GM wants a government bail out

[jimmini]

Originally Posted by RBolton

purman, you haven't owned a GM product snce your '01 Blazer, but yet you call eveything they make junk?

Even if it is, how do you propose these domestic manufacturers fix themselves? The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?

Roger

Why fix them? There plum weak north of there ear's. They have had years to get it right and failed. No reasons to give them our tax $$$ now

Life ain't fair, and neither is making car's.Do you see Honda or Toyota standing in line asking for a Government hand out.NO they make good autos in the U.S.A. They have it right and better quality cars.

I am tired of hearing Detroit crying over the milk they spilt.Then they want the Government with my tax $$$ to come cleane it up.If they want to fix it let them cowboy up and fix it themself or just let them lie there and bleed.

Hell let's all all go over to Wall Mart and buy some China made junk.
Or we can go to one of the big 3 car dealers and buy some U.S.A made junk.

PS I owen a Ford and a GMC.

[RBolton]

Originally Posted by Air2Go

"The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?"

Maybe in the same way they have accomplished all of those things during the boom era of the high profit-margin SUV...

which is to say that perhaps they won't.

I'm am not defending their past actions. But I could. They didn't force high profit-margin SUVs on us. That's what we wanted. They didn't invent the horsepower war and then build to it. We demanded it. Don't forget that Toyota, Nissan and to a lesser extent Honda were entering that segment too. Fuel prices shot up and the enconomy tanked relatively almost overnight. If gas was $1.50 a gallon and the Dow was at 11000 we wouldn't even be having this discussion. These companies can't just turn around in their skin. It takes years to develop new product and bring it to market. Sure they should have been looking ahead but they were focusing on what was keeping the bills paid.

If there companies fail, dozens of top managers will be out millions. Good, they deserve it. But the thousands that will be out billions don't and the country does not deserve to loose the manufacturing segment that made us number one in the world.

Roger

[crispyboy]

Originally Posted by purman

Buick (junk)
Cadillac (you can get americans to buy them but thats it)
Chevrolet (no comment)
GMC (glorified Chevy)

Jason,
I couldn't agree with you less on your assessment of GM products. I have not personally owned any of these GM vehicles (not really a fan) but my family and the company I work for all run them. I used to drive 45k/year on a Lumina. All of them get ran over 200k miles. The have some issues but overall they hold up pretty well. This also goes for the Ford, Chrysler & Jeep products have all held up well. I think they all make quality cars.
Personally I drive a Honda Civic back and forth to work. If it wasn't for such a good - once in a lifetime deal on this car I would never own it. Granted it is a reliable car 95% of the time but it's like riding on a skateboard and the seats make my back ache on any trip over 30 minutes. There is a mechanic here locally who has a radio talk show every saturday morning. He comments that he has as many complaints about Toyota's as he does domestic cars.
As far as bailing out of GM - I don't think it's a good idea unless they actually have a plan to restructure. It would be a shame to see so many people loose their jobs - I really, really hate to see this and feel much empathy for those folks. GM is going to have to get leaner to survive and it will be a shame to see them break up Chrysler when they are building such nice cars. I would love to own a Charger/RT or a Ram pickup.

Steve

[purman]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

Jason,
I couldn't agree with you less on your assessment of GM products. I have not personally owned any of these GM vehicles (not really a fan) but my family and the company I work for all run them. I used to drive 45k/year on a Lumina. All of them get ran over 200k miles. The have some issues but overall they hold up pretty well. This also goes for the Ford, Chrysler & Jeep products have all held up well. I think they all make quality cars.
Personally I drive a Honda Civic back and forth to work. If it wasn't for such a good - once in a lifetime deal on this car I would never own it. Granted it is a reliable car 95% of the time but it's like riding on a skateboard and the seats make my back ache on any trip over 30 minutes. There is a mechanic here locally who has a radio talk show every saturday morning. He comments that he has as many complaints about Toyota's as he does domestic cars.
As far as bailing out of GM - I don't think it's a good idea unless they actually have a plan to restructure. It would be a shame to see so many people loose their jobs - I really, really hate to see this and feel much empathy for those folks. GM is going to have to get leaner to survive and it will be a shame to see them break up Chrysler when they are building such nice cars. I would love to own a Charger/RT or a Ram pickup.

