolutely certain. But its a very tight fit. I suppose 3/4" more isn't going to make much difference, either way.

[Chuck]

Pics to illustrate the long-winded post above:





I removed the black tank support so that you can see the valve/collector. You can see the tab with the bolt hole in it, just above the grey valve handle.
So the idea here is that the grey valve will go straight out the side, with an extension rod. Not the most convenient location. Its about 14" from the frame rail to the outside wall of the trailer, so it'll be a bit of a reach. I could take a piece of 1" flat-stock aluminum, and make a bracket so that there can be a really looong extension to the handle...I've seen the factory use this method on late model trailers. (they put a really large bracket, 6" wide, that supports the 3" dump pipe, and the black/grey valve handles on either side of it, so that they are all flush with the exterior wall of the trailer). It dawned on me that it might be neater to just spring for the valve with the flexible handle, mount it 180-degrees from what's in the picture, and then I can route the cable under the black tank and into the bumper trunk.

[Chuck]

Just to make absolutely sure that there would be space, I pulled the shower pan out of the attic, and put it in place so I can see the drain location. You can see, there isn't much clearance, but all that is required is ">0". The trap will be parallel to the tank wall, then 90-degree elbow into the side of the tank.

[Chuck]

I finally installed the VTS tail light cans.
It was a bit of a task to get the originals out...the bottoms of the steel cans were so badly corroded, but I managed to get them pried out. Had to do quite a bit of sanding in the recesses of the housing to clean up the heavy crud.


I was able to salvage the fiber-optics...just had to drill a hole in the back of the new cans. The original grommets were in fine shape (I expected them to be all dried out, and crumble to pieces...but no).







People have left numerous comments on VTS's product page about having to cut a slot or a notch for the wires, but I'm not convinced that this is necessary. Its definitely not necessary for the stop/turn can; the bottom of the housing leaves plenty of space for the wires to pass into the trailer without pinching. (you can see in the above pic, the "floor" of the center hole is notched out). For the reverse light, though, the housing just has a notch in the back wall...the wire in the can comes out the bottom. It "might" be able to fit there without pinching, but its impossible to see the back side when you're test-fitting, so I just went ahead and cut a slot with the dremel.





Another interesting thing I discovered re: the fiber-optic sensors: seems a bit of a design flaw--the glass ends that collect the light from the bulbs are actually plastic, and the ends appear to have melted from the heat of the bulbs. (the plastic was all rough/craggly, and opaque). For kicks, I took a polishing wheel on the dremel, and some rouge, and found that this can be polished out. Might not last...but when I tested the lights, the indicators on the side of the trailer are much brighter than they used to be.

[Jim & Susan]

Man, is post 65 timely for me. Thanks for all that great detail. For those reading along, my street-side tail light assembly fell off the camper a couple months back. I was able to save it before it crashed onto the roadway and disintegrated. I just happened to notice that I couldn't see the turn signal in the fiber optic sight along the side of the camper and pulled off the road to check it out immediately. Chuck helped me McGyver a way to get it Fastened back on and make it basically functional. I've been trying to to figure out a way to make a permanent repair. Chuck just provided the perfect road map.

Fabulous work, Chuck. I didn't realize that VTS was making those cans. Looks like I'll need to order a set. The solution for me a few years back was to recondition the cans that were already there using POR-15 and some paint. They were in rough shape. New is better in this case.

So a couple questions. The grommet is removable from the fiber?? Mine is in good shape too, but I didn't even try to pull it off. Fiber optic cable (as I'm sure you know being an I.T. guy) can be very delicate. I was worried that I might break the fibers if I messed with it too much. Also, have you tried an LED light?? I'm guessing they are a lot cooler than the original incandescent bulbs. Much more expensive, of course, but the money might be worth it in this application to save our ancient fiber.

Great work, Chuck. thanks for posting this.

Jim

[TennTex]

Re those replacement cans:

I've posted this before, but I would recommend using sealant only in a bead around the outer edge of these cans. If visions of water gushing in those big openings behind the cans make you get a bit too generous, getting that can out for some unforeseen reason (e.g. wiring problem) will be nigh impossible.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Having fun,

Alan

[thesignlady]

Oh crap...Alan thanks for the tip. Here I was thinking I had sealed up every possible source of moisture infiltration on my trailer, yet I totally did not seal those cans....Heading out at first light to put a light bead of sealant on to fix that before the moist season begins

[HiJoeSilver]

Originally Posted by thesignlady

Oh crap...Alan thanks for the tip. Here I was thinking I had sealed up every possible source of moisture infiltration on my trailer, yet I totally did not seal those cans....Heading out at first light to put a light bead of sealant on to fix that before the moist season begins

You can use some butyl tape or plumbers putty, they'll seal and stay soft and removable in the future .

