1958 Cruiser (two door) Frame-off Restoration

[59toaster]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

I took Richard's (Azflycaster) advice and contacted Randy at www.bestconverter.com. He was EXTREMELY helpful. I basically know nothing about how to wire a trailer and he helped me out quite a bit.

It looks like I'm going to go with:
- WFCO 8900 series 55amp converter / charger with power distribution center. This will hold my AC breakers and DC Fuse panel. I believe I need one main 30 amp breaker and do I also need one 30 amp breaker for the Air Conditioner?

- WFCO 600 watt true sine inverter

- Class T fuse block

- Two Lifeline AGM GPL-4C 6 Volt, 220 Ampere Hour Deep Cycle batteries, wired to produce 12 volts. These weigh almost 70 pounds each, though... so I'm wondering if I'm going to need to reinforce the tongue of the trailer, and how to do that.

- TriMetric battery monitor

- Some type of mechanical Battery disconnect

Also... in my trailer, all of the 110V AC wiring today is just copper wire with insulation. However, I know that in construction, Romex is generally used. Is there a reason not to use Romex when replacing the 110V AC wiring in the trailer?

My 59 going to be close to what you have. It had one breaker for all the 110v. Course back then the big draw would be a Toaster not a Microwave. It wasn't even prewired for a A/C.

When I rewired mine I took ALL the outlets off the existing 110v circuit and only left the over head lighting on it. All the outlets were T in in the ceilings at the light fixtures so it was easy to just cut that leg out and I was able to use the cut off legs to pull new wires down to the outlets. I used 12 gage Romex.

"Overkill" is my middle name. When I rewired I made a dedicated line to the Reefer and a Dedicated line to where a A/C will eventually end up. A dedicated line to where the charger and D/C distribution will be under the front Gaucho. Then I ran a a Leg for outlets to each side of the coach. I ran it all 12 gage so that I could handle a Microwave either side as well a space heaters or any other high draw appliance.

The D/C I again ran a Dedicated to where the reefer will be as well as Forward lights, Rear lights, power for futureTV antenna and 12v plug, Heater blower, stereo, galley 12v receptacle. I also ran an 8gage spare from front where the distribution panel will be to to the rear under bed storage area for any future needs or to run a small inverter if I ever feel I want one.

Don't for get to take entertainment into consideration. I prewired for 4 speakers with the intent to mount a car stereo in the side of the wardrobe. That happens to be right next to where we will put a TV so it will be no big deal to get that the speaker wires if we get fancy with the TV. I also ran a Coax around to the storage compartment for when Cable TV is available at the campground.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by flyfshr

Andy ~

Although the factory used wire nuts and electrical tape, you shouldn't if it's done right unless it's in a junction box. Do you have your electrical panel picked out yet or are you planning on using the original to the trailer? If you need some assistance with setting this up in your trailer, give me a ring. We can set up a diagram that will be easy to follow.

Now, it goes without saying, if I help on this, you need to keep this trailer.

Brad
FF

Well, I'm not going to make any promises about whether or not I'm keeping the trailer because one never knows what curveballs one may encounter in ones life... Now that I'm done waxing philosophical, it's looking like I'll be keeping the trailer

I'm going to be getting a WFCO 8900 series 55amp converter / charger with power distribution center. This will hold my AC breakers and DC Fuse panel. I don't know how many AC breakers it will hold though. Based on what I'm hearing (thanks to everyone for their great feedback!), I think I'll need the following for breakers for AC power:

1. 30 Amp main
2. 20 Amp for refrigerator
3. 20 Amp for A/C
4. 20 Amp for left trailer side
5. 20 Amp for right trailer side
6. Should I run the inverter on it's own breaker? Does that make any sense?

I'll be using 12 gauge Romex for all this wiring (good advice 59toaster!) I don't think I'll keep a microwave in the trailer... but just in case it'll be good to have the refrigerator and trailer sides on different breakers with a heavier wire. I plan to use grounded GFCI outlets for all of the 110V outlets. You never know what might get wet when camping...

For the 12 volt, I'll probably do something similar to what 59Toaster is talking about as well, and I did forget to take an entertainment system into consideration actually! I'll need to run wiring for the speakers, switches to turn zones on and off, etc. I'll also need coax for the antenna and possible campground cable.

