Finally fixing the floor

[Chuck]

That works great...on the walls you can reach.
these, you really can't. maybe before I put them back in, I'll treat 'em w/ future floor wax, or something, to try and seal them up.

[Chuck]

Anyone ever seen this kind of fastener?

yeah, its an "acorn nut". There were a few of these used on the visible areas of the tank cover, and a row of them along the shower pan, where it attaches to the bulkhead. I thought there would be a screw on the other side, when I took the first one off. But it looked like a rivet tail, and someone just stuck these decorative nuts on, with a dab of silicone or something. I put a nut driver on one to take it off, and it just kind of popped right off.
Another one did seem to have threads on the rivet tail. I guess its possible that the thread on the nut could have carved a thread-like pattern into the soft aluminum rivet tail. (?)
Anyway, these didn't look like normal pop rivets; it seemed like they had a tail on both ends, and were impossible to drill out. I wound up having to slide a hacksaw blade between the tank cover and wall and saw them off.

[Chuck]

So I appeared on "the VAP" the other night...what fun!

Even though I've started demo, I still haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do irt a new tank arrangement. I've been toying with the idea of putting a larger black tank in, "while I'm at it". but its not a simple thing to do, with this trailer.
As the pics show, there is no capacity for a bigger tank in the existing location; but there is plenty of room under the floor. Lots of other folks have installed tanks in that location, but not with a bathroom arrangement like this. the problem here is that the existing tank is holding up or connected to everything else in the bathroom; not just the toilet. It supports the vanity and sink, and is attached to the shower on one end, and the closet on the other...no way to just "remove" it.
So my thought was to put a tank under the floor, and replace the existing tank with an empty box that would hold up the toilet and vanity and sink, cover it with the existing tank cover, and put a 6" riser pipe down through the floor to the tank below. From inside, the bathroom will look "original", and there'd be no need to redesign and manufacture the interior.

So I ran it past the VAP guys, to get their take on it, and they were generally against the idea. And being a little nervous about being on the radio, I forgot to bring up a couple of points, as the conversation evolved the way conversations do. It became more about "13 gallons is enough," rather than other structural reasons not to do it.
What I failed to mention after it was too late (and not wanting to hog up too much of everyone's time), was that its not really that I need to carry around 25 gallons of toilet effluent; yes, the small tank is a little bit "tight" on longer camping stays, so a little bit more capacity would be handy; but also, its that there is space for lots more below, and it could be used for not just poop, but extra grey water capacity, either manually or with a transfer pump. ( I have friends, for example, who have very large black tanks...bigger than they'll ever fill, and they dump their dishwater down the toilet in order to conserve grey water tank capacity.)

Anyway...there are still other reasons why it might not be a good/practical idea. One problem is that with these typical stock tanks, they're wedge shaped, and with this particular bathroom layout, the toilet would sit above the very shallowest part of the tank. I can see a potential "black hills" type problem right there. The other re-habs I've seen, where people put large wedge-shaped tanks in also happen to have the toilet located toward the street-side corner of the trailer, right over the deepest part of the tank. stuff that goes into the tank in that area will have something to float/disolve in immediately. In my proposed arrangement, there won't be any water directly under the toilet until the tank is nearly full.
A work-around for that, though, is that instead of a pipe that goes straight down from the toilet to the tank, you could put an elbow under the toilet, and a 3" pipe running sideways toward the deep end of the tank, and drop into the tank over the deep end. House toilets don't have to go straight down, right?
well...problem there is that these toilets don't use much water. would it be enough to push things all the way through the pipe?
RJ Dial made his bath arrangement like this. don't know how/if it works well in practice, though.

thoughts?

[Splitrock]

Or . . . use a bumper dumper





or. . . .

a five gallon pail and a bag of kitty litter.

[Chuck]

Turns out my dad has a jig-saw (saber-saw?) that has attachments that enable it to flush-cut by off-setting the blade. Also has one that puts it out in front of the shoe, so you can cut right up to something.
This'll work as long as I'm not cutting on top of a cross-member. (which would require the depth-adjustment of a circular saw).
My thought is that I'll cut the floor flush with the edge of the cross member, so the jig-saw should work. For re-assembly, I'll attach a piece of angle-iron to the x-member to make a support/nailer for the edge of the replacement plywood.

