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Old 12-29-2006, 08:36 PM   #41
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I read the post about cause, etc. On the other thread about this accident, I think I posted what my State Farm Agent told me when I asked what if I didn't have the proper tow gear and got into a wreck of any type or severity.

His words, not mine:

"We'd still pay it, but after that, we'd drop you or increase your rates dramatically".

Please let us know how this progresses, a number of us have State Farm for our Airstreams too.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:53 PM   #42
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I've had State Farm since 1973 and have been pleased with the agent we had in Nashville. We moved in December 1986 and went with a local State Farm agent there. We have had one Astrovan totalled by an uninsured motorist. State Farm took care of it after several discussions with the adjuster (noted below). A truck rear ended my daughter's Dodge Stealth and the truck owner's insurance gave us more than we thought it was worth. Her '98 Honda Accord was hit head on by a Saturn and it was declared NO Fault in a turning lane. State Farm took care of us. A truck, borrowed by an uninsured motorist, rear ended the vehicle later, totalled it and the truck owner's insurance would not give us what we thought the car was worth. We paid the deductible and State Farm sued the truck owner's insurance company. We received our deductible back. My daughter was hit again in her 2000 Honda, this time from the front, by an uninsured motorist in Myrtle Beach, S.C. and the drunk 17 yr. old driver tried to drive away. A motorist grabbed the steering wheel to prevent him from fleeing. He and the 33 yr. old drinking owner bailed and ran. The motorist later IDed both after the police tracked the owner through registration. They both went to jail in cuffs. Yeaa. Empty beer cans were found and one half full and cool to the touch was found. State Farm sued and we later received our deductible back. Another time, we recived hail damage to our roof and found all kinds of roof material in the gutters. State Farm took care of that. My truck tailgate opened up after being sprayed by Line-X and it was always in a bind. My son hit a small pothole while making a right turn, the tailgate opened up, fell down, broke one of those worthless tailgate cables, detached from the passenger side of the truck, swung around and smashed in the driver's side rear quarter panel in addition to scarring up the tailgate. I paid the deductible and State Farm later returned it after dealing with Line-X (I love you Line-X but $1,400 is a bunch of money. I'll still use you on my next truck). My oldest son totalled his Saturn while another person was driving it and they paid for it but his insurance went sky high since it was a second claim on his driving record. It should have gone up. He was stupid. He had to go with another insurance company.

Now, adjusters and our experience.
We had to talk with the adjusters on the first van because they listed it as a panel van rather than a CS van with 3 seating rows and with windows. After several discussions we came to an agreement. No problem, we just told him we would not accept it and he had the wrong van model listed to begin with. We have not had any other problems with adjusters from State Farm or other companies except for the amount a company was willing to give us for the first Honda hit the second time.

I have my house, my trailer and 5 vehicles through State Farm and have a great insurance agent. I also have had teenagers but luckily most of the incidents above were not out and out faults on their own except for my son letting someone else drive his car. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I have nothing but good to say about State Farm and really hate that I have had the claims I have had through them. I guess over 33 years you will have some.

I did spend time with my agent showing him pictures of my '86 Sovereign and explaining what it was worth. He wrote up the figures based on that. I hope I never have to use my insurance again but that is what I pay for.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:12 PM   #43
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Thanks to all for your concerns. We have not overlooked our extreme fortune in walking away from the accident with no one hurt. We will certainly talk with our agent and ask her about the missing "replacement" rider and "gap" policies, as I asked for "full" coverage. I am now looking for an independent appraiser to stand up to their appraiser. Any ideas for finding one in Northern California?
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:16 AM   #44
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well david i was worried about that.

full coverage isn't replacement coverage, and a good agent would know the difference and explain the value of 'replacement coverage" on a new unit.

if you agree and buy the extra coverage, they get more premium and you get more complete loss coverage.

my understanding it that rv can be insured for 'full' coverage, 'replacement' coverage or 'agreed value' coverage....it's pretty obvious where each fits best.

the dollar loss with full coverage will be greater. but your numbers still seem off too much.

go at this slowiy. get the repair estimate. get qualified legal help.

keep us updated...

things will improve soon.

