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Old 02-10-2008, 07:46 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millvalleyca
I just went outside to measure...
good info millva' and thanks for measuring these things !

i'm assuming the places you measured relate to the guides mentioned in post #9 and #23 ?

does the window open easily?

the red knobs are supposed to require 20lbs or less of force to open/turn ...

that's my recall from reading the 05 version of the nfpa standards.

but NO ONE should rely on my reading/interpretation of the nfpa standards,

the nfpa material covers a lot of issues and isn't overly technical, i'll be making reference to other issues...

as this thread moves forward.

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:10 PM   #62
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So far the things discussed could be applied to all RV's.

Emergency escape windows were not fantastic in any RV I've looked at.

Subpar wiring and wiring design are common also.

Niether of these shortcomings should ever leave the factory.

I'm still waiting to see what it is about the FB's themselves that is unsafe.
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:32 AM   #63
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Hits close to home

This thread really hits close to home. The photo you see is what is left of my 2007 Keystone Laredo 26RK. Fortunately (and unfortunately) only my dog perished in the fire. The rest of us were out deer hunting at the time of the fire.

The alarm was sounded at 7:35 and the fire department arrived at 8:15 to pretty much extinguish the resulting forest fire. The trailer was completely gone when they arrived. It burned so hard that the fiberglass, windows, and aluminum framing melted.

This model was a front bedroom floorplan with an escape window above the couch and next to the bed. When I bought the trailer I loved the layout. Then one day I was looking around and realized that the furnace, water heater, fridge and stove were all in the rear of the trailer by the door. Not a good idea in my opinion.

The cause of the fire is under investigation by Herndon & Associates. I'll provide an update when I get the report. After a lot of my own research I feel the cause was 1)Arson, 2)Fridge, or 3)Battery short, but we'll see.
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:46 AM   #64
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Tin,

The propane tanks and connections look intact, though the paint is burned off one of them. Were they turned off?

Sorry about your dog. Not a good way to go.

Gene

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Old 02-12-2008, 12:06 PM   #65
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Both tanks were open. The fire chief says that the propane probably burned off when the hoses melted off, but I've read that there are safety rings that shut off the gas flow when it starts venting too fast.

The tanks were covered with a plastic tank cover so the black may be the burnt plastic.

I'm really looking forward to getting the investigation report. It's hard to jump back into camping when you don't know how to prevent the same thing from happening again.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:11 PM   #66
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Better picture of tanks

Here's a better picture of the tanks. Also of note: there's about 6 inches of jack post that doesn't look scorched. Perhaps a jack short?
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:19 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinLoaf
This thread really hits close to home. The photo you see is what is left of my 2007 Keystone Laredo 26RK...
hi tinloaf and thanks for addiing to this thread...

i recall reading your account and seeing the vivid photos of this event here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f368...ent-38772.html

and the terrible feeling it rendered inside...

i also remember thinking at the time, how insignificant my fire was

and about all the 'what ifs' that could have resulted in a greater inferno...

or losing the pooch and other loved ones.

i hope u WILL post the investigation results and especially ANYTHING that might help us make our a/s units safer....

i also hope u can get back into rv'ing when the time is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goin camping
...applied to all RV's....in any RV I've looked at....Subpar...design are common also..I'm still waiting to see what... is unsafe.
i've tried to be careful in focusing on 'safety issues' as related to current a/s models, designs, construction and processes...

that's very different that using the term 'unsafe'.

also i fully realize there are safety issues with OTHER BRANDS or OLD UNITS, class a mohos, tents, and so on....

but hope we can keep the focus on recent models or current a/s offerings...

and suggestions on how to improve safety on these silver tubes going forward...

and not get into a "they're all this way" or "so what" or "get to the point" stringofuselessposts...

a/s claims to be a market leader, in a segment only they occupy and certainly at a price point no other trailer approaches.

so my intent is to remain on the issues as in post #1 and relevant strings from it.