Steve

Not just talking about reliability here... look at how they are built... Plastic junk that doesn't even fit together right... or falls apart, moves, rattles... Not to say Toyota, Honda, Nissan aren't like that but they seem to fit together better... I have a friend with a 2 year old Suburban that has been in the shop 6 times,, nothing major but still a pain to have to take it in for stuff... my '01 4 runner has 150,000 miles Never a problem... I have replaced brakes and fluids, thats it.... Yes and timing built when the manual said to.

My 01 Blazer had a new rear end, front end, four wheel drive, Vacuum leak that took 8 months to find so the A/C would come on randomly... Wiper switch and trim falling off... luckily I had an extended warranty.. All within 50,000 miles...

My neighbor has a '97 blazer with nearly 500,000 miles on the same engine,, two Transmissions, and about every other part replaced on the motor but it's still running... For all he spent he could have bought a new car by now...(maybe)

Look the Point here is They shouldn't get a cheap loan or a bail out (which it looks like they wont') for bad businesses practices..

Can't believe they have the gaul to ask the American people for the money to by Chrysler... Unbelievable...


Their cars are getting better. But they carry a bad stigma.... The big 3 started building bad cars in the 70's and didn't stop till a few years ago...

Sure there are exceptions.. There's a few good ones, just like there are some bad ones out of Japan....

NO FREE MONEY FOR AUTO MAKERS TO BUY OTHER BRANDS>>>>

[Forrest]

I guess the only thing I'd like to add to this discussion is to remember that the US tax dollars and loans built back up the Japanese industries from the ground up after WWII. As a result those factories were state of the art for at least a couple of decades, while our own factories had to catch up on their own AND comply with EPA regulations. The Chinese and Koreans likewise are able to invest in advanced car design to a greater percentage than the US because they pay their labor poorly (in comparison) and ignore the damage they are doing to the environment. It's difficult for US based companies to compete because we've made the playing field unlevel in so many ways.

[purman]

Originally Posted by Forrest

I guess the only thing I'd like to add to this discussion is to remember that the US tax dollars and loans built back up the Japanese industries from the ground up after WWII. As a result those factories were state of the art for at least a couple of decades, while our own factories had to catch up on their own AND comply with EPA regulations. The Chinese and Koreans likewise are able to invest in advanced car design to a greater percentage than the US because they pay their labor poorly (in comparison) and ignore the damage they are doing to the environment. It's difficult for US based companies to compete because we've made the playing field unlevel in so many ways.

I would agree with this, It sucks,, But if we go back a fix every mistake we made our taxes would be 80% look what we did to the Japanese that lived here during WWII and the Native Americans before that.... The Mexicans etc...

As my daughter says.. "YOU GET WHAT YOU GET AND YOU DON"T THROW A FIT"

They need to work with what they have...

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, close the doors and start over again. We did it to ourselves. Maybe we should have DeLorean or Tucker make U.S. cars. Kill the unions that are killing us. Why does the competition do better than us? Because they can send you home or fire you if you don't produce a good day's work with real quality. I don't feel sorry for the people who punched the UAW time clocks and made big bucks and hugh benifits for doing a sloppy job during the 30 minutes of actual work done in an eight hour day. I had a friend who was employed at an aircraft factory making twice the money per hour as I did and had benifits, in-which I had none; But when he come home from work and I asked him "what did you do today?" and his answer was, "I put (6) rivets in a wing." He told me, "with perfection, that was only about 30 minutes work"; And yet he got called in for overtime too because the production line was behind. [now he was making triple the amount I made for an honest living.] Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for a lot of those people and they know who they are. [the slackers, not the good workers]

Hi, I'm not rich and have to make do with what I have, so I shop at Costco, Target, and Wal-Mart. I'm not paying more than I have to if possible. Go to Nordstrom's or Macy's and look at that $300.00 sweater or that $500.00 cotton dress, and yes, it too is made in China. For that kind of money, I expect it to be made in Italy, Germany, or even U.S.A.