[HiJoeSilver]

Chuck,
"I tested one of the tanks today...put it in place, and filled it up, and yes, it sags a bit...not too much, though. I still don't know "how much is too much" though. I'm wondering if I should add a piece of 1/4" luan under the tank to stiffen it up a bit?
That might not work with the other tank (not enough room). "
The tanks need support, the belly pan material alone will not support the weight of the tanks. Hard to tell exactly how you've got them supported in the pics. But those tanks relatively full bouncing down the highway will rip the belly pan off the rivets. This is one area where you may want ta accept the belly project down an inch to support the tanks. Trailers that have tanks original usually have pans made of galvanized steel that's thicker than the belly pan supporting the tanks and bolted up with 1/4" bolts to support the weight. Also most plastic tanks aren't capable of supporting themselves without some full support across their entire bottom.
Many ways to get some support under there.

[HiJoeSilver]

Chuck, saw the dry fit of the shower as well , did you actually put a p trap on there to check the fit, it'll be very difficult to get one under the tail piece and stay above the bottom of the cross member/frame. If it doesn't fit, a 1.5" HEPVO will screw right to the tailpiece and not project down as much.
Joe

[HiJoeSilver]

Thinking about this some more you have the shower drain going into the side of the tank right ?
May really want to give HEPVO a look. With water in the tank going around a corner or just sloshing around driving the very little height difference between the tank and shower drain and the tank inlet on the side will make it very easy for water to be forced back up through the p trap and into the shower to splash and slosh around.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Man, is post 65 timely for me. Thanks for all that great detail. For those reading along, my street-side tail light assembly fell off the camper a couple months back. I was able to save it before it crashed onto the roadway and disintegrated.

It was actually YOUR reporting of this that served as a warning to me to NOT attempt to whack those cans out from the inside with a hammer...I didn't realize how little was actually holding the whole housing onto the trailer. Even though I have the advantage of having access to the back side, the perimeter of the fixture is completely covered in sealant, so I still can't see what is actually holding that housing on. I probably would have knocked the whole thing right off the trailer.

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

So a couple questions. The grommet is removable from the fiber?? Mine is in good shape too, but I didn't even try to pull it off. Fiber optic cable (as I'm sure you know being an I.T. guy) can be very delicate. I was worried that I might break the fibers if I messed with it too much. Also, have you tried an LED light?? I'm guessing they are a lot cooler than the original incandescent bulbs. Much more expensive, of course, but the money might be worth it in this application to save our ancient fiber.

Yes, the sensor has a cone-shaped "boot" over it that just slips over the cone-shaped grommet (you can see in the pic of the back-side of the can), and its just friction holding it on. I couldn't get it off by hand when I first touched it..wasn't sure what was holding it, but I took a pair of pliers and very gently gripped it, gave it a gentle twist, and it popped right off.

I don't think this is "data" grade fiber optic. I'm not sure that even existed in the early 70's...but anyway, it didn't take any rough handling to get it done. I The new cans came with incandescent bulbs, but yeah, I'll probably replace those with LED equivalents. That may not work well if they're directional, though.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by HiJoeSilver

Chuck,

The tanks need support, the belly pan material alone will not support the weight of the tanks.

That's not what I meant; the tanks are supported by steel straps, (see post #49) but they're only 1" wide, so the plastic tank bottom sags in between, enough so that it may press down on the belly pan.

Originally Posted by HiJoeSilver

...But those tanks relatively full bouncing down the highway will rip the belly pan off the rivets.

While I don't plan on driving with full tanks (almost always camp where there is a dump station), you never know when the need might arise, so...yes, I am concerned.

Originally Posted by HiJoeSilver

This is one area where you may want ta accept the belly project down an inch to support the tanks. Trailers that have tanks original usually have pans made of galvanized steel that's thicker than the belly pan supporting the tanks and bolted up with 1/4" bolts to support the weight. Also most plastic tanks aren't capable of supporting themselves without some full support across their entire bottom.
Many ways to get some support under there.

Draw me a picture!
I went with the straps, because that's what I've seen others do. I think Colin Hyde just straps them, too.
But I'm open to suggestion.

