GM wants a government bail out

[DFord79]

Originally Posted by purman

I'm gonna be paying off my house as soon as I can, buy up a bunch of ammo for the guns and wait it all out...

Get in line, gun sales are up 10% this year after years of steady or declining hand gun sales.

[purman]

I don't need guns just the ammo, already have 5 guns just need to stock pile the ammo...

[jimmini]

Originally Posted by purman

I'm gonna be paying off my house as soon as I can, buy up a bunch of ammo for the guns and wait it all out...

HOUSE paid for,AIRSTREAM paid for,TOW VEHICLE paid for,GUNS paid for,AMMO paid for,GOLD paid for,Lots of CASH.DISASTER PLAN done.
LET'S ROLL
"In the good old days when we was in a fix we'd call on judge Colt and his jury of 6"

[Diesel1]

Originally Posted by jimmini

HOUSE paid for,AIRSTREAM paid for,TOW VEHICLE paid for,GUNS paid for,AMMO paid for,GOLD paid for,Lots of CASH.DISASTER PLAN done.
LET'S ROLL
"In the good old days when we was in a fix we'd call on judge Colt and his jury of 6"

As the political ads say " I approve this plan"

[toastie]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Didn't the big 3 saddle that off to the unions to manage. I thought the put a ton of money into the pensions, then left it to the unions to manage and grow.

I agree fully that it is a national security issue, as it would be for nearly any bellwether stock that manufactures essential machines. Back in WW2, there were no new cars for a number of years cause the car companies built tanks and such. In the global world we find ourselves in, it's a bit more complicated, but the undercurrents are the same.

To bad we don't have the same philosophy when it comes to domestic and renewable energy vs. foreign energy supplies which only make others wealthy and dangerous to us.

100,000,000,000 just for the "Pensions only" if just GM fails!

The government has an interest in making sure automakers survive because of huge pension plans that it would have to insure, and the huge number of jobs that could go away if one of the companies goes bankrupt.
Chrysler employs about 49,000 in the U.S. and has roughly 125,000 pensioners. GM has 177,000 U.S. workers and around 500,000 people receiving pensions.
For each auto manufacturing job, there are 7.5 jobs with parts makers and other companies, according to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. Chrysler alone accounts for 318,500 to 392,000 jobs, while GM and Ford account for 2 million each, the center said.
David Cole, the center's chairman, said the industry may need $15 billion to $20 billion in unrestricted federal aid to stay afloat long enough to outlast the economic downturn and take advantage of an auto sales resurgence.
"You're looking at a rather nominal amount compared to the cost of a failure," Cole said. "You have to look at that as a good investment, an old ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
He estimated that it could cost the government more than $100 billion if GM or Ford go into bankruptcy from pension obligations and the loss of people paying income taxes and instead receiving government benefits.
Nate Bailey, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., whose district includes Chrysler's Auburn Hills headquarters, said Knollenberg has been in touch with auto executives and the administration to "ensure the auto companies get everything that they need to protect jobs and move forward."

[SteveH]

Now, do you still think it's a good idea to buy a Toyota?

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Air2Go

"Oct 29th, 2008 | DETROIT -- If General Motors Corp. acquires Chrysler LLC, it will cost 25,000 to 35,000 jobs at the automakers, according to a Michigan consulting firm."

I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...

[Overlander & Sea]

Originally Posted by toastie

100,000,000,000 just for the "Pensions only" if just GM fails!

The government has an interest in making sure automakers survive because of huge pension plans that it would have to insure, and the huge number of jobs that could go away if one of the companies goes bankrupt.
Chrysler employs about 49,000 in the U.S. and has roughly 125,000 pensioners. GM has 177,000 U.S. workers and around 500,000 people receiving pensions.
For each auto manufacturing job, there are 7.5 jobs with parts makers and other companies, according to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. Chrysler alone accounts for 318,500 to 392,000 jobs, while GM and Ford account for 2 million each, the center said.
David Cole, the center's chairman, said the industry may need $15 billion to $20 billion in unrestricted federal aid to stay afloat long enough to outlast the economic downturn and take advantage of an auto sales resurgence.
"You're looking at a rather nominal amount compared to the cost of a failure," Cole said. "You have to look at that as a good investment, an old ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
He estimated that it could cost the government more than $100 billion if GM or Ford go into bankruptcy from pension obligations and the loss of people paying income taxes and instead receiving government benefits.
Nate Bailey, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., whose district includes Chrysler's Auburn Hills headquarters, said Knollenberg has been in touch with auto executives and the administration to "ensure the auto companies get everything that they need to protect jobs and move forward."

