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2002sheds · 08-05-2020, 09:30 AM

Hi All,
I found a nylon abrasive wheel at WalMart that will be used to clean the double-sided tape remnants on the AS shell and window frames.
AD (stronger) rivets have arrived in different lengths, as has the rivet cutter -- if needed. Time to get spinnin' and tappin' !

David

Aerowood · 08-05-2020, 12:04 PM

Only use the "A" 1100 rivets to re-install the frames with glass in them.

2002sheds · 08-05-2020, 11:53 PM

Hi Kip,
Thanks! I was planning on using the AD rivets for the rear hold down/shell connection and the shell-to-C channel connections, and use the softer rivets for the other panels.

Now you have me wondering, though... why is it better to use the softer rivets around the windows?

Thanks,
David

Aerowood · 08-08-2020, 08:12 PM

You don’t have to hit them as hard reducing the chance of breaking the glass

2002sheds · 08-09-2020, 08:30 AM

Hi Kip,
Thanks! I FINALLY started using my rivet gun! I am still in the practicing phase, and used rivets to join some thin L bracket to an aluminum drip pan for a grill/smoker.

The gun is far more “gentle” than I expected, although I may have the pressure set up incorrectly (it is at about 40 psi). The aluminum rivets deformed perfectly, but my technique is still producing smiley faces.

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail... lots of riveting in my immediate and near future

Thanks,
David

wcronin4 · 08-10-2020, 05:24 AM

Hey David
When you finally develop the skill to perform a task, you finish that part of the project.

This applies to bucking rivets. By the time I got good at doing it, I was done. So you will see more than a few smiles in mine.

2002sheds · 08-10-2020, 08:08 AM

Hi Bill,
Great perspective— thanks ! And keep up the great progress on your project — it is looking good!

David

dbj216 · 08-10-2020, 07:33 PM

Nothing better than a few emoji rivets to look at as you start to use your Ambassador. Those smiles will bring back good memories.

David

2002sheds · 08-10-2020, 07:58 PM

Hi David,
Great to hear from you — it has been a little while

.

My initial test made me wonder if I was doing this correctly. The action of the gun was WAY more gentle than I thought it would be, and that may have made me stay on the river longer, ensuring a smiley face.

I can now understand why practice is recommended. This seems to be nearly as much art as science — at least starting out...

Any tips for cleaning the tow-sided tape off the window frames? And any recommendations for what to use to clean up/brighten the Aluminum will be welcomed as well.

Thanks,
David

Aerowood · 08-11-2020, 09:26 AM

Smiley Faces? What rivet set are you using? The rivet set has to match the rivet head style. If you are using Brazier head rivets you need a # 5 455 set. If you are using Universal head rivets you need to be using a #5 470 set. Makes a big difference.

40 psi? Wow I’ve never used that low of pressure, but if that is what works for you then that’s great.

2002sheds · 08-11-2020, 04:34 PM

Hi Kip,
Thanks for the reply! I will double check, but I think I purchased the Brazier Head rivet set from Vintage Trailer... the smiley faces could easily be my technique, or the psi (holding the gun to the rivet head too long?), as noted below.

As far as the pressure, I am quite uncertain as to what I need. I have only set a few rivets so far, so my frame of reference is very limited. My rivet gun is a 3X Chicago pneumatic. I will adjust the psi to the gun, but even at that I don't know yet what I am looking for (or not)... any suggestions regarding PSI needed to drive these 5/32" Modified Brazier Head rivets?

Pics are of Olympic rivets that clearly have leaked and of the transition from new aluminum to original -- Bucked rivets below, new aluminum held on by Olympics. I am leaning towards removing all Olympics and replacing them with bucked rivets.

This project is becoming a nearly Full (if not Full) Monty...

Thanks,
David

dbj216 · 08-11-2020, 07:30 PM

Go for it. Any trifold blind rivets you can replace you should do it. The extra time, work, and cost is cheap now as compared to having the trailer back together with trifolds in it. They leak as you have seen, and they aren't the strongest rivet in the box.

Colorado David

2002sheds · 08-12-2020, 10:26 AM

Hi David,
Thanks -- your encouragement has definitely kept me going at a few of these rough spots...

Now that I have removed the interior panels and insulation on the curb side, it is clear that there are several places where the C channel is not correctly attached to the shell/floor. It is my guess that I am best off replacing the rivets in the long stretch of skin before "tightening up" those connections... or is it the other way around?

Ultimately, I plan on replacing as many pop rivets as possible, and definitely all of the Olympics, as you recommend. Is there anything wrong with using buck rivets to attach the belt/shell/C channel and upper connection for the banana wraps (while I have access)? I would prefer to do so...

To a man with a hammer, everything is a nail. I have a rivet gun, and I fully intend to make use of it :-)

Thanks,
David

dbj216 · 08-12-2020, 07:35 PM

A solid rivet hammered tight is the strongest joining method. I'm pretty sure the body exterior skins are bucked to the c channel, and do so if you can get your bucking bar behind the rivet. The wraps are just covers and don't add much strength. They are pop riveted through the exterior skin and c channel, wrapped around the outriggers, and then pop riveted to the frame rails after the belly aluminum is installed.

I hope someone more knowledgeable than I will confirm or correct this construction method.

Colorado David

2002sheds · 08-12-2020, 08:20 PM

Hi David,
Thanks!! That sure sounds right to me... but I am concerned about ANY pop rivet, so I am wondering if there is a downside to bucking even those “trim” sections — banana wraps, the lower belt, and the trim that hides the seam between two of the long panels on the sides — the area with the International badge, etc.

I don’t know why, but ever since I read Aerowood’s thread about making his coach as waterproof as possible, I have been very interested in trying to do the same... ambitious, to say the least, but some of this desire is driven by actual evidence that the Olympic rivets leaked...

