1958 Cruiser (two door) Frame-off Restoration

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

Grrrr... because of the location of the shower, I don't think I can put my fresh water tank between the two axles. I think I'm going to have to put it starting just over the front axle, forward.

If you put your fresh tank just forward of the front axle, you might be able to put the grey tank between the axles (making your locations opposite of ours), but plumbing the dump valve might be a little tricky, but not undoable, to get it just rearward of the rear axle. You black tank will pretty much have to go below the toilet, wherever that is located.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

My bottom of my fresh tank is well below the belly pan level (I'd guess it is 4-5 inches lower). That makes the tank perhaps 10-12 inches deep as it goes up to the bottom of the floor.

One other thing to note is that these newer trailers have torsion axles, while yours would not (unless you intend to change that). I'm not sure how this would impact tank fitment, if any.

Okay, now I'm really curious... what "protects" the bottom of the fresh water tank if it sticks down that far? Actually, it's probably tougher than that foil/belly skin, but does the belly skin cover the tank? That's about how far down the floor furnace used to jut, so I suppose it would be okay.

My frame rails are about 4.25" tall. That would mean a tank spanning the width of the rails, 8" deep wuold only have to be about 28" long to accomodate approx 54 gallons.

This is good news because my shower pan is on the floor, just inside of the wheel well, curbside. Moving rearward, almost immediately is the toilet. If I can stick the gray water tank just under the shower, then the sinks could drain down through the "double wall" where the shower pipes are and drop directly into the gray water tank. Cool. That would even leave me enough room to put the black tank under the floor. Previously I was thinking about building a "pedastel" for the toilet to sit on. Running pipes for the dump valve assembly should be pretty easy then.

I've been playing with the idea of switching to torsion axles, but only if my current leaf spring set up can't handle the added weight of the water tanks. I'm not sure what the rated capacity is on them just now. If anyone knows... please share!

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

Okay, now I'm really curious... what "protects" the bottom of the fresh water tank if it sticks down that far? Actually, it's probably tougher than that foil/belly skin, but does the belly skin cover the tank?

The water tank is protected by a rectangular metal box that bolts to the frame using (I'd estimate) 30-40 good size bolts. I think the Box is galvanized steel of a thickness much greater than the bellypan. It as to be, because it is actually this box that holds the plastic water tank in place, so it must support the weight of the tank plus about 50 gallons of water. There is just a layer of styrofaom between the box and tank for insulation purposes, with a few channels in the tank/foam for furnace air to circulate to keep the tank from freezing in cold temps. I think the styrofoam is perhaps 1" thick.

[ankornuta]

Great info, thanks!! I wish I had more later-model airstreams handy to inspect these types of things.

I think as long as I've got the whole thing torn apart, I may build in winter-proofing for my water system. Which actually raises an interesting idea... I could heat the floor using an under-tile type system. The same heating elements cuold be used for the piping, though I think I would want to have a low-draw system option for heating the piping and water tanks only...

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

This is good news because my shower pan is on the floor, just inside of the wheel well, curbside. Moving rearward, almost immediately is the toilet. If I can stick the gray water tank just under the shower, then the sinks could drain down through the "double wall" where the shower pipes are and drop directly into the gray water tank.

Just reread this message. I don't think you can have the gray tank immediately below the shower drain. I think you still want to plumb a trap into that drain to keep gray tank odors for invading the trailer.

This is not an issue for the toilet and black tank because of the dump valve.

[ankornuta]

Water System
Thank you to 66Overlander for keeping me from making a horrible mistake and draining my shower right into the gray water tank without a trap! As a result of that reminder, I went back to the drawing board on my water system. I think I have a better design now, but I am somewhat concerned about the new location of my fresh water tank; ahead of the front axle. I'm going to need to do some calculations to see how that is going to affect my tongue weight, but I think it just might be okay.

So now, moving from front to back, the water system will consist of:
- 56 gallon fresh water tank
- 12 v pump
- Drain for the sinks
- Drain for the shower
- 27 gallon gray water tank
- 14.6 gallon black water tank
- Bladex dump valve assembly

I think I'm going to start the welding this weekend, to accomodate this weight (as long as I finish all the wire-brushing first). I have also made the decision to "freeze-proof" the water system using a filament to generate heat around the pipes and tanks. It has to be 12v and have a low draw, though I haven't found the exact product I want to use yet. I figure I might as well add something like this as long as I have the whole thing taken apart.

I think I'm also going to replace the original water heater with a model that can run off of propane, but I haven't done much research into this just yet as I've been focusing on items below the floor for now.

Electrical System
I'm going to replace all of the wiring. Again, this is one of those "might as wells" since I've got it all taken apart. Of course, this task can be done w/ the shell back in place and the A/C running

I'm going to switch some of the original two-prong outlets out with GFI outlets, probably just in the kitchen and bath where appliances would be used and/or lots of water present. I think I might replace all of the other two-prong outlets with grounded three-prong outlets.