2air'
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Old 12-31-2006, 06:11 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ludwig
Thanks to all for your concerns. We have not overlooked our extreme fortune in walking away from the accident with no one hurt. We will certainly talk with our agent and ask her about the missing "replacement" rider and "gap" policies, as I asked for "full" coverage. I am now looking for an independent appraiser to stand up to their appraiser. Any ideas for finding one in Northern California?
David, are you looking for an appraiser or adjuster?

The value of your unit shouldn't be hard to establish. It's essentially new. There will be, of course, some depreciation as they all depreciate 10% or so when they're titled, but it shouldn't be more than that. I have a friend who has established herself as an expert in the vintage market, but I'm not sure that will help you much.

I'd think that your Airstream dealer would be your best friend in establishing a reasonable market value for your coach.

Roger
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Old 12-31-2006, 08:38 AM   #46
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Although I don't consider this law, I would start by looking at:

http://www.nadaguides.com/SectionHom...=25&p=0&f=5602
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:11 PM   #47
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nada guide isn't a good benchmark for insurance issues on any newer vehicle...

and david dealt with this in the original post....

"Establishing a market value: State Farm is using personnel who most likely have little or no specific experience with Airstreams and they are looking at the damaged, stripped trailer, with all of the finished upholstered items removed, trying to ascertain its market value. One source for finding the market value of a used RV is the NADA guide, available on line. You plug in the year, make and model of your RV, add the special equipment and they come up with two sets of numbers, “average” retail and “low” retail. The description of “average” does not correlate to a new trailer. My trailer was in above average condition at the time of the accident, but no “above average” numbers are available. Somehow the State Farm appraiser came up with a value that is $1500 below “average”. I have not been able to get a copy of the appraisal so I do not know if I am being penalized for having removed the upholstery."


and yes i do think he is being penalized for removing the upholstery.

cheers
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
nada guide isn't a good benchmark for insurance issues on any newer vehicle...

2air'
Never said it was a benchmark. I think if you read the post, I was saying a place to start. I found that when I did a NADA lookup when my unit was around the same age, I found that it was not 100%, but it was close and was in fact a good place to start if one hasn't a clue what a used RV is valued at.

Of course, the best way is to get a person to appraise what it was worth pre-accident.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:28 PM   #49
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Ok, I ran a NADA on a 2006 28' CCD with basic options and found that NADA has it worth about $55k. This is at youngest guess a 7 month old unit, if Airstream stopped making the 2006 models in late May timeframe. This brings up one of my points in an unrelated thread. Folks think they are typically getting a great deal when buying year end or last year's model, but the reality is that the second the next model year comes out, they tend to slip even further, even though year after year the new ones go up in price.

A new, 2007 28' Airstream CCD retail is about $70k:

Colonial Airstream " Of New Jersey " Airstream New Inventory Updated Weekly

Taking 15% off list and then 10% off for being titled as suggested and you'll find that the value of $55k isn't all that far off from what the current value of the unit is per the NADA guide.

Three things. First, these numbers are for estimate purposes only as there is no way to tell what the actual negotiated price was (market value and price paid will come into play here if it gets detailed). Second, I have no idea what options were installed on the damaged CCD. Third, I have not taken any account of the price increse that may have happened for 2007.

Bottom line, around $55k is what NADA has it pegged at and match what we all know folks pay for Airstreams based on % off list and the average of 10% the second the tire leaves the dealership.

Now if the policy has the coverage for replacement as some have, then it really doesn't matter since the insurance company is obliged to replace the unit with same up to a specified period of time. To me though, it doesn't sound like David has this kind of policy though.....

But again, this is only a guide, not law. A professional review might be needed if State Farm doesn't come around.
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Old 12-31-2006, 07:17 PM   #50
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Bummer of a loss..........Brings a tear to my eye. But then...Get even. Demand that Farmers insurance truck your Airstream to Ohio and have the factory repair it to brand new spects. Toscanos cannot repair your trailer to new spects. They are sales, service is another division and they cannot repair your trailer to like new condition. State farm may give you your full value if their smart (we can rule smart out). Also stop paying your monthly payments until the trailer is in Ohio Center and the work has begun.
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Old 12-31-2006, 07:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Tinsel Loaf
Bummer of a loss..........Brings a tear to my eye. But then...Get even. Demand that Farmers insurance truck your Airstream to Ohio and have the factory repair it to brand new spects. Toscanos cannot repair your trailer to new spects. They are sales, service is another division and they cannot repair your trailer to like new condition. State farm may give you your full value if their smart (we can rule smart out). Also stop paying your monthly payments until the trailer is in Ohio Center and the work has begun.
Unless you have an agreement with Thor Credit I would not stop paying the monthly payments, your credit will take a hit. Thor Credit is more than likely the lien holder on the trailer and the insurance check will go to them or to you as a doubled signed check. The lien holder will get their money first and you will have to pay the balance or will rec. the diffrence if the check covers the loan.