Thank You!

Originally Posted by SteveH

Now, do you still think it's a good idea to buy a Toyota?

Thank You!!!!

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...

.................and THANK YOU!!!!!

[jimmini]

Wisdom is realizing you're riding down the wrong trail....again.
GM,Ford and Chryseler are just BIG medical and retirement plans that try and sell cars on the side.They have to cowboy up or just lie there and bleed.

GM,Ford and Chryselers poor managment has been diggin for water under the outhouse with the unions for the past 60 years. This is the biggest reason they have problems today.The good lessons come hard and cost us tax payers dear.

If the near 1 million retirees from the big 3 would go out and buy a NEW car from one of the big 3 that would be the cowboy way to help.

Tell me what good it is to GM to spend the Government Loan to buy a looser like Chryseler? When you find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is stop diggin.

I guess the Government figures us tax payers will get use to hangin,if they let us hang long enough over the poor loans and bail out stuff.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Air2Go]

"Goldman Sachs is on course to pay its top City bankers multi-million pound bonuses, despite asking the U.S. government for an emergency bail-out.

The struggling Wall Street bank has set aside £7bn for salaries and year-end bonuses this year, it emerged tonight.

The scale of the pay pool means the firm's 443 partners are on course to pocket an average Christmas bonus of over £3m.

The staff bonanza comfortably dwarfs the £6.1bn lifeline the American government is throwing to Goldman as part of its $700bn scheme to resuscitate the US financial industry.

It means that as Washington pours money into the bank, the cash will immediately be channelled into the bank accounts of Goldman's already well-heeled bankers."


Unfortunately, the business of bailouts is a slippery slope. As the government prepares to now throw cash at GM, might we all (since we are all effectively being made automakers), ask how things can be improved to avoid a future much like the present?

[toastie]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...

The 100,000,000,000 is what the goverment would have to pick up for the pensions only, the health care is what will pass to the U.A.W. in the year 2010, if GM file chapter 11 who know what will happen with that. India has 1 billion people, 250 million of them speak very good english, China has 1.2 billion people, we have over 350 million people in our country and about 80 million of those working, those country could suck every job out of this county. Warren Buffet is saying buy American.

[RBolton]

One day we'll all drive Toyotas, We'll buy them at Wal-Mart and when we go back for service and no one there speaks English we'll all wonder what in the h*** happened.

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.

Roger

[Diesel1]

Originally Posted by RBolton

One day we'll all drive Toyotas, We'll buy them at Wal-Mart and when we go back for service and no one there speaks English we'll all wonder what in the h*** happened.

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.

Roger

Thanks, couldn't have said it better! John

[Jim & Susan]

I have another question. If GM folds, why would I then have to pay $100 billion to their former employees in the form of pensions?

Jim

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Air2Go

Unfortunately, the business of bailouts is a slippery slope. As the government prepares to now throw cash at GM, might we all (since we are all effectively being made automakers), ask how things can be improved to avoid a future much like the present?

Of this, I would totally agree. Although it goes against every grain, a slight form of socialism is what may simply fix this short term with some longer term rules put in place.

For a moment, imagine that there is no United States, no land west of England. In the current climate, how does one in England sleep at night not having Jaguar, Land Rover, etc owned by and English company? That reality is called National Security. Fortunately there is a United States and one does not have to worry about National Security that much if you are a friend of the United States, because as one U.S. President once said:

"We did not choose to be the guardians at the gate, but there is no one else."

If you think in Russia or in China or at an OPEC meetig they are even having anywhere near these discussions.....

Do I think the Industrial Military Complex is warranted? Not really, but those who fail to heed history are doomed to repeat it. It's a double edged sword.

In the current world, there is a need for manufacturing facilities, yet less of a need similar to that of WW II, however, who in there right mind would let the manufacturing sector mostly evaporate, particularly, as Superpower?

A really great movie to see is "Why we fight". It puts a lot of this into perspective. Ike was right though.....as he clearly points out the slippery slopes we ride....

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

....... Although it goes against every grain, a slight form of socialism is what may ........