[Chuck]

I'm thinking I may have to remove the bulkheads that form the bathroom. I finally got the closet wall out, (which was quite difficult), and now I can see that the lower skin extends forward of the bulkheads and terminates behind the bunks. don't think there'll be enough room to work with them just peeled back; so the walls will have to come out...and that means the bunks and overhead cabinets, too...which means the trailer will be half-gutted.
oh, well. here it comes....
Bunks and cabinets shouldn't be too hard to get out. (ha! famous last words...).

[Chuck]

Seems I spoke too soon on the VAP the other night re: the condition of my black tank. It is indeed cracked at the top, around the threaded flange. I guess I've been lucky that I never filled it up all the way to overflowing.

That could also explain why when the tank level does get high, it gets kind of stinky; there was room for fumes to waft up through the plywood top plate and around the outside of the toilet mounting flange. spilled water has been getting in there over the years, damaging the plywood plate, so fumes could come up the other way, too.

So, it looks like there will be a new black tank. Still in question is whether it will be a stock replacement, or a retro-fit beneath the floor.

Back to that subject: Here is what RJ did...not mounting the toilet directly above the black tank:




My question is whether there is enough "whoosh" from these low-flow toilets to propel the effluent all the way through a horizontal run of pipe to the drop into the tank.

[Chuck]

anyone? comments?

Oh, well. Got most of the bathroom removed, now. Also removed the first piece of skin--the center panel, which was easy to remove. The other skins that wrap around to the straight side walls...well, those aren't coming out unless the bathroom bulkheads come out, as these skins attach forward of the bulkheads. Which means the bunks and overhead cabinets need to come out, which means the trailer will be half-gutted.

[Chuck]

Ok, its done. Spent most of the day pulling out everything aft of the galley. Amazing how much bigger it feels now. Bulkheads came out pretty easily, and with that, I was able to get the skins off of one side. Mouse Central in there!!

Found a couple of Reader's Digests from the early 80's under one of the bunks. Also, a receipt for $1000 worth of Traveler's checks from 1975! (big money back then...PO must have been one of them "Airstream Millionaires"

...And lots of mouse poop.



So, now that I've gone this far...should I replace 4' of floor, and go "clean" all the way up to the first original joint? or should I just do the originally planned 2'?

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Chuck

.....So, now that I've gone this far...should I replace 4' of floor, and go "clean" all the way up to the first original joint? or should I just do the originally planned 2'?

Yep, without a doubt, replace the whole 4 foot section. You've gone this far, just do it. You won't regret it 10 years from now.

Jim

[polarlyse]

I did a partial floor job in the forward section of our '85 Excella. The tool that saved me was what they call the multitool. It's a vibrating tool with an assortment of blades and cutters. Can work in very close quarters and also flush cuts. A company named Freud had the patent and was the sole source for many years but now they all have them. Bosch, craftsman etc. so they have come down in price. Very useful and versitile. Give them a look, Home Depot and Lowes carries them. See if they will fit your needs. Good luck with your ambitious job.

[Chuck]

yup, got a line on one. I'm sure it'll come in handy when the time comes.

got the skins out and more grody insulation, and critter-cache.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Yep, without a doubt, replace the whole 4 foot section. You've gone this far, just do it. You won't regret it 10 years from now.

Jim

Well, on closer inspection, it does appear to be actually "necessary". And that oft-uttered phrase, so common on this site..."while I'm at it" strikes again: I think I"ll take out the next sheet, as well. Not so much that it "needs" to be replaced, but because it looks like it would be easy to do. 99% of it is between the wheel wells. only a 2" sliver of it is along the aft edge of the wheel wells and extends out to, and under the u-channel. On the curb side, that narrow sliver is where the really-bad-design care-free awning support arm mounts; a lag bolt goes through the belt line trim, and directly into the plywood, giving huge floor-rot potential. otoh...that fragile-looking strip of plywood amazingly appears to be in pretty good shape; I guess that never leaked much...but the strip next to it is not. It is part of the rear 4' plywood section, and has pretty much disintegrated. So, while it looks like it is possible that one can drive a lag into the edge of the plywood floor without having it leak and rot-out, there's a 50/50 chance that it will. I really don't relish the idea of re-attaching this awning. But pricing out a zip-dee, which would mount to the ribs, and not the floor...WHOOO, dawgies, even a used one (if you can find one) is out-a-site expensive.

any thoughts on a rot-proof method of attaching this awning are appreciated. (I'm thinking maybe drilling an over-sized hole for the lag, filling it w/ epoxy of some sort, and then driving the lag into the epoxy.).



