Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-10-2018, 10:25 PM   #181
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Tank boxes redux

Hi David, Al, All,
David, thanks very much -- I am getting a clearer picture.

Al, Sorry if I am testing your patience. I should not have written "aluminum" and "tank box". Mine had enough galvanized sheet metal to know what it is.

What I am asking is whether the galvanized tank box is also covered by the belly pan. I am missing a huge chunk of the belly pan in that area, and wonder if the fairly thick and stiff aluminum could serve as both the tank box bottom and the belly pan in that area. Not having owned an Airstream before, I do not know what is supposed to be there.



Thanks,
David
__________________

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 08:50 AM   #182
NO HUMBLE OPINION
 
ALUMINUMINUM's Avatar

 
1968 20' Globetrotter
ANN ARBOR , THE GREAT LAKES
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 566
The .025 belly skin keeps the insulation clean and streamlines the underside of trailer. More importantly, it keeps the ratons out.


If you don't entirely cover the tank area underside with belly skin, you're inviting destructive, odoriferous passengers, their nests, caches and larders, urine, feces, diseases, cemeteries…


It's easiest if you rivet a frame-wide .025 or .032, 5052 or 3003 aluminum sheet onto the existing bellypan, then from there, onto where you choose to terminate it at or beyond the rear-most angle-iron area.



The bellypan doesn't have to be a beautiful, continuous front to rear, or side to side sheet. It can be a patchwork of old license plates and road signs, as long as it seals against intrusion.

There is no rear attachment-bumperbox flashing shown in this marginally accurate "expanded" sketch. There are differences between '68 & '70.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1968wastetank.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	280.4 KB
ID:	308452  
__________________

ALUMINUMINUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 09:53 AM   #183
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Ratons...

Hi Al,
I think we are much closer to being on the same track. I have a road sign that I plan to use as the bottom of the box and the belly pan simultaneously.

The underside of our Ambassador has the aluminum belly pan all the way to the area of the tank. It still exists on either side of where the tank box will reside, so my thinking is that I can tie the road sign into this whole business and provide not just a floor for the tank box but also seal off the entire area from intrusion.

I also LOVE the sketch !:-) Two things, however:

1. I feel really bad for that fish.
2. No matter how innocuous that raton looks, it still gives me the willies. There were two (probably) Kangaroo rats living in the ceiling when we first saw the Ambassador. One was poisoned, the other made the 120 mile journey to our house but jumped out almost immediately after being rattled and shaken for 3 hours. Our house is semi-rural, so perhaps he (or she) went across the street to the wilds there. Otherwise, our cat or three dogs would have likely found it by now.

I also plan to treat the very back end in an almost identical fashion to yours, in terms of the bumper box. There is no material there now, so I am planning on separating the rear of the trailer as you have (and, I think, has David from Colorado) and using steel mesh as the front wall, sides and bottom.


Thanks,
David
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 06:39 PM   #184
Rivet Master
 
dbj216's Avatar

 
1986 34' Limited
1975 27' Overlander
Conifer , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,061
Images: 1
"If you don't entirely cover the tank area underside with belly skin, you're inviting destructive, odoriferous passengers, their nests, caches and larders, urine, feces, diseases, cemeteriesÖ"

I don't think Aluminiuminum likes mice too much.

Being a lazy sort, I used a roll of .025 thick 5052 aluminum 48" wide. I'd measure and cut a piece about 65" long and work my way from the rear of the trailer to the front with 48" side to side belly aluminum. This was easiest for me as I don't have a good way of handling a BIG sheet of aluminum.

My Overlander belly pan will start at the bottom of the rear bumper and cover everything to the front of the body. I make sure I seal up all potential mousie entrance holes.

David
__________________
WBCCI #8607
VAC Region 11

Link to my 1975 Overlander Improvement Journal:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f17...ml#post2053792

Link to our 1976 Renovation Project:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f221...ct-202081.html
dbj216 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 07:07 PM   #185
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Tank boxes retrois

Hi David,
There is still a bit of confusion about what I am asking -- sorry if I have caused it!

I completely agree that the tank needs to be surrounded on 5 sides with metal (and styrofoam on the bottom and edges). I also agree that the entire bottom needs to be covered, to avoid unwanted visitors.