All the best from dry Northern California !
David

wcronin4 · 08-13-2020, 07:57 AM

David

Let me throw my two cents in. Let’s begin with terms. Even though the channel that runs length wise is shaped like an upside down F, I refer to it as the C channel because of the way the floor plywood slides into the C portion of the channel.

I refer to the channel that runs along the floor of the two end caps as U channel, because of its U shape and the fact that it rest atop the plywood.

1. On both sides running length wise between the caps, the C channel is slipped over the plywood floor then bolted to the outriggers. The outer skin is slid over the C channel until the shell frame members come in contact with the C channel. Then the outer skin is buck riveted to the C channel. AS used regular soft rivets like the kind you get from Vintage Trailer. The strength of the connection between the outer skin to the C channel and the frame is quite remarkable. As an example, when I was lifting the shell off the frame, I overlooked just one buck rivet tying the skin to the C channel: just one plain old soft rivet. Before the realized what I was doing, I was lifting the frame up with that one rivet. I don’t remember how many rivets there are, but their strength is in numbers and the way the C channel is locked into the floor.

2. Once the skin is riveted down, the wrap panels that cover the outriggers and tie into the belly pan are installed. They are fastened with 1/8 pop rivets from the factory. That joint is covered with 1” belting, which, from the factory, was fastened with 1/8 pop rivets. Why pop rivets instead of buck? I suspect it has to do with efficiency since if you try to buck rivet through several layers of metal, it adds complications in properly sizing the length of the buck rivet. In my mind, it is an unnecessary step. Once the belt is installed and properly sealed, these pop rivets are not exposed to the elements.

3. Bucked rivets leak, too. Oly rivets should only be used as a last resort. But just to set the record straight bucked rivets can leak. Once I put my shell back on I started chasing down all my leaks. I had several leaks from bucked rivets. If you’ll noticed there is a white sealant that has been liberally applied to all the buck riveted joints on the inside of the outer skin. Same applies to all the rivet penetrations along the C channel. Vulkem, as it is known, is used to seal all the rivets on the inside. A good solid rivet installation isn’t finished until it is sealed on the inside. When the belt is installed, it is also sealed.

Upshot is this: I think buck riveting wrap pans is unnecessary. The strength of the C channel is in the number of bucked rivets and not necessarily in the strength of one rivet. If you want a leak free AS sealants are your friend. You should be familiar with which sealant to use and where. If you replace Oly rivets with bucked, seal them up on the inside with a Vulkem like sealant.

Sorry this got long.

2002sheds · 08-13-2020, 07:25 PM

Hi Bill,
Thanks very much! I will re-read your post a few times, as I am sure that you have laid out the process really well. And your comment about sealants is definitely not lost on me.

My first question in the meantime is:

What would prevent the pop/blind rivets that hold the belt to the outside (or the trim pieces a little higher up on the sides) from leaking? I am not trying to be a smart aleck... I genuinely don’t know. If sealant is placed over the surface where the post breaks off, that would be unsightly. So there is obviously another reason. I just don’t get it... and I do not see leaks from the trim on the inside, so they clearly work. Again, I just don’t understand.

And, while both you and Colorado David pointed out that the bond between belt and body is not structural, I am seeing the main obstacle as the one that you described — sizing the rivets correctly (and therefore the hassle). It doesn’t seem as if there are additional reasons not to buck those rivets. After all, to a man with a hammer (or buck rivet gun

...

Thanks,
David

wcronin4 · 08-13-2020, 09:18 PM

David

Of all the pop rivets installed to old the trim, badges and belting, I’ve only come across a couple that leaked, and those were confined to the back cap. And many of those were not sealed on the inside. On the small width trim on the 78, a bucked rivet wouldn’t fit in the groove.

I suggest you follow the rule, “Do what makes you feel comfortable” that the fun of redoing one of these old relics, you can make them fit your taste.

I can already tell from your attention to detail, that your Airstream will be first rate. Keep on truckin.”

2002sheds · 08-14-2020, 08:41 AM

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the reply! I also have not seen evidence of the pop rivets leaking on badges, the belt, etc. I have been curious as to why the Olympics (even the ones without rubber in them) will leak, but the pop rivets seem to stay watertight...

I am closing in on the re-riveting of the long middle-height panel. Unfortunately, removing the end caps is necessary to go forward. I have more than a little anxiety about getting these out...

Thanks again, and have a good one !!!

David

2002sheds · 10-02-2020, 09:33 AM

Hi All,
Lots of disruptions, including wildfires in our area causing two evacuations have played havoc on any sort of normal "flow" on the work in the AS.

Now I am attempting to remove the rear end cap. There were definitely 2 kangaroo rats or some other type of rats in the ceiling when we purchased the coach,. One was trapped before the coach made its 100 mile journey from the seller to our place, and, while, the other made the journey (I could hear it moving when I lit the interior with a flashlight shortly after arrival), it must've not enjoyed the bumps and vibrations of its journey, and moved out shortly after it got here -- hopefully, to the woods across the street instead of our house...

Now it is time to clean up after their stay. I am quite intimidated by the task -- I have been removing the window screen and other attached items, and am about to drill out the 1,500 pop rivets. I keep asking myself if it is worth it...

The rear area of the coach has been the bath, but I plan on moving the bath more towards the middle and make the rear the bedroom. This leads me to my question: What do people do with the end cap in this case? Keep it and use it nearly as is? I have read some posts in which some owners have put strips of wood directly over the end cap for a beautiful wood interior, and that is appealing to me...

Any help will be greatly appreciated as I move in this direction. I definitely have some reservations about removing these end caps, even though I am pretty certain that it is the right thing to do...

Thanks,
David