In my life time I have owned close to / or more than (50) cars or trucks and out of those only four were foreign. Ford Courier, [mine] Toyota Corolla, [wife's] Opel Izuzu, [wife's] and BMW X3. [wife's] And except for one Chevrolet truck and one Plymouth, all the rest were Fords, Lincoln, and Mercury's.

[purman]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, close the doors and start over again. We did it to ourselves. Maybe we should have DeLorean or Tucker make U.S. cars. Kill the unions that are killing us. Why does the competition do better than us? Because they can send you home or fire you if you don't produce a good day's work with real quality. I don't feel sorry for the people who punched the UAW time clocks and made big bucks and hugh benifits for doing a sloppy job during the 30 minutes of actual work done in an eight hour day. I had a friend who was employed at an aircraft factory making twice the money per hour as I did and had benifits, in-which I had none; But when he come home from work and I asked him "what did you do today?" and his answer was, "I put (6) rivets in a wing." He told me, "with perfection, that was only about 30 minutes work"; And yet he got called in for overtime too because the production line was behind. [now he was making triple the amount I made for an honest living.] Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for a lot of those people and they know who they are. [the slackers, not the good workers]

I think you just hit this on the head.....

the Unions help out the workers at the turn of the century but now they just cause trouble..... Your right, they can't get fired... It like tenier for a college professor... Ridiculous...

I had a friend who work at Medigold dairy... If a job needed to be done the boss couldn't do it... He had to ask the employee's first, Even something like sweeping the floor... RIDICULOUS...

And you Union people Sorry but this is the truth.... What do you get for your dues.... You stike while the Union bosses sit in there big houses doing nothing... Think about all the money they have collected..

WHERE has it gone?????

The union employee's didn't see any of it...

[mrmossyone]

Greed is the underlying factor in all of this mess. Everybody wants more, more, more without any thought toward the future.

[jimmini]

Posting 87 ,88and 89 are right on .

GREED ,Both the unions and the companies are plum weak north of there ear's to have let there members and employees over the last 60 years put out poorer and poorer quality cars, that is what has GM,Ford and Chryseler where they are.They both should have rememberd "never corner something meaner than you"and that was the American public that turned on them and stop buying there JUNK.
Like I have said before if they can't cowboy up and pull them self up by their boot straps let both the unions and the companies lie there and bleed.
I do not want my tax $$$$ wasted on them.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by overlander63

According to the report, the government is not giving GM the cash to buy Chrysler, it doesn't say anything about saving the company (or not) if it starts a death spiral.

Didn't say it did....just posted it to show that the gov is not funding the buyout, but my additional comments are that if GM needed money to survive, you better believe the gov will be there for them.....Ford too...

[jimmini]

Originally Posted by RBolton

One day we'll all drive Toyotas, We'll buy them at Wal-Mart and when we go back for service and no one there speaks English we'll all wonder what in the h*** happened.

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.

Roger

Here is one of the problems, Americans willing to buy poor quality stuff.
We ALL should stand up to a person,company or countery that make junk and not buy it.If it does not sell because of poor quality it will be improved or the maker will go out of business.
Will anyone here accept POOR QUALITY maintenance on an airlines aircraft that your riding on?Or poor quality from a surgeon that is going to operate on you?
So why accept it from the big 3 auto makers?

[jimmini]

Originally Posted by RBolton

purman, you haven't owned a GM product snce your '01 Blazer, but yet you call eveything they make junk?

