the definitive euro, asian and international model thread...

[SmokelessJoe]

Thanks, 2air’. The axle plate simply bolts on through the 4 holes. Ingenious.

I couldn’t make the pictures posted before “zoom” so couldn’t catch this important detail.

Sergei

[safari57]

Thanks Sergei

See what happens when one is trapped in the 50's to 70's stuff?

Merry Christmas,
Barry

[safari62]

Thanks 2Air for all the info. Please keep us informed. I hope these new idea come stateside on newer models.
Gary

[Saddletramp]

Much issue has been made about Airstream not balancing brake drums. If you refer to post 40, you will notice in the view of the brake drum with no wheel attached that there is a ground relief on the shoulder of the drum. Looks like a balancing operation performed in a location least affecting the hoop strength of the drum! I will bet they are balanced.

Saddletramp

[Tim A.]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

sergei...

i'm no engineer, but it looks like the main frame rails are slotted from the bottom side...

and the axles have a small section of rail that matches the main rail Z pattern...

so the axle plates slip into the slot, just outside the frame section...

then they are bolted together in 4-5 places per side...

here's some zoomed pix that may help, open each and enlarge for a better view...

cheers
2air'

and bpw has a website which may contain schematics and other useful info, it's a BIG company...BPW | Bergische Achsen KG

For those who hope Airstream might move to a galvanized frame in the US, it is probably worth considering whether or not there is a US manufacturer Airstream could go to for such a product. BPW/Bergische Achsen KG is a large company making many products other than trailer frames and axles and it has strong competition (such as AL-KO Kober AG) in that field. Also, heavy zinc plating on many products has long been standard practice in Europe which means that there are many companies which can do that plating. Having the frame in pieces makes the plating process much easier because the pieces are smaller than a complete frame. You can imagine trying to plate a complete 34' frame.

For those who hope for the foam-cored floor to come here, please note that the outside parts of the sandwich appear to be plywood. I happen to be a fan of good plywood, but that sandwich material would have many of the same problems we associate with US Airstream floors. In addition, there could be supplier problems. The US, in contrast to Europe, seems to have fewer manufacturers of such specialty products.

[craftsman]

The problem with hot dip galvanizing a completed frame is potential warping and twisting. The new frame for my Series 111 Landrover build was hot dipped galvanized. Some of the best galvanized utility and horse trailers in the world ( in my opinion) are made by a U.K. company :Ifor Williams

[jurjen]

I'm from the Netherlands and have been reading this thread with interest.
I have a Dethleffs trailer that is made in Germany.
It has an ALKO chassis like the BPW (bolted and galvanised).
The floor has the sandwich construction (plywood/styrofoam/plywood).
My trailer is from 1991 and looks like new from the underside.
IMO this is a very reliable contruction and was even wondering why A/S is not using it. Now I read that the Euro A/S is using the BPW chassis.
I have read through some threads here about floor rot/tail sag etc.
I think the way the chassis is made on a A/S is asking for problems.
Damp and water will get in between the belly pan and the floor and the chassis (I think you guys call them frame rails) will start to rot.

Mind you: I like the Airstream very much and must add that not many caravans in Europe live as long as an A/S, but there is another reason for that...

[safari62]

Originally Posted by jurjen

I'm from the Netherlands and have been reading this thread with interest.
I have a Dethleffs trailer that is made in Germany.
It has an ALKO chassis like the BPW (bolted and galvanised).
The floor has the sandwich construction (plywood/styrofoam/plywood).
My trailer is from 1991 and looks like new from the underside.
IMO this is a very reliable contruction and was even wondering why A/S is not using it. Now I read that the Euro A/S is using the BPW chassis.
I have read through some threads here about floor rot/tail sag etc.
I think the way the chassis is made on a A/S is asking for problems.
Damp and water will get in between the belly pan and the floor and the chassis (I think you guys call them frame rails) will start to rot.

Mind you: I like the Airstream very much and must add that not many caravans in Europe live as long as an A/S, but there is another reason for that...

Hello Jerjen
I'm glad that you are interested in in the evolution of the American Airstream into a lighter, stronger and even longer lasting product then what is made today. Owning a vintage trailer I know of it's strengths and weaknesses. Mostly the former.
I am not so sure about the newer models durability and vintage potential, but the changes in the frames and flooring of the Euro models give me hope changes are on the way.
So want are some of the longevity problems of "Caravans" over there?