Brad, chances are I'll be calling you tonight! I think I'm finally starting to wrap my brain around this wiring thing, but I know that means I know a lot less than I think I do

[wkerfoot]

Andy,

Are you going to put an outlet outside. I find the one on our Safari very useful for the obligatory awning lights and a radio. It also works for the optional margarita blender when the weather is too nice to mix inside.

Bill

[ankornuta]

I definitely want get a lot of the wiring done this weekend (yay four day weekend!) but I still have a question I'm hoping some of you seasoned electrical veterans can help me out with...

My overhead lights have both 110v and 12v outlets. Can I just run 12v power to the 110v outlet and use 12v bulbs in them?

I'll post a picture of it later, but if I have to replace it, it's going to be tough. The part that the bulbs screw into is the same part that the lens attaches to.

Also... I need to find some 12 volt ballasts for the flourescent light fixtures in the trailer. My trailer has five flourescent light fixtures, all 110v currently. I really like the look of them.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Andy,

Are you going to put an outlet outside. I find the one on our Safari very useful for the obligatory awning lights and a radio. It also works for the optional margarita blender when the weather is too nice to mix inside.

Bill

Ahhh yes... outside is the best place for margarita blending I actually have two outlets outside of my trailer; someone replaced the original single outlet with a double.

[ankornuta]

Okay, so I want to get everything wired this weekend, I've asked loads of questions... I think I've finally got it. I'm putting my notes here so I don't lose them

110 volt system:
- Main panel with one 30 amp breaker connecting to the incoming shore power on street side, in the bathroom cabinet. Power runs from here to...
- WFCO 8900 power center with converter and breaker panel located under the refrigerator. Breakers include:
- 20 amp for Air Conditioner
- 20 amp for Refrigerator
- 20 amp for trailer curb side, outside and ceiling lights
- 20 amp for trailer street side (incl kitchen)
- The only 110v lights will be the three original overhead lights which also have 12v outlets (two 110v outlets and one 12v outlet in each)
- All outlets are grounded GFCI outlets in plastic boxes
- All wiring is 3 wire 12 gauge Romex
- All splits/splices in plastic junction boxes
- Pure sine 600W inverter w/ class 110 amp class t fuse block located w/in 18" of battery

12 Volt
- 2 x 6 Volt, 220 amp hour batteries, providing 440 amp hours!
- Mechanical kill switch for batteries
- 12 position DC fuseblock in WFCO 8900 power center, powering:
- 5 flourescent lights (two fuses: one fuse for front and curb, one fuse for rear and street)
- 3 overhead lights (one fuse for all)
- 2 front sconce lights (one fuse)
- 2 rear sconce lights (one fuse)
- water pump (one fuse)
- fantastic fan in bedroom (one fuse)
- 2 outside lights, one at each door (one fuse for both)
- stereo, amplifier and speakers (one fuse)
- bathroom overhead light and under cabinet lights (one fuse)
- 12 volt (cig lighter) outlet in over-fridge electronics cabinet (one fuse)
- 14 gauge wire

Enterntainment and Internet
- Car stereo and amplifier running on 12 volt in the electronics compartment, above the refrigerator
- 2.4 GHz 15dBi omnidirectional roof-mount antenna mast for 802.11x receipt and broadcast, connecting to Airport base station which also feeds into Aux jack on stereo for wirelessly streaming music from any laptop w/ iTunes
- Input for coax by shore power, converts to HDMI and feeds to front living area and rear bedroom area, with additional inputs possible in electronics compartment above fridge (for laptop video, DVD player, etc)
- Original (old school) antenna, coax feed into electronics compartment above refrigerator, into output box.
- Wiring for 4 speakers in the living area, 2 speakers in the bedroom area, 2 jacks for speakers near the outside outlet, zone controller in the electronics compartment to turn off front, back or outside.

[A-Merry-Can]

crikeys man! i don't think my house has that many circuits! i need to get mine cracking once the interior skins are polished up.

jp

[till]

Wholy smokes!! That is one long list of curcuits.