here you can see the joint between the rear sheet of plywood, and the next one up. wheel well is on the left.



same area, zoomed out for scale


peering in through the battery box from outside. You can see the edge of the forward plywood sheet sticks up above the aft sheet; It seems to be due to the fact that the wheel well flange, which is attached to the trailer frame. it has a thickness...probably equal to the size of the plywood edge that protrudes. Looks like they just slapped the plywood down on top of the wheel well, and squoze it together w/ the bolts. I suppose this is only cosmetic, as these areas are completely hidden on the inside of the trailer..no finish-floor, or anything like that. But the top of the battery box, which is screwed down to the plywood floor, had to be shimmed in a lame attempt to make a clean attachment, and I imagine, with the notion of preventing battery gasses from leaking inside the coach...it did neither, and is very amateurish-looking, even to an amateur like me. a 1/4" rabbet along the underside of the forward sheet of plywood would have made it all fit like a glove.



a slightly different angle of the last pic, showing how this narrow strip of plywood came to be rotted. A lag screw goes through that awning arm bracket, into the wood.




I haven't got much done in the last couple of weeks due to weather and other constraints; I did manage to get the wraps off, but it was a huge time-suck to do it. turns out they were put on before the skins, and riveted up high with really blind rivets. very hard to access, front or back.
And now, my own back isn't co-operating, so thats going to blow another weekend. But otherwise, I'm pretty much ready to remove plywood.

So how do you remove the elevator bolts? I'm sure you can't just un-screw the nuts from below, as the factory bent all of the bolts. Can you just cut them w/ a grinder and a cut-off wheel?

another thing I noticed: why did they use elevator bolts in the u-channel, bolted "up" from below? why not a regular-old carriage bolt? economy of scale-type thing, for the factory to just have to stock 1 type of bolt?

[Lance M]

Hi Chuck,
You can remove the original "weld" bolts easily with a pair of vise grips on the nut. Clamp it on the nut, wiggle it back and forth and it'll snap right off usually. Tap the bolt out with a punch.
The factory used "weld screws" originally. See this thread. I'm sure that they used them anywhere they could for cost savings.
Hope your back will cooperate with you soon. Keep it up!

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Top

Hi Chuck,
You can remove the original "weld" bolts easily with a pair of vise grips on the nut. Clamp it on the nut, wiggle it back and forth and it'll snap right off usually. Tap the bolt out with a punch.

is that because they're so rusty, or just generally weak?

So...any 1/4-20 SS carriage bolts ok for through the u-channel? did you use a nylon washer to insulate between the SS bolt and aluminum?
I suppose they put the elevator bolts in the channel "up, from below" because it was the only way they'd work. (?)


As long as you're "here"..

I was thinking of using 2 of these tanks, with the outlets facing each other. I've got 3 2-foot wide frame cavities to work with...(the middle has to house the shower drain). So, the forward tank would be the grey tank, facing aft; the rear tank would be the black, facing forward...then I can use elbows and run the drain pipes over to the outer frame rail, just aft of the street-side wheels, using the nearly empty middle cavity.
This way, I could have a tank similar in size to yours...but since my potty has to be mounted toward the curb-side, I could still be flushing into the deep end of this tank.
Also, if the grey tank drain pipe runs along the street-side frame member, I won't be able to keep my BAL stabilizer jack, which needs to be mounted to a cross-member, and there's only one available, and thats the one that forms the black-tank cavity. It may not work, anyway, but a scissor-type jack would.

Now, this would make the dump outlet a little difficult to reach, but it would still be a huge improvement over the original, which is much further away from the outer edge of the trailer, (and more awkward because its a vertical oultet; hard to reach, and hard to see) And I have seen the dump valves located similarly in new airstreams. Lots of other late-model RV's have their dump outlet located in that general area, too, but with the pipes extended all the way out to the outer wall of the unit, putting them in point-blank range of a (seemingly inevitable) tire blow out; I'm still proposing to keep everything inside the frame rails.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by Chuck

is that because they're so rusty, or just generally weak?

So...any 1/4-20 SS carriage bolts ok for through the u-channel? did you use a nylon washer to insulate between the SS bolt and aluminum?
I suppose they put the elevator bolts in the channel "up, from below" because it was the only way they'd work. (?)

I'd say both rusty and weak. Yes, I used nylon washers under the flat washers in the channel.

