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09-01-2021, 02:44 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
2021 30' Globetrotter
Oviedo
, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,356
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Thor Industries Acquires Airxcel
Saw this over on the IRV2 forums. Now I know why we're seeing Coleman ACs instead of Dometics on pictures of the 2022s
THOR Industries Acquires Airxcel, a Leading Supplier of OEM and Aftermarket RV Parts and Accessories
Acquisition Allows THOR the Ability to Strengthen its Supply Chain in Challenging Environment
THOR Also Expands its Asset-Based Credit Facility From $750 million to $1.0 Billion
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301367337.html
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09-01-2021, 02:57 PM
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#2
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Moderator
2004 30' Classic Slideout
Fenton
, Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondrew55
Saw this over on the IRV2 forums. Now I know why we're seeing Coleman ACs instead of Dometics on pictures of the 2022s
THOR Industries Acquires Airxcel, a Leading Supplier of OEM and Aftermarket RV Parts and Accessories
Acquisition Allows THOR the Ability to Strengthen its Supply Chain in Challenging Environment
THOR Also Expands its Asset-Based Credit Facility From $750 million to $1.0 Billion
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301367337.html
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Interesting development. This gives Thor access to these products at a lower cost basis than obtaining them from a manufacturer like Dometic. Obviously likely to increase their profit margin per RV they build. I'm wondering whether Dometic will reduce their pricing to attempt to buy back market share that they will lose to THOR/Airxcel.
Jack
__________________
Jack Canavera
STL Mo.
AIR #56 S/OS#15
'04 Classic 30' S.O.,'03 GMC Savana 2500
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09-02-2021, 08:44 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2021 33FB Classic
2019 30' Flying Cloud
Katy
, Texas
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera
Interesting development. This gives Thor access to these products at a lower cost basis than obtaining them from a manufacturer like Dometic. Obviously likely to increase their profit margin per RV they build. I'm wondering whether Dometic will reduce their pricing to attempt to buy back market share that they will lose to THOR/Airxcel.
Jack
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Frequently, cost is not the primary reason that organizations use acquisitions to vertically integrate. (If you’re a large enough buyer, you can usually negotiate very favorable purchase terms.)
I expect this has more to do with access/availability of components intended to strengthen the overall supply chain. If you own the supplier, you have a lot more control over how inventory gets allocated. In these days of broken supply chains, this is real power.
__________________
2021 Classic 33
2020 GMC 3500HD Duramax AT4
ProPride 3P
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09-02-2021, 09:47 AM
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#4
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Moderator
2004 30' Classic Slideout
Fenton
, Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaybauman
Frequently, cost is not the primary reason that organizations use acquisitions to vertically integrate. (If you’re a large enough buyer, you can usually negotiate very favorable purchase terms.)
I expect this has more to do with access/availability of components intended to strengthen the overall supply chain. If you own the supplier, you have a lot more control over how inventory gets allocated. In these days of broken supply chains, this is real power.
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Good alternative answer on this. If Thor diverts the output of this subsidiary for it's own use, I guess Dometic will have product available to move to fill the gap left in the industry left by Thor's diversion to their use.
I wonder how many of Thor's RV divisions will use Airxcel's product line? I'm imagining that if it is an access/availability issue, Dometic was having problems meeting Thor's needs. Apparently R-410A while more earth friendly is still on the hit list to be replaced. Supposedly 2023 will the year where 410A will be eliminated in new air conditioning units due to pending government requirements.
The replacement will either be R454B or R32 which have less of an impact on global warming. From what I have found out, R32 is technically 1/2 composed of R410A. The advantage is that R32 requires less fill volume and is more efficient. The negative is that both R454B and R32 run at higher pressures and are mildly flammable.
So This will probably push up the price of air conditioners due to the need to engineer products that have higher tolerances to reduce leaks and higher pressure requirements. It would be interesting if the Airxcel product purchase was tied to where Dometic and Airxcel are in that conversion and manufacturing process. Could it be that Airxcel who builds their Air Conditioners in the US is more prepared to move to the new R454B or R32 standards due to federal regulations? Dometic is a global brand that has European roots. I'm not sure. But whatever your air conditioner is, know that it's successor will probably be different technology in 2023. My Penguin heat/pump was installed on my 2004 Clasic back in October 2003. Every year I say a prayer of thanks when it fires up successfully.
Jack
__________________
Jack Canavera
STL Mo.
AIR #56 S/OS#15
'04 Classic 30' S.O.,'03 GMC Savana 2500
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09-02-2021, 09:59 AM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2012 Avenue Coach
Corpus Christi
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,719
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I hope Thor starts using the Coleman NDQ roof ac's. Very quiet and efficient.
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09-02-2021, 11:20 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2009 34' Panamerica
2005 28' Classic
Still
, in the thick of it
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera
The replacement will either be R454B or R32 which have less of an impact on global warming. From what I have found out, R32 is technically 1/2 composed of R410A. The advantage is that R32 requires less fill volume and is more efficient. The negative is that both R454B and R32 run at higher pressures and are mildly flammable.