What I am asking is whether there needs to be TWO layers (1 of galvanized sheet metal or some other metal that is the bottom of the tank box, and a second (in my view repetitive) layer of belly pan aluminum. It seems to me that the aluminum road sign could serve as both the tank box bottom and the skin in that immediate area, and the remaining needed aluminum tied into that piece.

There could very well be a great reason to not do it this way -- I just don't know what it is offhand...


Thanks!
David
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 07:18 PM   #186
Rivet Master
 
rugjenkins's Avatar
 
1975 Argosy 28
Springville , Alabama
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 802
It may be easier to run a sheet of belly pan material over the tank box. It will be easier than welding belly pan attachments. Just span to cross member to cross member. It really up to you. I'd span it (belly pan) over the tank and put some sikaflex between the two to avoid accidental putting a screw into the tank.
__________________
Matt
rugjenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 07:54 PM   #187
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Bell E Pan

Hi Matt,
Cool idea. The belly pan is missing in the specific area of the tank and straight back from there.

In other words, there is aluminum that covers the areas outside of the frame where the tank box is. I need to provide cover for the space between the frame that includes the tank box and that 52" (or so) wide "stripe" that goes to the rear.

I was thinking that I could attach the aluminum construction sign to the frame (running sealant along there is a great idea) and have it travel to the rear support member (if that hangs low enough), then cover the last 6 inches or so with thinner aluminum, so that it more easily follows the contour of the rear of the coach.

I do not intend to to run the belly pan past the rear of the AS. I will look again tonight or tomorrow and snap a picture. There may still be aluminum on the rear of the AS that I forgot about...

Thanks,
David
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 09:00 PM   #188
Rivet Master
 
rugjenkins's Avatar
 
1975 Argosy 28
Springville , Alabama
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 802
Sounds like you have it figured out. Don't over think the concept. These are fully enclosed campers. The belly pan "wraps" the bottom. How you want to do it is personal preference. Your plan should work great. I did a similar construction on my tanks the same way. Honestly, your probably the only person who will ever see it, most people will see the shiny upper side and drool.
__________________
Matt
rugjenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 09:22 PM   #189
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Belle E. Panne 2

Hi Matt,
You are a gentleman and a scholar. Have a great evening!
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 12:35 AM   #190
3 Rivet Member
 
1980 24' Caravelle
vallejo , California
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 210
hello Dave, when i redid my 64 overlander, i put a removable section under the tank. accsess to your tank less of a headache.doing the same on my 80 caravelle under my bathtube area. kurt
ke6gkv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 07:58 AM   #191
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Road signs R us

Hi Kurt,
Definitely. I was thinking that too -- attach the section of (in my case) road sign with screws, in case I need to get at the tank again.


Thanks,
David
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 12:24 PM   #192
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
What it is...

Hi All,
I finally took pictures to better explain my madcap theory... the first shows the non-existent bumper storage area (except for the lid, which survived). The second shows the rear of the AS from the inside. The belly pan is intact on the sides pretty much all the way back, but the entire area where the tank goes and to the back is gone...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	AS rear bumper no box.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	106.5 KB
ID:	308552   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rear of AS from inside.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	105.3 KB
ID:	308553  

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 04:16 PM   #193
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
But wait, there's more!

Hi All,
Some more frame and belly pan pics. In the frame pics (the first two), it is clear that when a PO hit something, the frame was slightly tweaked at the back. The tank support angle iron pieces have been removed, but the forward-most angle iron has a HUGE curve in it, and even the tank support tabs that are welded to the frame were bent... to me, it looks as if the angle iron tank box supports took the brunt of the collision, and when they bent upwards they bent the angle iron support tabs and pulled the frame inwards (more on the street side than the door side. Measurements bear out that the frame members are not the same distance apart anymore, getting closer to each other as you work your way back. Any advice about pushing the frame back apart will be welcomed -- even if the advice is to leave it and fill the gap.

Pay particular attention to the gap between the piece that is riveted to the frame member and the frame member itself. On the street side, it is over 1/4" and the rivets were ripped right out of the aluminum support piece.