What if you just took a flat piece of the same galvanized pan material, and bolt that up to the underside of the x-members? then you wouldn't need an aluminum belly pan in those areas. I would imagine that would be as strong as the 3-sided box...a "box" would only be needed to hold up a tank that is deeper than the frame cavity.
How do you bolt that up? the x-members are fairly thin; you would need to either weld captive nuts, or use a riv-nut to have something for the bolts to thread into.
The other issue is that since these tanks are in adjacent bays, the x-member that separates them isn't wide enough to bolt 2 pans; maybe you can get a single sheet that is 61" x 48", with just one set of bolts in the middle?

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by HiJoeSilver

Thinking about this some more you have the shower drain going into the side of the tank right ?
May really want to give HEPVO a look. With water in the tank going around a corner or just sloshing around driving the very little height difference between the tank and shower drain and the tank inlet on the side will make it very easy for water to be forced back up through the p trap and into the shower to splash and slosh around.

Yes, well...a p-trap under the shower was the "original" config...there is room for it to project down exactly 5". The factory did leave a big hole in the pan there, and had a plastic bowl-shaped cover (provides an extra 2" of depth, like a tank pan!) over it to allow access. maybe the trap did protrude slightly, but it looked flush to me, when I took it apart. Anyway...I was just looking at HEPVO yesterday, and yeah, that would be great...problem is that its too long. It might have been able to fit, if I had ordered that tank with that in mind. I could have had the inlet on the side of the tank put in further aft, but I didn't know about this gizmo then. I'll probably just have to use the drain-plug method of backflow prevention.

[Bauxter]

Originally Posted by Chuck

Pics to illustrate the long-winded post above:





I removed the black tank support so that you can see the valve/collector. You can see the tab with the bolt hole in it, just above the grey valve handle.
So the idea here is that the grey valve will go straight out the side, with an extension rod. Not the most convenient location. Its about 14" from the frame rail to the outside wall of the trailer, so it'll be a bit of a reach. I could take a piece of 1" flat-stock aluminum, and make a bracket so that there can be a really looong extension to the handle...I've seen the factory use this method on late model trailers. (they put a really large bracket, 6" wide, that supports the 3" dump pipe, and the black/grey valve handles on either side of it, so that they are all flush with the exterior wall of the trailer). It dawned on me that it might be neater to just spring for the valve with the flexible handle, mount it 180-degrees from what's in the picture, and then I can route the cable under the black tank and into the bumper trunk.

Chuck, Are the pipes dissimilar materials...ABS/PVC? If so, are you using a special solvent? I see at least a couple solvent welds.

Mike

[Chuck]

Yes, I used this stuff called "transition" cement. Only needed for the connection between the abs valve flange and the pvc double-ell, (the other 1 1/2" abs pipe you see there is just a scrap used for test fitting; I used pvc for the actual final piece.).
Got it all glued up yesterday, except for the 3" line that goes from the black tank into the bumper, because I haven't decided how I'm going to terminate that, yet. I might put a threaded adapter on the black tank adapter so that it can be easily dis-assembled, should the need arise...either way, it'll also use the transition glue. Can't get abs around here...not "code" for houses (for some reason), so nobody stocks it. A local RV mechanic told me that they use pvc all the time, (for the same reason), and have had no problems with this transition cement.

[HiJoeSilver]

I'd consider adding an extra strap or 2 that will go across the center portions of the tank, put it through a bike inner tube and the rubber protects the plastic fram chafing. Just don't want it supported on edges and ends only.
Glad to see you're using transition cement. Seen people think you could just use pve cement. It might seem to work but not even close.

[Chuck]

These straps do cover the middle of the tank. The tank bottom still does bulge down in between the straps, though. (and it does say on the sticker on the tank that it should be "fully supported").

Looking at other threads where people have had to re-fab their factory black tank pans, it seems that they were 20-gauge galvanized. Why not just get a sheet of that, cut to the size of the tank, and lay it on the straps? It doesn't seem to me that bending it up into a box would add strength (maybe I'm wrong).
It dawned on me that the battery box is aluminum, and supports the weight of a 70-lb battery, holding it up by a 1/2" inch wide flange that sits on the plywood floor--I put a caliper on it, and it is about .08", which equates to about a 12-gauge. Now, a big sheet of that would be really expensive...but galvanized...and the much thinner gauge that they make the tank pans from, that wouldn't be too much $$.

[HiJoeSilver]

Some sheet metal to span the bottom betweem the straps is good. Galvanized sheet isn't very expensive. Check with a sheet metal shop to get partial sheets to save money.