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Old 12-31-2006, 07:49 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinsel Loaf
Bummer of a loss..........Brings a tear to my eye. But then...Get even. Demand that Farmers insurance truck your Airstream to Ohio and have the factory repair it to brand new spects. Toscanos cannot repair your trailer to new spects. They are sales, service is another division and they cannot repair your trailer to like new condition. State farm may give you your full value if their smart (we can rule smart out). Also stop paying your monthly payments until the trailer is in Ohio Center and the work has begun.
Hi, I kind of agree with you and like I said earlier in this post, Either repair it or replace it. But I dissagree with your last statement on stopping payments. This could stop the process of recovery and put a mark on someone's credit report.


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Old 01-01-2007, 08:55 AM   #53
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I agree....you don't stop making payments. After about 60 days, they will leave a mark on your credit report. It's best to work through the process before making ANY drastic steps....and even if drastic steps are taken, (which I'm not sure will be necc), I'd consult with a lawyer first, but DON'T stop making payments. It could haunt you for years to come.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:21 AM   #54
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I'm not in the ins. biz. I am a jeweler and Certified Gemologist Appraiser. I do alot of appraisals for insurance replacement. I believe the co's responsibility is to make you "whole again". This means either repair, find a suitable replacement or give you enough money to find a replacement yourself.
With that in mind, I would do several things. Call the ins. commissioner in your state's Commerce division and inform them of your situation and let them know that you will keep the posted. Then contact S.F. and get the actual language of the policy and politely let them know that you have also been in contact with the ins. comm. (They are the ones that regulate the ins. co's in your state and if they tell S.F. to s***, S.F. will ask if they want it piled or sculpted.)
Then, I would go out on the marketplace and find no less than 5 units as similar to yours as possible that you would accept as replacements including all of the details. They will actually appreciate this effort and it will show good faith. This is called Market Research. This will give them a real life picture of actual replacements. Remember, unless they are pushed, they will only go by the figures they have at hand. I did this when as a kid, I had a car burn up. It was a Saab and they had very little info to go on, so I found the only 5 in the 3 state area for sale that were similar and told them to go buy any one of them for me. I had a fair check within days that was twice what they had offered.
Another thing you might want to do is look up Ins. Adjusters in your local phone book and talk to one who isn't working for S.F. He might be willing to give you some pointers and/or set you straight on your dilema.
Good Luck and Happy New Year.