The second set of pics is showing where the belly pan was destroyed/ripped (at the point where the tank box lives). These two pictures show the belly pan underneath that part of the frame... is the dried gunk on the frame a bead of sealant? Did the belly pan go ABOVE the lip on the bottom of the frame and BELOW the tabs for the tank support in that area? Inquiring minds would like to know...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	As Rear Frame door side.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	101.9 KB
ID:	308563   Click image for larger version

Name:	AS frame Street side.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	119.8 KB
ID:	308564  

Click image for larger version

Name:	AS belly pan transition door side.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	257.8 KB
ID:	308565   Click image for larger version

Name:	AS belly pan transition street side.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	207.5 KB
ID:	308566  

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 06:06 PM   #194
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
But Wait, There's even MORE

Hi All,
Today has been a post-fest. Now I am adding a few more pictures that relate to the frame.
The first picture shows what I plan to use to replace the corroded steel angled piece next to it. I am not 100% of the name, but it helps tie the rear of the shell to the U channel, floor and so on. Part of this had bucked rivets through the shell.

The second picture shows much heavier angle iron than what came out, in terms of the tank box supports. I bought the material from a local metal scrapyard, and grabbed an extra piece. The lighter weight angled steel is from the back of the road sign that I plan to use as I patch up the bottom. I am unsure if these will get used in this project or not -- probably not.

In other news, I am quite thrown off by what I found when I removed (mostly -- it is held on by on rivet) the sheet aluminum and door for the rear storage compartment. The rear body/frame support (upside down "U" channel?) is further back than I realized. I am sure it is for a very good reason, but it does make separating the body from that box a bit less elegant... I have to give this some more thought, as I know I want to eliminate the "flashing into the rear plywood" aspect of the original design...I guess one possible way to go would be to cut out that rear brace and move it towards the front enough to allow for a cleaner line for the sheet metal...thoughts?


Thanks,
David
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Replacement frame to Body angle.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	181.4 KB
ID:	308571   Click image for larger version

Name:	Angle iron and steel for tank box.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	176.3 KB
ID:	308572  

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2018, 07:15 PM   #195
Rivet Master
 
dbj216's Avatar

 
1986 34' Limited
1975 27' Overlander
Conifer , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,061
Images: 1
I think it comes down to "builder's choice". That's what I do on my Overlander.
You're going to mount a water tank that could weigh 250 pounds full. So how will you hold the tank up and not let it move around? Make a tank box that fits in the space and is supported by the frame members. The bottom of the tank box can be anything you choose, e.g. old road sign. It just has to support the weight and not let rodents in.

That angle iron is called the rear hold down plate. It attaches the rear of the body to the rear most crossmember. Airstream rightly used solid rivets bucked tight as they are the strongest. The front hold down plate likely has two rows of bucked rivets holding the front of the body solid. The rear has only one row.

These old trailers need lots of work to get right again. Doing it ourselves is part of the fun. We just got to dig in and make it work somehow. I didn't build a tank box. I didn't hinge it to the cross member. And I bought a bigger tank because I had the room. I sketched up some supports that were strong enough and still allowed room for a drain line from the new gray tank. I will use belly pan aluminum to cover the whole mess.

Colorado David
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1802 Waste Tank Black Installed 2 (Small).JPG
Views:	42
Size:	145.5 KB
ID:	308583  
__________________
WBCCI #8607
VAC Region 11

Link to my 1975 Overlander Improvement Journal:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f17...ml#post2053792

Link to our 1976 Renovation Project:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f221...ct-202081.html
dbj216 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2018, 03:47 PM   #196
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Rear body support not lined up

Hi All,
After closer inspection, I have realized that the lower rear shell area of the AS has actually moved/sagged relative to the frame.

The first picture is of the rear support member, which seems to be sticking out the rear of the AS. The second is taken from inside and show the holes through which the bolts go to secure the connection between the shell (upper body) and floor/frame. These holes are supposed to line up, but they are off by about 1/2 inch (they look closer because of the camera angle) ó about the distance that the rear support member sticks out the back in my previous picture...

Maybe I can separate the Stinky Slinky box after all!


Thanks,
David
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rear support, shell.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	119.1 KB
ID:	308632   Click image for larger version

Name:	Holes for AS rear support.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	60.7 KB
ID:	308633  

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2018, 06:46 PM   #197
Rivet Master
 
dbj216's Avatar

 
1986 34' Limited
1975 27' Overlander
Conifer , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,061
Images: 1
I don't think the body has shifted on your frame. That would take a rear end collision by a fully loaded dump truck.

Your first picture is telling. I see a "surgical scar" some call an "elephant ear" where a rear end separation and rear crossmember was likely repaired sometime in the history of your trailer. This is the external approach instead of taking the bath out of the trailer to gain access. This helps explain why your rear cross member looks different. And the repair shop may have used a structural steel member that was bigger than the original. It does create the infamous "shelf" where rainwater will run off the body and can run into the subfloor. You gotta seal this joint up good. I would take the molding off first.