Jack
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I swear it's always something with refrigerant. R-12 was great, but a train wreck for the environment. R-22 was supposed to be more enviro-friendly, until it wasn't. 410a was suppose to be final, final, yea, this one is the one, only to find now after how many millions of installed units that it's not and that another change is in the air (tongue in cheek).
It's almost as a bad as computers....planned obsolescence. 5-10 years from now, perfectly good 410a units will not be able to get a recharge if needed and those that do (not talking RV roof units), will cost a arm and a leg, or spend 2 arms and 2 legs on a new system.
Sigh......progress!
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09-02-2021, 11:41 AM
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#7
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Hi
You can get into all sorts of tangles with this "captive source is good" sort of thing. I've seen cases where the "outside customer" gets moved to the front of the line. Why? They pay 5% more for the same thing. Division profits go up when we ship to them ....
Does it always work that way? Of course not. It's highly dependent on how much central control there is. Lots of claims are made on the forum about Thor being extremely hands off . If so .....
Bob
Bob
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09-02-2021, 11:42 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2021 30' Globetrotter
Oviedo
, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,356
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My understanding is 410 operates at higher pressure and requires thinner tubing in the coils for better heat transfer. That ends up meaning the systems are much more subject to corrosion and mechanical damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panamerican
I swear it's always something with refrigerant. R-12 was great, but a train wreck for the environment. R-22 was supposed to be more enviro-friendly, until it wasn't. 410a was suppose to be final, final, yea, this one is the one, only to find now after how many millions of installed units that it's not and that another change is in the air (tongue in cheek).
It's almost as a bad as computers....planned obsolescence. 5-10 years from now, perfectly good 410a units will not be able to get a recharge if needed and those that do (not talking RV roof units), will cost a arm and a leg, or spend 2 arms and 2 legs on a new system.
Sigh......progress!
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09-02-2021, 01:53 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2009 34' Panamerica
2005 28' Classic
Still
, in the thick of it
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 677
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Bummer....rental house I just put in a new HVAC and it was 410a. Not like I had a choice, but was thinking, great, I can keep this one 20 years like the last one, but sounds like if I get into trouble 7-8 years from now (which may very well be the case as you pointed out based on construction), it'll either cost me a lot more or maybe further down, not even be able to service...luckily I scored a full tank of 410a just in case, so I guess just the hardware needs to hopefully last.
My R-22 units at home are loud, and nowhere near as efficient, but I have a couple of tanks of the R-22 and hopefully they can keep chugging along for a few more years. Would hate to put in another 410a if it's gonna be phased out like R-12 and R-22 has been.
As for Thor, yea I still think they are hands off, but I do think that when it comes to allocation with this new acquisition, I'm pretty sure they will have a say in that area, and possibly a firm one, now more than ever.
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09-02-2021, 02:30 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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I have been waiting for some automobile manufactirer to say "what the heck, why CAN'T we get some nice supplier to make at least our most critical circuit boards HERE... in Detroit or Cincinnati or Pittsburgh, or any rust belt town in the USA. Cost more? What does it cost to have 12,000 trucks waiting for parts.
Dinosaur boards may only be able to meet 3% of the demand initially, but that will improve almost every subsequent week.
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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09-02-2021, 03:39 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2019 27' International
Western NC
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foiled Again
I have been waiting for some automobile manufactirer to say "what the heck, why CAN'T we get some nice supplier to make at least our most critical circuit boards HERE... in Detroit or Cincinnati or Pittsburgh, or any rust belt town in the USA. Cost more? What does it cost to have 12,000 trucks waiting for parts.
Dinosaur boards may only be able to meet 3% of the demand initially, but that will improve almost every subsequent week.
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The issue is chips .. cost to build a chip factory is a few Billion $$.
__________________
2023 Van Leigh Vilano 320GK
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape” SOLD
2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
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09-02-2021, 03:52 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2021 33FB Classic
2019 30' Flying Cloud
Katy
, Texas
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDNC
The issue is chips .. cost to build a chip factory is a few Billion $$.
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No. The real issue is intellectual property. Anyone with deep pockets could build a semiconductor fab facility, but that doesn't mean they have the rights to produce the "chips" required for these applications. It only takes one entity in the myriad of patent holders to gunk up the works. The current semiconductor shortage is much more insidious than most people realize, as there are vested parties who profit more from the supply constraints than they would if there were abundant production capability. It will take rewriting the regulatory framework to tame the profiteers that are using unconstrained capitalism (i.e. monopolistic behaviors) to create this predicament.
__________________
2021 Classic 33
2020 GMC 3500HD Duramax AT4
ProPride 3P
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09-03-2021, 07:41 AM
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#13
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Hi
Moving away from the tin foil hat crew ... eliminate property rights ... not a good idea.
The semiconductor industry went over to a "fabless model" decades ago. It has worked well in terms of getting cheap chips to market quickly and keeping the world supplied with those chips. (at least compared to anything else we've done).
A ton of work goes into a chip up front. It gets recovered over the years. The same is true of a fab, big money up front and very slow recovery of that money. Separating those two cash hogs made things a lot more rational.