I would recomend keeping it simple. I was going downthe same road when I had a reality check with the inside walls. I did not want to run that much wire through the walls. Just more to go wrong down the line. The coach has worked for 39+ years with three 110 and three 12 volt curcuits.

Just my two cents

[wkerfoot]

Andy,

I am not sure that you need a separate circuit for the refrigerator. Check the amp draw for yours. Is it a gas/electric absorption type or a household compressor driven. I don't think the absorption type draw as much as the compressor type. I have never had a problem with popping circuit breakers on the Safari and we only have three circuits with the microwave and refigerator on the same circuit.

Bill

[Safari Tim]

Wiring is just what I have been doing the last couple of days. Wires everywhere. But I have nothing close to what you are proposing

I wish I could think that far ahead.

Here is part of my wiring mess from today. You don't want to see the other ends of these wires!

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Andy,

I am not sure that you need a separate circuit for the refrigerator. Check the amp draw for yours. Is it a gas/electric absorption type or a household compressor driven. I don't think the absorption type draw as much as the compressor type. I have never had a problem with popping circuit breakers on the Safari and we only have three circuits with the microwave and refigerator on the same circuit.

Bill

You're probably right, but you never know what the future holds in store and since I basically have just an aluminum shell right now, it won't hurt to overdo it a little. The refrigerator that I'm looking at is a dometic, and I have somewhere in my notes that it will draw 14.1 amps.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by Safari Tim

Wiring is just what I have been doing the last couple of days. Wires everywhere. But I have nothing close to what you are proposing

I wish I could think that far ahead.

Here is part of my wiring mess from today. You don't want to see the other ends of these wires!

Whoa... I can only imagine what the other end looks like. I've got ALL of the interior skins off right now, so it should be easier for me to do my wiring than what you're having to deal with right now.

[ankornuta]

Originally Posted by till

Wholy smokes!! That is one long list of curcuits.

I would recomend keeping it simple. I was going downthe same road when I had a reality check with the inside walls. I did not want to run that much wire through the walls. Just more to go wrong down the line. The coach has worked for 39+ years with three 110 and three 12 volt curcuits.

Just my two cents

Hahaha.. my trailer's electrical system was working when I took it apart and it had ONE 110v circuit and one 12 volt circuit. Kinda scary, actually....

While I agree that more isn't always better, I think I can keep it all straight. I just hope I'm not having that 16 year old drive syndrome where I think I know what I'm doing... before putting the interior skins back on I will have a professional electrician check it out all out.

[LI Pets]

I got a WFCO 8900 series 55amp converter power center from Randy also.

I removed the circuit box located in the wardrobe area which was about in the center of the trailer and installed a juction box in its place to extend all 4 120V circuits forward then under the fridg floor backup thru the floor 7' foward under the sofa.

I put the WFCO at this location it is set about 8 back from the front of the trailier.

THen I had extend all the 12V wires back to the WFCO about 8'.

Now the power center in in the "Center" under the L shaped sofa.

THis would be a lot easier to understand with a pic

I'm also adding two 6V relocated off the tongue to a vented box under the sofa about 5' from the front.
This was done to lower the tongue weight and add two new 40G LP tanks in place of the 30's.

Adding the second battery doesn't add that much weight the old univolt was 45Lbs, 6lbs univolt cover box, vent screen & fuse panel.

This 4 day weekend is jam packed with a punch list to finish all the electric and a whole bunch of framing on the sofa and rear queen.

Am I having fun yet?

[ankornuta]

Bob, your description actually makes perfect sense... I myself have thought about putting the power center up front so that running the circuits down either side could be done without a junction box, except where the wires go up to the cieling lights.

Speaking of wires... I just got back from Home Depot. I bought my 12/3 Romex, 14 gauge wire and some shallow gang boxes (and other stuff). Anyhow, like I said, I'm a totally newbie at this, so I have a (proabably stupid) question; why are there four wires in three wire Romex?

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

Bob, your description actually makes perfect sense... I myself have thought about putting the power center up front so that running the circuits down either side could be done without a junction box, except where the wires go up to the cieling lights.