The second photo showing misalignment of the C channel hole and the frame hole doesn't surprise. It looks like the C channel hole was enlarged at some point. I don't think it is an indicator of any body shift. Use a big washer when you put it back together.

Here is a photo of my 75 Overlander with the original rear crossmember. It does not stick out behind the body.

Colorado David
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1710 Frame Rust Rear Cross Member 1 (Small).JPG
Views:	43
Size:	156.8 KB
ID:	308660  
__________________
WBCCI #8607
VAC Region 11

Link to my 1975 Overlander Improvement Journal:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f17...ml#post2053792

Link to our 1976 Renovation Project:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f221...ct-202081.html
dbj216 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2018, 08:23 PM   #198
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Maybe, maybe not?

Hi David,
I may not have been as clear as I should've been in my earlier post. The very back of the shell, C-channels, etc. are not lined up with the support member. I have looked as closely as I can, and see no evidence of an old support member that was cut out.

The rear shell, C-channel, etc. can be fairly easily pushed slightly to the rear, once again lining up the holes. To me, they got messed up as everything was rotting away and the whole thing was shaking. They certainly don't look like cleanly drilled holes...


I see what you mean about the Elephant Ears. I need to read up on it some more, but I thought it referred to a method of repairing the rear floor without removing the bath. Maybe this was done a long time ago, but the original elevator bolts were still in the board that I removed, and that board had not been spliced.

Color me confused!


Thanks,
David
2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2018, 06:13 PM   #199
Rivet Master
 
dbj216's Avatar

 
1986 34' Limited
1975 27' Overlander
Conifer , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,061
Images: 1
Okay, I'm good at confusing fellow Forum members. The surgical scar lead me down the wrong path. It's hard to draw conclusions without seeing and touching the trailer.

The external method of repairing rear end separation is well explained by Andy af Inland RV. I found his post by searching "rear end separation repair". Maybe even Jackson Center does it that way. It is certainly faster. I don't know any other reason someone would cut into the rear body that way, but maybe there is.

Onward and upward...

Colorado David
__________________
WBCCI #8607
VAC Region 11

Link to my 1975 Overlander Improvement Journal:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f17...ml#post2053792

Link to our 1976 Renovation Project:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f221...ct-202081.html
dbj216 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2018, 10:18 AM   #200
4 Rivet Member
 
1970 29' Ambassador
Beautiful Santa Rosa , California
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 374
Elephant Ears

Hi David,
Thanks for your post. I read a bit about the elephant ears repair approach, and it seems obvious (as you pointed out) that it was done on this AS. There were enough holes/bolts through the U channel to weigh down the back end of this AS by themselves. I didn't realize until you brought it up that they might have been added sometime after the original construction.

I thought the repair was a method for replacing part of the floor, but instead discovered (for me, anyway) that it was all about additional hardware securing what was left of the original floor -- clearly a losing battle in the (even slightly) longer term. Below is a picture of the floor that came out (two cuts were made to facilitate its removal), included as visual proof of the ultimate result of not taking on the more involved solution ...

I am still pretty sure that the shell has "curled inward" (I don't know how else to describe it) at the point where the bottom of the shell meets the frame support. The whole thing (U channel included) can be pushed outward by hand, which then lines up those 15 million holes. I think my approach is going to be to do that re-alignment and also minimize the number of cuts/holes in the plywood (the original had some shoe box-sized holes cut here and there) as I put it back together, in the hopes of helping maintain its -- (using some of my favorite words ) Structural Integrity. That, along with sealing the plywood the best I can and trying to eliminate any anti-flashing situations that sped the demise of the first sheet o' plywood.


Thanks,
David


Thanks,
David
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rear plywood removed.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	144.4 KB
ID:	308769  
__________________

2002sheds is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another Reality Check! RLS Hitches, Couplers & Balls 24 09-23-2009 11:38 PM
Bathroom ABS repair-Reality check SilverHoot Upholstery, Blinds, Walls & Interior Finishes 1 07-21-2009 10:02 PM
POR15 reality check truckasaurus Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 20 06-07-2009 08:19 AM
Check , Check and Re-Check a new refer saga. thenewkid64 Refrigerators 13 06-24-2002 09:54 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.