Incredibly slippery slop. But, it's been going on for years. In the end, we are all going to end up like the countries of Western Europe, eh?

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

I have another question. If GM folds, why would I then have to pay $100 billion to their former employees in the form of pensions?

Jim

Well if you've got it then Jim, why not? Maybe it's so the old people could still eat and live and because their retirement was part of their earnings for work already rendered. It's not like they can go back and get the job either. I imagine it's something akin to the government guaranteeing your money will be available for you from your bank. ???

Anywho today's news from the Motor City state of Michigan is that the state unemployment fund is out of money.

Here's the explanation as to why,
"Each year, the first $9,000 you make brings a tax on your employer to pay unemployment benefits.
Nearly a quarter million Michigan companies pay into the fund and in a good year, it adds up to about $1.5 billion half dollars.
When a company’s layoffs exceed taxes paid they’re known as negative balance employers.
Right now, Michigan has 33,000 negative balance employers.
There will be a need for millions more if thousands of job cuts come from a possible General Motors Chrysler merger.
In order to re-pay the loans, the state will raise taxes on the negative balance employers, starting in January. It amounts to about $68 per employee.
The state will also raise unemployment taxes on businesses laying off the most employees to take care of the loan balance."

I am assuming the government isn't interested in the companies profits or the salaries of the CEOs but subsidies would be for the benefit of the impact on the population of the state.

[Larry in MO]

Originally Posted by RBolton

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.
Roger

Roger has hit points but I would like to add a little. My part time job is w/ a Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealer locally. I work in the parts department mainly but I shuffle cars or whatever is required. First, Pontiac G6s and G8s are made in Australia and shipped here. A bunch of the engines and transmissions for other GM items are made in Canada and Mexico. My Dodge truck was made in Mexico. Look at the window stickers on a new vehicle for that info. Other placards on the door jamb will tell you more.

Additionally, my new wheels for my Harley were made in Australia. All Harley leather is made in Carjackistan or somewhere. Toyota plants in this country employ thousands of people. Interestingly, Toyota makes the Pontiac Vibe. Other than some head gasket problems, we never see them in the service dept. other than the oil change specials. Way more w/ GM vehicles come in.

The point is that this is a world economy. Companies make a product as economically as they can and stuff is made overseas because they don't have to pay huge benefits. Buying American is a good plan but you can't do it 100%. Look in your shoes, shirts, coats. You shop for deals because you don't want to pay more--it simply costs more made in the US. I wish it were not so but it is.

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by Larry in MO

Roger has hit points but I would like to add a little. My part time job is w/ a Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealer locally. I work in the parts department mainly but I shuffle cars or whatever is required. First, Pontiac G6s and G8s are made in Australia and shipped here. A bunch of the engines and transmissions for other GM items are made in Canada and Mexico. My Dodge truck was made in Mexico. Look at the window stickers on a new vehicle for that info. Other placards on the door jamb will tell you more.

Additionally, my new wheels for my Harley were made in Australia. All Harley leather is made in Carjackistan or somewhere. Toyota plants in this country employ thousands of people. Interestingly, Toyota makes the Pontiac Vibe. Other than some head gasket problems, we never see them in the service dept. other than the oil change specials. Way more w/ GM vehicles come in.

The point is that this is a world economy. Companies make a product as economically as they can and stuff is made overseas because they don't have to pay huge benefits. Buying American is a good plan but you can't do it 100%. Look in your shoes, shirts, coats. You shop for deals because you don't want to pay more--it simply costs more made in the US. I wish it were not so but it is.

Larry, you hit several good points also, but some of the things you skip over is the foreign manufacturers in this country have an advantage, and that is most are not union shops, and therefore, they don't have to pay union benefits. It's the benefits that are killing the US auto makers. The other point I'd like to make is, no matter where the vehicle is assembled, or where the parts are made, the company that produces the vehicle, gets the net profits in their country of origin.... i.e., the profits for Toyota sales goes to Japan, etc.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

Well if you've got it then Jim, why not? Maybe it's so the old people could still eat and live and because their retirement was part of their earnings for work already rendered. ......

OK, so does this mean that GM as been underfunding their retirement program lo these many years? Using this same logic, can I get the taxpayers (wait, that's me!) to fund my 401k should I fall short in my senior years. I don't have a traditional, company funded, retiremant plan. Does that seem fair to everybody? After all, I just want what "they" have.

Jim