[jurjen]

We do not really have many old caravans. I will try to give a little history:
After WW2 Europe was poor, so not much happening here in the fourties and fifties. I the sixties things were looking better and everybody had a job and people started buying cars. These were small cars like the VW beetle, small Opels (GM) and Fords. Engine capacties around 1300cc and 40 to 50HP.
Not really suited for a big trailer. So small caravans and pop-up trailers became popular. At the end of the sixties Spain and France became a very popular destination for the summer holidays. This was a 2000 to 3000 mile round trip. So we needed light small caravans. Here's a picture of a beetle with an Eriba Puck:


The Eriba was built to last (a bit like the A/S, but without the belly pan and isolation). Many of them survived, but the caravans are small and not suited for today's wishes. The caravan size grew over the years as the passenger cars got heavier and more powerfull. Was the cabin lenght for the caravans in the sixties about 10', it grew to 12' in the seventies, to 14' in the eighties.
Today we are at 16' to 17'. We still like to keep the dry weight as low as possible. Dry weight is about 2650lbs for the 16' caravan.
Popular towing vehicles are passenger cars with a 2.0 ltr turbo diesels.
This development shows why there is little interest in older caravans: they are to small for every use, so most of them are scrapped.

[safari57]

JurJen

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your background on the evolution of European caravans. It helped me put everything into perspective.

Good luck with your search for your Airstream.

Barry

[safari62]

Originally Posted by jurjen

We do not really have many old caravans. I will try to give a little history:
After WW2 Europe was poor, so not much happening here in the fourties and fifties. I the sixties things were looking better and everybody had a job and people started buying cars. These were small cars like the VW beetle, small Opels (GM) and Fords. Engine capacties around 1300cc and 40 to 50HP.
Not really suited for a big trailer. So small caravans and pop-up trailers became popular. At the end of the sixties Spain and France became a very popular destination for the summer holidays. This was a 2000 to 3000 mile round trip. So we needed light small caravans. Here's a picture of a beetle with an Eriba Puck:


The Eriba was built to last (a bit like the A/S, but without the belly pan and isolation). Many of them survived, but the caravans are small and not suited for today's wishes. The caravan size grew over the years as the passenger cars got heavier and more powerfull. Was the cabin lenght for the caravans in the sixties about 10', it grew to 12' in the seventies, to 14' in the eighties.
Today we are at 16' to 17'. We still like to keep the dry weight as low as possible. Dry weight is about 2650lbs for the 16' caravan.
Popular towing vehicles are passenger cars with a 2.0 ltr turbo diesels.
This development shows why there is little interest in older caravans: they are to small for every use, so most of them are scrapped.

Excellent explanation. I always think first that the roads are old, small and then the cost of fuel is higher. But your historical recap of the last sixty years as it applies to caravanning (travel trailers) is very interesting. Wally Byam was very interested in the European market and the products coming out in the late fifties and early sixties.
The American trend towards larger is better does not always make it a better product. With fuel cost rising daily and vehicles becoming smaller with better fuel mileage capabilities, the design of the travel trailer must follow this trend.
This thread shows that Airstream is looking forward to the future at least for the foreign market.
Gary

[jurjen]

I think I found my ideal A/S already, it is the Euro A/S 534 (bit pricey though).
Here is a picture and floor plan:

CampoWorld maakt vrije tijd tot een belevenis!

My excuses for the Dutch language.

Regards, Jurjen

[safari62]

Originally Posted by jurjen

I think I found my ideal A/S already, it is the Euro A/S 534 (bit pricey though).
Here is a picture and floor plan:

CampoWorld maakt vrije tijd tot een belevenis!

My excuses for the Dutch language.

Regards, Jurjen

Excellent choice, Jerjen.
Maybe with the sinking value of the US Dollar Airstreams will be more affordable over there. Nice floor plans and modern materials. Good luck.
Gary

[remcolent]

I don't even want to get close to a euro airstream.
A airstream is a icon, making it a euro airstream is like puting a japan made diesel in a cadillac.
A other bad example are the US cars build for our european market.
The lack the comfort of a real US full sice car and they don't handle like the european cars , so you get a uncomfortable car that handles like a fried egg in a non stick frieingpan.

[jurjen]

I don't want to start any old/new/euro A/S discussion here and don't misunderstand me: if I had time and money I would buy the oldest (13 section roof) A/S I could find. But I don't see anything wrong in improving an existing design. I will give you an example. If A/S had been improving the frame/floor design 25 years ago: you would wake up tomorrow and look under your 32' excella (from 1986) and find that the galvanized frame rails were still looking the same as the day it left the factory.