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Old 01-01-2007, 11:34 AM   #55
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Guys,
I have done insurance related home work for 24 years and all policies are the same in one respect. The object of the policy is "To return the insured property to pre-loss condition or replace it at the fair market value". Replacement cost on a camper would be VERY unusual as they fall into the same depreciatory category as vehicles do. The replacement cost coverage would come into play if you had a water leak inside and damaged the cabinetry or the couch or tv etc. Then, they would replace the damaged item without depreciating it. I would not think that the replacement coverage rider would have any effect on the unit itself. I know it sounds dumb but that's the rule on homeowners policies. As to establishing value, if the adjuster's estimate is too low, which it certainly is in this case, you can ask for a second appraisal and you can bring in your own expert to rebuff theirs (at your cost). If all else fails, you can request Arbitration. They HATE this! I would try to get my own appraisal first (make sure it is a reputable, qualified appraiser, you could call dealerships and get names of Airstream qualified appraisers). If this doesn't work, then I would get an attorney to write them a letter stating that they are in breach of good faith (very big deal in most states). If they don't respond to that, request arbitration in writing via certified mail, return receipt. If you don't send it certified with a receipt, they will claim to have never gotten it. It sounds like you have an inexperienced adjuster (at least inexperienced with Airstream) and a tightwad adjuster as well. Don't forget to drag your agent into this. After all, he took your money and he is supposed to stand up for you. Tell him the story, vent a little and demand that he help you. If he won't help then you don't need him for an agent. Agents have a lot of stroke with claims, though they claim not too. Hope this helps man.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:36 AM   #56
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One more thing I forgot. If they just won't move on anything, tell THEM to find you an Airstream Service Center that will return your unit to pre-loss condition for the money they are offering. We all know they can't do it, but it puts them on the spot and puts the ball back in their court.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:14 PM   #57
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I’m out voted. Okay, keep paying your monthly payments. Here is how our full replacement value insurance worked. We had a property replacement policy with a huge well-known insurance carrier. Not Farmers. One night a storm destroyed about six hundred-foot of our fence. I got out the policy and found that the fence had to be completely on the ground. If it was supported by anything that portion was not covered and the fence must have been attached to the house somewhere. Since there were so many claims for downed fences they never sent out an appraiser. They just took my photographs and how many feet was destroyed and sent me a check for less than half of what it cost to install the fence. The fence was about seven years old and in like new condition before the storm. I proved to them what it cost to build, but they told me that their full replacement value policy only paid X dollars per foot regardless of what it cost to build. I asked to see their justification but they refused to show me. Some full replacement policy. You must read the fine print if you can find it.
Good luck with your Airstream, but do have Jackson Center do the repair if you must fix it. Nobody can bring it back to life like they will. They may even tell the insurance company to scrap it and you’ll get a new Airstream.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:02 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinsel Loaf
I’m out voted. Okay, keep paying your monthly payments. Here is how our full replacement value insurance worked. We had a property replacement policy with a huge well-known insurance carrier. Not Farmers. One night a storm destroyed about six hundred-foot of our fence. I got out the policy and found that the fence had to be completely on the ground. If it was supported by anything that portion was not covered and the fence must have been attached to the house somewhere. Since there were so many claims for downed fences they never sent out an appraiser. They just took my photographs and how many feet was destroyed and sent me a check for less than half of what it cost to install the fence. The fence was about seven years old and in like new condition before the storm. I proved to them what it cost to build, but they told me that their full replacement value policy only paid X dollars per foot regardless of what it cost to build. I asked to see their justification but they refused to show me. Some full replacement policy. You must read the fine print if you can find it.
Good luck with your Airstream, but do have Jackson Center do the repair if you must fix it. Nobody can bring it back to life like they will. They may even tell the insurance company to scrap it and you’ll get a new Airstream.
I had 270 feet of fence downed by Katrina, Allstate sent out 3 adjusters and before it ended I was paid for my fence. In the case of Allstate replacement value is just that you will get what it cost to replace the insured property, if you elect not to replace it you will get the depreciated value. They did have the connected to the house clause, but did not say anything about what was still standing. I had it removed and stacked and temporary fence in place before the adjustes showed up, I had to mitigate damages. I collected for the cost of the temporary fence also.

I agree Jackson Center is the expert and they should be the final authority.

Jim

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Old 01-02-2007, 09:37 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinsel Loaf
Bummer of a loss..........Brings a tear to my eye. But then...Get even. Demand that Farmers insurance truck your Airstream to Ohio and have the factory repair it to brand new spects. Toscanos cannot repair your trailer to new spects. They are sales, service is another division and they cannot repair your trailer to like new condition. State farm may give you your full value if their smart (we can rule smart out). Also stop paying your monthly payments until the trailer is in Ohio Center and the work has begun.
There are a few dealers that "can" rebuild any Airstream trailer ever made.

We are one of them.

An insurance company can select such a dealer that has a proven track record over the factory.

Andy
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:57 PM   #60
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I am really glad you and your girlfriend were not physically hurt. I know that emotionally you were and this has been a nightmare.

Have you made a counter offer as your insurance company invited? Their first offer may have been to test the waters, so to say, and their way of opening the door to see what your expectations really are. In other words, it was to put the ball in your court.

Until you have made a counter offer and it has been rejected, all of the advise you have received is for naught. Make a serious offer that will include what the trailer was worth before the accident and see if they will accept it. If they do, congradulations. If they reject it, ask them for a counter to your counter offer. You can continue this process as long as it is productive or until you reach an acceptable settlement. When it becomes unproductive, you can then begin to implement the suggestions that have been made here. In the interim you can, of course, become prepared to use the suggestions because more than likely, you will have to. But without a counter offer, you will not be in a position to "negotiate" with them nor will you have the legal leg you will need if you do end up in court. Good luck.
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