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:29 PM   #68
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2Air,

I asked the question because you had advised someone to hold off on a FB purchase. I was curious if that style was by itself was better avoided. Seems as though your concerns are more product wide than model specific.
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:39 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goin camping
.... Seems as though your concerns are more product wide than model specific.
hi gc'

yes and no.

product wide is important to all of us, who own or are considering an a/s.

but i think there are model specific safety issues that are unique and troubling.

westie's photos show some of the 'after the fact/design' safety revisions...

and i tried to partially answer this distinction (and your question) in the first half of post #16,

and will address more issues related to in this specific floor plan/design subset as the thread grows...

while it may read inflammatory, i would avoid certain models/styles/floorplans IF buying now.

and at the absolute minimum, closely consider issues other than the inexpensive and hastily conceived interior makeovers...

or the seemingly hapless rearrangement of doors and windows and beds, that so much defines these 'new' models...

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:52 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
good info millva' and thanks for measuring these things !

i'm assuming the places you measured relate to the guides mentioned in post #9 and #23 ?

does the window open easily?

the red knobs are supposed to require 20lbs or less of force to open/turn ...

that's my recall from reading the 05 version of the nfpa standards.

but NO ONE should rely on my reading/interpretation of the nfpa standards,

the nfpa material covers a lot of issues and isn't overly technical, i'll be making reference to other issues...

as this thread moves forward.

cheers
2air'
The window opens easily....it's similar to the rest of the windows...two handles that stay open with the notch on the frame.
The knobs turn very easy...almost too easy...very loose.
I have a question regarding the screen.....looks like you release the screen by pulling the cord at the bottom of the window. I want to run a fire drill with the family this weekend when we're out camping. How do you replace the screen after you remove the cord? Do you simply try to push it back into the groove? Seems like this would be very difficult. Or would you just remove the screen completely so it's one less thing you have to worry about when in an actual "emergency"?
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millvalleyca
...Or would you just remove the screen completely so it's one less thing you have to worry about when in an actual "emergency"?
Dennis
hi millva'

yep i removed the screens for my exercise.

the red knobs (all 4) will need to removed and reinstalled for the drill (it's a simple hex driver)

then reinstall everything afterward.

besides the screws a/s uses to secure the screens are ALL way to long,

which makes cleaning the window channel a bloody mess,

so this gives u the chance to replace with shorter screws or snip off the ends on the originals!

cheers
2air'

i'd also position a step stool outside the window and consider using a pillow or blanket or jacket or cushion on the lower window rim...

have a great drill, make it fun an try it in the day light and after dark...

fire drills can be made like easter egg hunts or action/adventure episodes, and without fear of ACTION.

yes the piping loop is how the screen is removed quickly and it's a pia to get tight again...

just make sure the kids know IF they need to get out not to worry about being nice to the screen,

PULL IT KIDDOS!!!
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:29 PM   #72
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Hi, just for referrence, but the escape window on the rear of my Safari [BVD] is made for that purpose only, to escape. It is very easy to get to, open, and get out of because it is an escape window only, and there is no screen.

Note: The large window on the right is the escape hatch.

[Also parking / backing lessons given for a price. $$$$$]
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:50 PM   #73
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I would much rather pop out Robert's rear safety window than my stacked side smaller window used in the 2007s, and let's hope I haven't eaten too much chocolate by then to fit through the opening from my burning bed. But I won't be doing any fire escape simulations through the window and wounding myself to practice. In the end it would be a necessary choice of flame vs broken bones or skin or at least nasty bruises or possibly unconsciousness, but until then I can't see how suffering through a practice or trying to avoid injury now with items not available in a crisis situation will help me through an actual emergency later. Now if I were writing an expose on safety or trying out for a test dummy, maybe...
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested
I would much rather pop out Robert's rear safety window than my stacked side smaller window used in the 2007s, and let's hope I haven't eaten too much chocolate by then to fit through the opening from my burning bed. But I won't be doing any fire escape simulations through the window and wounding myself to practice. In the end it would be a necessary choice of flame vs broken bones or skin or at least nasty bruises or possibly unconsciousness, but until then I can't see how suffering through a practice or trying to avoid injury now with items not available in a crisis situation will help me through an actual emergency later. Now if I were writing an expose on safety or trying out for a test dummy, maybe...
Yep, Wait til the adrenaline is a pumpin and you'll fly out of that window.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:16 AM   #75
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first night after original post

Hi guys
Last night we spent our first night in our 2008 27'FB since 2air' started this thread.

We've tried to make decisions that would make our camping experience fun and as "safe as possible". We bought a new tv to pull our AS and had a HAHA installed. Bought two 5lb fire extinguishers to have "just in case".