Your tank plan looks like a good one to me!

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Top

I'd say both rusty and weak. Yes, I used nylon washers under the flat washers in the channel.

...and I suppose those steel "plates" at the frame rail connection should be replaced w/ a chunk of aluminum billet, too? as far as that goes...why no elevator bolts through the main frame rail back there? maybe that doesn't add any strength to the floor/frame connection.

Originally Posted by Top

Your tank plan looks like a good one to me!

Its way bigger than it needs to be, it seems. But thats the only stock tank I can find that fits in all the key dimensions, and is shaped this way.
nothing etched in stone, yet. Much depends on what my welder-BIL sez, when he evaluates things.
One thing about the "bumper-dumper" style is that it is very easy to access...but it may be overly complex to modify the area on my trailer, since that was never there in the first place. The original sewer connector went straight down from the bottom of the tank, making the outlet 20" in from the bumper, and flush w/ the belly pan. just the bayonet ring is protrudes. It pretty much requires one to be on their hands and knees to reach under, see, and connect the slinky. I don't really like being on my hands and knees anywhere near the dump station, thankyouverymuch. touching the ground there with my shod foot is bad enough.

Speaking of tanks...how did you make out with your see-level gauges? I saw them mentioned on your thread, but no details...
(congrats on "turning pro", btw.)

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Chuck

...and I suppose those steel "plates" at the frame rail connection should be replaced w/ a chunk of aluminum billet, too? as far as that goes...why no elevator bolts through the main frame rail back there? maybe that doesn't add any strength to the floor/frame connection.

Chuck, those plates on mine were pretty rusted, so I had a local shop duplicate them in steel. I cleaned them, drilled them, POR-15 them and stuck 'em in. I replaced the large (5/8"?, can't remember exactly) bolts with stainless. One of the things that I noticed about the main frame rails was that there were no fasteners of any kind in those rails except for those large bolts, front and rear. Don't know why that is. Maybe the steel is too thick? Maybe too many fasteners will weaken the rails? Who knows.

Jim

[worldinchaos]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Chuck, those plates on mine were pretty rusted, so I had a local shop duplicate them in steel. I cleaned them, drilled them, POR-15 them and stuck 'em in. I replaced the large (5/8"?, can't remember exactly) bolts with stainless. One of the things that I noticed about the main frame rails was that there were no fasteners of any kind in those rails except for those large bolts, front and rear. Don't know why that is. Maybe the steel is too thick? Maybe too many fasteners will weaken the rails? Who knows.

Jim

I was wondering about this as well. I am getting ready to start installing new floor sections, and started marking out the hole spots on the plywood. That's when I realized the old elevator bolts were only in cross-wise lines on the beams.

Could it possibly be due to the expansion/contraction of metal somehow? More severe effect in the longer dimension of the trailer?

Either way, I would really like to install more screws/bolts this time. Just a matter of deciding where.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by Chuck

...and I suppose those steel "plates" at the frame rail connection should be replaced w/ a chunk of aluminum billet, too? as far as that goes...why no elevator bolts through the main frame rail back there? maybe that doesn't add any strength to the floor/frame connection.


Its way bigger than it needs to be, it seems. But thats the only stock tank I can find that fits in all the key dimensions, and is shaped this way.
nothing etched in stone, yet. Much depends on what my welder-BIL sez, when he evaluates things.
One thing about the "bumper-dumper" style is that it is very easy to access...but it may be overly complex to modify the area on my trailer, since that was never there in the first place. The original sewer connector went straight down from the bottom of the tank, making the outlet 20" in from the bumper, and flush w/ the belly pan. just the bayonet ring is protrudes. It pretty much requires one to be on their hands and knees to reach under, see, and connect the slinky. I don't really like being on my hands and knees anywhere near the dump station, thankyouverymuch. touching the ground there with my shod foot is bad enough.

Speaking of tanks...how did you make out with your see-level gauges? I saw them mentioned on your thread, but no details...
(congrats on "turning pro", btw.)

Thanks Chuck!

I would recommend the use of aluminum plate for the hold down pieces. I used all stainless hardware with nylon washers anywhere there was dis-similar metal contact. I also completely covered all the hardware in the 'C" channel with sealant. You can thin polyurethane sealant to make it a thick paint and brush it on the hardware like you see Aerowood has done on his thread.

The SeaLevel gauges are still in the box in the shop. I just haven't found the time to install them. I'm not too sure if I will.