Speaking of wires... I just got back from Home Depot. I bought my 12/3 Romex, 14 gauge wire and some shallow gang boxes (and other stuff). Anyhow, like I said, I'm a totally newbie at this, so I have a (proabably stupid) question; why are there four wires in three wire Romex?

Andy,

Because you purchased 12/3 with ground and not 12/2 with ground. The wire you purchased has black, red, white and bare copper, right? You can run two hot wires, black and red, with the one neutral, white. This is used when you need two circuits at the same location or to run a 220V circuit. Since you are running different circuits to different locations, you need 12/2 with ground, black, white and bare copper. The bare copper is your ground.

Anybody disagree, I am not an electrician.

Bill

[Safari Tim]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

The refrigerator that I'm looking at is a dometic, and I have somewhere in my notes that it will draw 14.1 amps.

Wow, what fridge is that one? I hope they don't all use that much. I just ran one 15amp circuit for the WFCO charger and the fridge today. I was not counting on the fridge using that much.

The WFCO at full load is 950w which is about 8 amps. That will leave about 5-6 amps for the fridge.

The dometic site is useless. I can't find any specs on the fridges there.

Andy,

Because you purchased 12/3 with ground and not 12/2 with ground. The wire you purchased has black, red, white and bare copper, right? You can run two hot wires, black and red, with the one neutral, white. This is used when you need two circuits at the same location or to run a 220V circuit. Since you are running different circuits to different locations, you need 12/2 with ground, black, white and bare copper. The bare copper is your ground.

Anybody disagree, I am not an electrician.

Bill

I'm not an electrician either, and I agree with most everything. The only thing I don't think the 12-3 is so you can run two circuits to the same location using the same neutral. It just does not sound right to me since both 110v circuits are using the neutral for a return, it would have to carry twice the current load. 12-3 is for running switched circuits for lights, or two and three way switches.

Of course I could be wrong and may spark a multipage thread about AC wiring and totally de-railing the whole restoration thread!

[ankornuta]

D'oh! Looks like you're right Tim, I found this on a DIY home-building website:

For example "12-2" first describes the thickness of the wire, being 12-gauge wire. The "2" says there are 2 service wires inside. That is a hot(black) wire and a neutral(white) wire. There is also a bare copper ground wire. I know that makes three wires in total, but the ground doesn't count. Why not? I don't know! We all just kind of go along with that one.

So, "12-3" says there is three wires in there. There is an extra hot(red) wire for three-way switches. I'll go over that too. See the pics. Most diagram-electrical-wiring circuits don't say Romex on the cables, don't worry about it.

Well, at least the 12/2 is less expensive. I'll see if Home Depot is open tomorrow so I can exchange my wire.

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by ankornuta

D'oh! Looks like you're right Tim, I found this on a DIY home-building website:

For example "12-2" first describes the thickness of the wire, being 12-gauge wire. The "2" says there are 2 service wires inside. That is a hot(black) wire and a neutral(white) wire. There is also a bare copper ground wire. I know that makes three wires in total, but the ground doesn't count. Why not? I don't know! We all just kind of go along with that one.

So, "12-3" says there is three wires in there. There is an extra hot(red) wire for three-way switches. I'll go over that too. See the pics. Most diagram-electrical-wiring circuits don't say Romex on the cables, don't worry about it.

Well, at least the 12/2 is less expensive. I'll see if Home Depot is open tomorrow so I can exchange my wire.

Andy,

It should say 12/3 or 12/2 w ground, at one time you could purchase 12/2 or 12/3 without ground and it was labeled just 12/2 or 12/3. I have not looked lately, but then you should use the grounded romex anyway. The only time I could possibly see using no ground is for a light fixture which doesn't have a ground. But why stock another type of romex, just don't use the ground. You may have noticed that each type of wire has a a different color outside, white, yellow, orange etc. This is to allow easy identification of the wire from a distance.

Bill

[scottanlily]

Boy oh boy you guys ,don't give all that info then say your not an electrician.
I hope one of you guys know whats up on your wiring job there .i have all
original electrical system on my 60 trwnd, works just dandy ,Id be makin certain what the correct wire and installation ,grounds and all should be ,Im sure the jobs posted are going good but make sure of it. No room for a mistake here.

Scott