I woke up at 4 am this morning to the VAROOOOM of our heater going on. The thermostat is set at 62 and the air outside is about 40. Every 5 min the heater went on for 5 min. and then after that the water heater kicked on.

I laid in bed wondering...... would it be safer to just shut the LP at bedtime?

I wonder if this is one of 2air's main safety concerns regarding the newer FB models? The fact that the 15 gallon LP tanks act as our "head board" and the LP pipes run right under the bed?

I'm thinking about using a plug in oil filled radiator type heater to heat the trailer.
We use them at home and at the office and have never had a problem with them....just set the thermostat and leave it alone. (it would be a lot less noisy)

Do you use your heater at night? Ever thought of tuning the LP off as a safety measure? (if it actually makes a difference)

Is it more "dangerous" to use a space heater?
Any thoughts?

Thanks
Dennis
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:30 AM   #76
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From what I've read, space heaters seem to work well in an Airstream unless you have freezing conditions.

One of the pluses is if you're at a campground, you're using the electricity you paid for instead of your propane.

The only drawbacks to me would be:
1. having to navigate around it in a confined space like the Airstream
2. not working without 120v
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:03 PM   #77
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Hi Dennis, we turn off the hotwater heater at night or run it on electric and sometimes the water pump (keeping toilet flushing from kicking on the pump and utilizing the last water ready in the pipes...works once anyway.) We set the thermostat down low and use electric mattress pads to warm the beds. It's a might chilly when we get up but it is nice to breathe the cooler air and doesn't seem so stuffy and dry. You could use a portable heater, just make sure you run the furnace when it is below freezing enough to warm your tanks. Have you a heat pump, do you like that constant fan noise for sleeping better than the furnace blasting at intervals? When it gets to freezing it will automatically make your furnace run to heat the tanks.
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:39 PM   #78
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We turn off the water heater at night and turn it on in the morning. It's so well insulated, it retains a lot of the heat overnight. If we're just going to use a little hot water in the morning, the water is probably hot enough to leave the heater off, but I don't think we've tried that yet. The water heater is almost under the bed (actually under some drawers next to the bed) on the 25' FB and listening to it during the night is neither pleasant nor does it feel safe.

Dennis, it sounds like your furnace may be short cycling if it's on for 5, off for 5, on…. My manual for the furnace and the thermostat does not tell me anything about an adjustable hi-lo switch. There is a limit switch which may be that switch, but it doesn't appear accessible. When you set the thermostat and the temp drops low enough, the burner lights, after a while, when the air is hot enough, the fan goes on. When the temp gets high enough at the thermostat, the burner goes off and the fan soon after. There are switches to control that.

At 40˚ outside, it seems to me a 5 minute interval is too short. When we were camped and it was 15˚ outside, it did seem the furnace cycled pretty quickly though not quite that fast. With lots windows and less insulation than at home, the Airstream loses heat pretty fast so it may cycle faster than a forced air system at home. So, unless you understand furnaces and feel confident looking for an adjustable switch, call the dealer—which you may have to do anyway.

We have usually turned off the water pump at night (exactly 2 nights so far) while boondocking because if there are any air bubbles in the system, the pump may go off for a few seconds in the middle of the night. These pumps are noisy, especially when sleeping. For the 3 am trip to the toilet, I get to turn on the pump and make noise anyway.

Enjoy the 27' FB—we really liked the floor plan, but wanted the shortest unit with a queen and I wasn't sure it was a good match with our truck. It was sure tempting though.

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Old 02-17-2008, 05:03 PM   #79
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Our water heater is a standing pilot type--it's brand new, but the less sophisticated model. The standing pilot keeps the water hot all night without kicking on.
In the grand scheme of things it probably wouldn't matter, but you could turn off one of the LP tanks before bed. A little less fuel for a fire, should one start, though I think one tank would be sufficient to create a stream-b-que.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:34 PM   #80
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Hi, I have, in another post, mentioned that I use an oil filled heater. It works great. I set the thermostat to 66 degrees [on my furnace] just in case the oil filled heater couldn't keep up. I set my heater to #4 out of 0-#6 and the watt switches to medium. [900 watts] No noise, no orange glow, and no air depletion. My water heater only kicks on about twice during the night, so I leave it on. When I don't have hook ups, I only turn on the water pump as needed, then turn it off. I do not turn my gas off at home and I don't see the need to turn it off in my trailer while I'm camping.
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