My trailer originally had two wiring systems; 12 volt and 120. I'm going to keep it this way. However, I am going to move the battery location from the tongue to where the old water tanks used to be, up front. I'm going to also use a bank of three RV/Marine batteries and set up a good charging system. To the 12 volt system I am adding a water pump and the heating for the water system.

I'm going to replace the refrigerator with a two-way model also, but I think we'll still camp with a generator in warm weather so we can run the A/C which will almost definitely be 120v only.

Insulation
I've found out that the new Airstreams use a "foil" type insulation. I think that I will most likely go with something like Radiant Barrier's TempShield double-bubble product. This provides a raidant barrier in addition to a conductive/convective barrier. They have a similar product that can be used to wrap the pipes as well. I think I'll use this product in the walls, as well as under the floor, between the frame rails. This product also serves to sound-proof and functions as a vapor barrier.

However, I still really like the idea of filling the open spaces in the belly with solid foam. Not just for insulation purposes, but also because of the protection this offers against the belly becoming a home for all manner of unwelcome guests once again (and filling up with dirt). So I think I'll use the foil/bubble insulation as well as foam in the belly.

I want to also spray on or apply some type of rubber coating on the frame members (bulkheads) that the interior skin attaches to. This is to attempt to stop outside temperatures from conducting into the interior.

A/C and Heating
I'm pretty sure that I'll be going with the under-bed 120v A/C system. I'm still not certain if I'm going to take apart a room air conditioner to fit it under my bed, or if I'm going to use one of my friends wine-cellar type units (it depends on what type of price he can give me!). I will probably end up running a duct up the wall so that the cool air can be blown down from the ceiling to the front of the trailer.

For heating, I've also been toying with the idea of radiant-under-the-floor heating. I've been in a few hotel bathrooms that had it and it's just awesome! It really feels great under the tile, but I have a lot of questions regarding safety in a trailer with linoleum tiles, etc. I've only ever seen it done on concrete floors with porcelain/granite/marble tiles. I'm not a big fan of heaters unless it's REALLY cold outside, so I'll probably just pick up a Coleman Powercat or something like that for in the bathroom or bedroom if it's extra cold. I don't think I'm going to have a place to put the in-floor furnace oddity back in. If I can find space for it though, I'll definitely keep it, in part because it's pretty uncommon. I need to take some measurements to see if its depth (it sticks down about 10" below the floor) will work up in front.

[66Overlander]

Ya know, I think I'm starting to live vicariously thru the restoration of your two door Overlander. It is such a cool trailer and I really like the later 50's models. That plus I am not yet up to such a task myself. I know a lot of people got behind Ewe's "A 63 for me!" thread, but I never started and it's too long to go there now (well maybe it'll be a good read if/when I start something similar). Keep up the good work!

[fastrob]

I wish I was in Az right now it is 17 degrees F here now. Brrrrrrr.

The reply is a question about your water tank size. Why would you have a larger water tank than capacity to store it as waste?
Usually one can pick up water where a dump is made.
Is the desert use the reason you did it this way?
At about 8 lbs per gal, that would be a lot of weight sloshing around.

Thanks for your posts, you help others a lot.

R

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by fastrob

I wish I was in Az right now it is 17 degrees F here now. Brrrrrrr.

The reply is a question about your water tank size. Why would you have a larger water tank than capacity to store it as waste?
Usually one can pick up water where a dump is made.
Is the desert use the reason you did it this way?
At about 8 lbs per gal, that would be a lot of weight sloshing around.

Thanks for your posts, you help others a lot.

R

Hahaha... it's 54 here right now (at night) and you should see the way people bundle up. You can always tell who's from here (jackets, scarves) and who's visiting (shorts, t-shirts) this time of year.

For me the fresh water tank size is most important. I guess living in the desert has something to do with wanting to be sure to always have plenty of water..

In regards to the tank sizes though, some of the fresh water will go for drinking and cooking and while not all of it will fit in the waste tank, the way I see it is the gray tank is primarily for "in-transit" use. When camping at a park, obviously you can dump as needed. When camping out in the "wild", a hole can be dug to accomodate gray waste water in many places, so long as you use appropriate types of soap and so on. It seems to be pretty common practice (like on the new Airstreams, for example) to make the gray water tank about 3/5 the size of the fresh tank.

It really is a lot of weight; over 400 pounds for just the fresh water. From my experiences with aquariums I've learned just how heavy water is (how surprisingly heavy) and also a little bit about supporting that weight. I am going to have to reinforce the frame to support the weight.
Uwe has some very good information on what he did to this effect in his thread.

You mention the "sloshing" and that's something I've been thinking about. I wonder if anybody installs baffles in their fresh and gray tanks in order to cut down on this....

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

Ya know, I think I'm starting to live vicariously thru the restoration of your two door Overlander. It is such a cool trailer and I really like the later 50's models. That plus I am not yet up to such a task myself. I know a lot of people got behind Ewe's "A 63 for me!" thread, but I never started and it's too long to go there now (well maybe it'll be a good read if/when I start something similar). Keep up the good work!