Even if it is, how do you propose these domestic manufacturers fix themselves? The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?
Roger

They can fix themself with the helping hand that is on the end of there arms.Not with tax payers $$$.I dont see the unions leaders out leading a charge up the hill with there members to help save these companies that they get a pay check from.
What makes anyone think the new product will have improved quality when the manufactures have the same plum weak north of the ears CEOs and union leaders with only GREED on there mind, that should be leading the labor force putting the NEW cars togeather to do a better quality job?
"Ya can tell a real winner by the way he plays a losin hand"

[purman]

Originally Posted by jimmini

:
Will anyone here accept POOR QUALITY maintenance on an airlines aircraft that your riding on?Or poor quality from a surgeon that is going to operate on you?
So why accept it from the big 3 auto makers?

What do you mean????? We already do.....

[jimmini]

Originally Posted by purman

What do you mean????? We already do.....

NOT ME that why I have a Airstream SQUARESTREAM.

If it ain't Boeing I ain't going. Now tht quality.

[toastie]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...

Much like the Michigan congressional delegation, which sent its own letter to Paulson and Bernanke last week, the governors said Detroit's Big Three are too big to fail. The auto industry employs millions of Americans and it is one of the largest buyers of steel, aluminum, iron, copper, plastics, rubber and electronics. And a large network of suppliers, vendors and dealers rely on the economic stability of Motor City, they said.

The price of aluminum will go thru the ruff if there is a auto chapter 11, Airtream chapter 11??? my guess is yes............

[jimmini]

Remember if all the big 3 fail it will make no differance to anything.
There will be someone there to pick up the remains.Americans want X number of cars each year, never mind if they need them or not and some one is going to make them if the big 3 fail, be it Honda Toyota or someone from India,china,Korea,Taiwan or even maybe a new and better American company.
Like I have said before the big 3 have brought it on themselfs with CEO and the Unions letting cars of POOR QUALITY on to the market.
I do not understand why the unions are not doing anything to save their jobs by helping the companies that give them a pay check.
I DO NOT want to see my tax $$$ spent on A-- HOLE unions and CEOs,let the big 3 die if they cant save themself.

[Over59]

GM is a pension and health care fund pretending to be a for profit company and they still aren't giving us the products they make for the rest of the world. They and their workers are not competitive. Their executives ect drive around in big Burbs and Caddies on the company. They just don't get it. You would be saving a business model that is broken. They can do a pre-structured bankruptcy and save themselves.

[jimmini]

I still see the BIG 3 wasting lots of their $$$ on NASCAR.But want $$$$$$ from the Government.

NASCAR will look funny with only Toyota running when the big 3 are gone.

[toastie]

Originally Posted by purman

Lets just take a look at what companies GM has

Buick (junk)
Cadillac (you can get americans to buy them but thats it)
Chevrolet (no comment)
GMC (glorified Chevy)
GM Daewoo (big hunk of junk)
Holden (another name for Chevy in Eroupe)
Hummer (over priced Suburban)
Oldsmobile (it an't my dads is right)
Opel (Man can't beleive they still make it)
Pontiac (Nice in the '60's)
Saab (was good till GM bought them)
Saturn (Ok car)
Vauxhall (#2 seller in England, but junk)

This is how they got in a mess, Buying up companies that aren't making them more money than they spent to buy them... What are they thinking.

Why are we paying for a retooling?????? thats part of doing business... I don't care if it is national security (WHICH IT ISN"T) If we go to war and someone else owns it we just take it... We put the Japanese in camps in WWII, Took there stuff, and the Indians also "right Jimmy"

What it comes down to is bad business that isn't gonna change if they don't have to fix it themselves...

Look Ford bought Jaguar, and it wasn't making money then or now... Ford made the Jag look like a Ford and act like a Ford with a Jag sticker... My '89 has more character than the new ones... Ford screwed Jag up even more and know want to sell it.... The Big 3 need to work on there stuff not buying other stuff...

purman

Can you please back up your statements with facts, there is a measurement of data out there and I'm sure that you are using those measuremnet, please share with us your knowledge that backs up your statements since you started this thread of GM's junk compared to Japans autos..........thanks

toastie