[safari62]

Originally Posted by remcolent

I don't even want to get close to a euro airstream.
A airstream is a icon, making it a euro airstream is like puting a japan made diesel in a cadillac.
A other bad example are the US cars build for our european market.
The lack the comfort of a real US full sice car and they don't handle like the european cars , so you get a uncomfortable car that handles like a fried egg in a non stick frieingpan.

Remcolent,
What is wrong with using the best from both worlds? New ideas about lighter weight and better floor materials are needed now and the euro model are using them. Ask any Airstream owner with a rusty frame. From photos of the new frames it looks like they are still being assembled in Ohio (The Mothership).
And I will take a Japanese diesel anytime in any vehicle.
Gary

[2airishuman]

the global expansion continues...

a/s has recently added a new dealer,

DOWN UNDER

which is pretty cool.

the basic info is "swagman aust pty ltd" queensland, au.

it looks like they manufacture BIG mohos for the home market...

Swagman Motorhomes - HOME

and are doing some innovative stuff with carbon fiber-kevlar one piece skins...

http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/atta...s3_swagman.pdf

and have partnered with a chinese company on product manufacture...

Swagman Australia’s ‘Next Generation’ Motorhomes

very interesting.

i would be fun to have a 'stream and go for a long trip way down south...

cheers
2air'

[brunoffrance]

Originally Posted by remcolent

I don't even want to get close to a euro airstream.
A airstream is a icon, making it a euro airstream is like puting a japan made diesel in a cadillac.
A other bad example are the US cars build for our european market.
The lack the comfort of a real US full sice car and they don't handle like the european cars , so you get a uncomfortable car that handles like a fried egg in a non stick frieingpan.

I totaly agree with you; No imitation, only the genuine one with all the american stuffs that make the Airstream , unique.
About galvanizing, if,it was THE solution against rust, all 'ld be galvanized...
Sure it's really a progress but parts or pieces are rarely well galvanized just see the security rails along the roads.... In fact, it's an economic question... if steel and metal no more rust after galvanizing, what become their production in the world; don't forget we are in a consumption economy.
The more difficult is to plan the just no-rusting time that make the consumer
not angry and ready to buy again...

Curiously, the Wally Byam vision was not in this consumption economy as the most of the trailers built from the beginning , is always on the roads... Was he wrong ? so Airstream is always alive today.

Bruno.

[safari62]

the global expansion continues...

a/s has recently added a new dealer,

DOWN UNDER

which is pretty cool.

the basic info is "swagman aust pty ltd" queensland, au.

it looks like they manufacture BIG mohos for the home market...2air

Swagman Motorhomes - HOME

I see they also rent. Now if Swagman can build up a small fleet of rentals to increase the visibility of the silver product down under. This would save us all that crane work with units available for rent!
Now do you think these will be us or euro models? They have higher mileage toyota diesel and land rover type vehicles that would make a great pairing for a outback camping experience
Bruno....Maybe thor can start dumping the us models in France that are not selling here. The exchange rate must help?
Then airstream can sell euro models here

[Pschoerrn]

I´ll probably won't make friends with this posting (in the European side of the web ) but I think that the new euro streams are the best Airstream/Thor has brought to the market in the last years!! They point into the right direction of lightweight trailers that can be towed by economical friendlier cars, without loosing much of the luxury stuff we need on the road and without loosing the iconic shape and the history of an Airstream.
Would I buy one?? Sure if only I had 75,000 Euro. So I have to stay with our beloved historical 1971 Ambassador...
One thing could be better (and I think it will come in a soon to come future) and that is a longer and wider body for continental europe and maybe also for the home market of north america.

BTW: Bruno, why are you against the galvanized, light weight frame?? Nearly all european trailer frames are galvanized and it works!! So saying that the galvanized frames are not well done and nothing for Airstreams is like walking on really thin ice...
Our Ambassador frame is rusty and rotten and we'll have to do some really hard work to it - ok, it's 37 years old and the shell is still great, but we have a 25 year old european (detleffs) trailer and the only thing that is still in great shape and not rotten is the galvanized frame!! So bringing together a aglvanized frame and the unique shell of an Airstream is one of the best things ever done for us - the Airstream community on planet earth!!


So, you may now throw stones at me...


Greets,

Bjoern