Cool Thanks for the kind words! You gave me some really great info, too!

[ankornuta]

I'm starting to think more and more that I'd really like to add some under-floor heating, "radiant floor heating". I found a product made by a company called "Sun Touch" today, and they sell it at Lowe's. It's very simple and relatively inexpesive, basically just heating coils in a big mat that can be placed under tiles http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...30R&lpage=none

I think i could place it right on top of the wood, then cover it in some kind of sealant and adhere my tile to that, but I'm concerned about making my linoleum "lumpy".

I guess I still have a few weeks to make a decision on this...

[fastrob]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

You mention the "sloshing" and that's something I've been thinking about. I wonder if anybody installs baffles in their fresh and gray tanks in order to cut down on this....

My fresh tank has a tunnel/channel going through it for the hot air ducting from the heater and acts as a baffle to dampen sloshing. I hope the black tank sloshes or a mountain of poop can build up. I guess the gray matters less.
Other opinions?

R

[ankornuta]

Okay, one last link...

Speaking of tiles, "Marmoleum" seems to come closest to the looks of the Arnstrong "Straight grain excelon" (made with real asbestos!) that they originally put in these trailers in the '50s. I like the "tango" style. I think that will look best w/ my trailer's colors: http://www.themarmoleumstore.com/fra...u_id=872&ssm=1

[flyfshr]

Hey Andy ~

I have a Marmoleum sample book if you're ever interested in looking at the actual product's colors. Just let me know. I'm thinking of using the same thing once I repair the entry area floor. Can't stand it any longer. Must be your inspiration. Thanks alot. Great resto thread, keep at it. You're making fantastic progress.

Brad
FF

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by flyfshr

Hey Andy ~

I have a Marmoleum sample book if you're ever interested in looking at the actual product's colors. Just let me know. I'm thinking of using the same thing once I repair the entry area floor. Can't stand it any longer. Must be your inspiration. Thanks alot. Great resto thread, keep at it. You're making fantastic progress.

Brad
FF

That would be pretty cool, actually. I've been meaning to get over to "Floor 1" on Central and Roosevelt since they are a Marmoleum dealer. However, they seem to be open only "regular" business hours and I'm always at the office, chained to my desk, during those hours.

Thanks for the positive words! Progress got slowed this weekend because family was in town and we had to do some entertaining. That just means I'll have to work twice as hard this weeked

[Paul Mayeux]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

Okay, one last link...

Speaking of tiles, "Marmoleum" seems to come closest to the looks of the Arnstrong "Straight grain excelon" (made with real asbestos!) that they originally put in these trailers in the '50s. I like the "tango" style. I think that will look best w/ my trailer's colors: http://www.themarmoleumstore.com/fra...u_id=872&ssm=1

I can vouch for the Tango. That's what we purchased for the floor of the Cruiser. It is really sharp looking, it goes with what we're planning to do and it still retains that vintage look. We used "Coffee" Marmoleum in our Caravel and love it. I bought the "Domino" for the counter tops.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by 62 Overlander

I can vouch for the Tango. That's what we purchased for the floor of the Cruiser. It is really sharp looking, it goes with what we're planning to do and it still retains that vintage look. We used "Coffee" Marmoleum in our Caravel and love it. I bought the "Domino" for the counter tops.

Oh cool! Do you have any pictures of the tango flooring?

[ankornuta]

I continued my work this weekend and got the last of the old flooring off of the frame. I bought a new angle grinder (what an amazing tool!) at Harbor Freight and made short work of the bolts left in the frame as well as rusted cross members.

I also picked up a wire cup brush and a wire wheel for the angle grinder and those did a great job of cleaning up the metal. It's ready to be treated now with Eastwood silver-color rust encapsulator, but I'm having a hell of a time finding that product locally. I guess I'm just going to have to order it online.

I decided to remove any additional cross members that would be in the way of the new water tanks that I'm going to be adding. In order to determine which would have to be moved, and to test my fittings, I built 1:1 scale models of the water tanks out of cardboard. I'm glad I did this because I actually found that the bolts holding the leaf springs to their mounts get in the way of the gray water tank. The gray tank won't fit where I wanted to put it and I'm going to have to select a different size tank. I've included a photo of my water storage plan.

[Paul Mayeux]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

Oh cool! Do you have any pictures of the tango flooring?

I will this week. I'm going to put the flooring down prior to dropping the shell in place. I'll get some pics once that is done. The tango material looks great. The little flecks of turquoise will set off some of the colors we're using. Somewhere in the archives of this forum, someone used a red marmoleum and I think it might have been tango. They did have a picture and it looked great. You might do a search on marmoleum. It was at least a year and 1/2 back.

[66Overlander]

One more consideration for your gray and black tanks is that they need a vent that goes out thru the roof of the trailer somewhere. I couldn't tell from your sketch if you had included provisions for them or not.