Then came the virus.
All the auto / RV outfits and their suppliers cancel orders left and right. They have plant shutdowns for who knows how long. That stuff with 32 week lead times ... cancel the orders. Things turn around. A year later they place the orders. Your chips will be to you in 48 weeks.
Why 48 weeks? lead times moved out. The computer industry went crazy in the mean time. They gobbled up every bit of fab capacity out there.
Welcome to the semiconductor industry as it has functioned for the last 50 years. Boom and bust follow each other in a cycle that goes on and on and on. The main drivers are swinging demand ( computer / phone industry is up or down) and the many years plus many many billions to build a fab ...
Bob
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09-03-2021, 10:19 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma
, California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,343
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Maybe Airstream will switch over to Maxxfans for ventilation with this move. If they do they's better redesign the control boards to deal with 15Volt swings (think lithium). I love my Maxxfans but had to replace the controller boards and add a DC-DC converter on the fan power feed to limit the voltage to <13 volts which is what their support center said was the limit. - Brad
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09-04-2021, 06:35 AM
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#15
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTrouper
Maybe Airstream will switch over to Maxxfans for ventilation with this move. If they do they's better redesign the control boards to deal with 15Volt swings (think lithium). I love my Maxxfans but had to replace the controller boards and add a DC-DC converter on the fan power feed to limit the voltage to <13 volts which is what their support center said was the limit. - Brad
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Hi
A very conventional lead acid system can put 14.5V on the "12V" wire. I suspect the support canter person had just made it back from a six martini lunch .....
Bob
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09-04-2021, 02:06 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma
, California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
A very conventional lead acid system can put 14.5V on the "12V" wire. I suspect the support canter person had just made it back from a six martini lunch .....
Bob
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Yeah Bob, I still use LifeLine AGMs but my Blue Sky solar charger hits a near 15V spike every morning (I leave the system powered in storage). The tech said that the board protects itself by limiting operation above 13 volts but that over time the protection circuit fails. I've replaced two boards (they sent one for free, I have (2) Maxxfans) and then added the DC-DC converter which limits the fan circuit to 12.8VDC. Since then, no issues. The failure mode was first intermittent operation and then erratic operation and then no operation over 6 months after fan installation. Erratic= Some functions fail like thermostat operation or reverse or fans found on when visiting storage.
Attached is my voltage at the battery readout in July. Note the 14VDC+ spike every morning. My tracker is on the the fan circuit and it always reports 12.8 volts whenever I check it.
Brad
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09-05-2021, 07:09 AM
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#17
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTrouper
Yeah Bob, I still use LifeLine AGMs but my Blue Sky solar charger hits a near 15V spike every morning (I leave the system powered in storage). The tech said that the board protects itself by limiting operation above 13 volts but that over time the protection circuit fails. I've replaced two boards (they sent one for free, I have (2) Maxxfans) and then added the DC-DC converter which limits the fan circuit to 12.8VDC. Since then, no issues. The failure mode was first intermittent operation and then erratic operation and then no operation over 6 months after fan installation. Erratic= Some functions fail like thermostat operation or reverse or fans found on when visiting storage.
Attached is my voltage at the battery readout in July. Note the 14VDC+ spike every morning. My tracker is on the the fan circuit and it always reports 12.8 volts whenever I check it.
Brad
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Hi
If the solar *is* actually doing that at the battery terminals, it suggests something isn't quite right in there. First step would be to grab a multimeter and get a "second opinion".
If your issue with the fans is indeed "normal" they will be seeing a *ton* of phone calls over the next couple of years. Designing a board to run at normal RV voltages is not all that hard .... this is something they could re-do without going to crazy.
Bob
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09-15-2021, 12:45 PM
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#18
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3 Rivet Member
2021 16' Caravel
2022 23' Globetrotter
Callao
, Virginia
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTrouper
I've replaced two boards (they sent one for free, I have (2) Maxxfans) and then added the DC-DC converter which limits the fan circuit to 12.8VDC.
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I've read many posts about DC-DC converters being used to make the current running from the TV alternator charge trailer lithium batteries correctly, and to prevent the lithium batteries from sending current to the TV batteries when the TV motor is not running. Are you referring to the same sort of DC-DC installation, or is this something different?
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09-15-2021, 03:17 PM
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#19
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari SS SE
1969 27' Overlander
Martinez
, Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 759
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Airstream would like to switch all of their models to the Coleman AC because they are rather unhappy with Dometic for a variety of reasons.
__________________
Matt
WBCCI # 3518
TAC# GA-6
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09-16-2021, 07:30 AM
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#20
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmrice
I've read many posts about DC-DC converters being used to make the current running from the TV alternator charge trailer lithium batteries correctly, and to prevent the lithium batteries from sending current to the TV batteries when the TV motor is not running. Are you referring to the same sort of DC-DC installation, or is this something different?
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Hi
He's running a converter to the fan. The idea is that the fan always sees 12V and never gets an over voltage.
Bob
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