MPPT Solar and Lithium Question

[wulfraat]

Well if you have a multiplus coming then that’s a different story. You’ll want/need a new breaker box with sub panel. Let me know if you want info on how mine is wired.

[afk314]

This is such an excellent thread. Thanks to everyone for help so far.

I'll replace my stock WFCO inverter at the end of the season. I also want to get rid of the long lounge and put in a small desk so I'll take that project on as one piece. As some might remember, I have 300Ah Lithium, 500w Solar and victron gear. I'll also add a Venus at this point.

What I'd like to know is, at a high level, what is involved in putting in a new 3000VA MultiPlus? I want to run the AC (for short bursts) and the microwave and would LOVE all outlets to function from the inverter.

What I don't understand is what will need to happen to get this happening. Clearly, I will pull the converter (Progressive Dynamics) and need to replace the AC and DC panels that it integrates. But how about integrating the circuits that only run on shore power?

Again, if someone could explain it at a high-level, I'll figure out the rest. I just want to know the scope.

Thanks!
Adam

[wulfraat]

I’ll do a write up and post a wiring diagram this weekend if I can find the time. It’s not overly complicated but it takes time (man hours) and you need to be comfortable working with AC and DC wiring. It’s not plug in play - you basically have to re-wire the entire breaker box.

My install was so big / time consuming I outsourced it to Lew. He’s a total pro, does this every day, and for a fresh install it took him about 80 hours which included roof panels.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One of the most basic questions in one of these conversions is where to find the space to put things. We have a rear twin layout in our trailer. That eliminates the "put it under the queen bed up front" approach. In my case clearances very much have dictated a lot of what I have done. In a number of spots, things barely fit. They still have ventilation, but in one axis or the other ... not much clearance.

======

So: who makes a breaker box with a sub panel that will drop into the existing hole in the wall? ( or a sub panel that will drop into where the old converter was? ). If there is a "no think" option, that would move things along. I can go find this or that at Lowes and do a bunch of work to fit it. That's not going to happen any time soon

Bob

[pdavitt]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi
So: who makes a breaker box with a sub panel that will drop into the existing hole in the wall? ( or a sub panel that will drop into where the old converter was? ). If there is a "no think" option, that would move things along. I can go find this or that at Lowes and do a bunch of work to fit it. That's not going to happen any time soon

Bob

Bob,

Not sure what your actual size requirements are, but marine AC and DC panels are very small for their functionality. I would go on Blue Sea Systems website and browse their panel offerings. They also have a panel design tool called "Panel Wizard" where you can design what ever you need. The URL is: https://panelwizard.bluesea.com/
You must create an account, but it is worth it.

The major drawback to marine panels is cost. They are built with the highest quality components and meet ABYC and US Coast Guard standards.

Just a thought,
Pat

[wulfraat]

I’ve got a power control center by progressive dynamics in my trailer. One for AC breakers and a smaller one for DC fuses.

Lew made for a neat and tidy install by mounting to a black laminated board cut to fit the space.

The old power center and converter from the factory was ripped out and tossed in the recycling bin....

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The 12V side of things very quickly gets buried in the Firefly system on this trailer ( = almost all the circuits are protected ( breakers ) and switched by it ). The 120V is done by the usual WFCO panel with a converter under it. The thought is to put a 120V sub panel into the area the converter used to sit in. Then back feed that sub from the transfer switch in the Multi .... I'll take a look at some of the ideas and see how they fit.

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

After some measuring and fiddling, I'm better off fabricating something to fit in the opening then to mess with the pre-made stuff. I've already got the neutral and ground bars in the existing box. The only thing I actually need are a few push reset breakers fastened to a plate of some sort. Still need to fabricate that so not going to happen soon ....

Bob

[wulfraat]

Here is the diagram for wiring up a 50A sub panel that is fed by a pass-through inverter like the multiplus. Credit goes to AM Solar....

I don’t have a transfer switch in my setup for a generator... not really needed....

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by wulfraat

Here is the diagram for wiring up a 50A sub panel that is fed by a pass-through inverter like the multiplus. Credit goes to AM Solar....

I don’t have a transfer switch in my setup for a generator... not really needed....

Hi

One key point on that diagram is the need for multiple neutral bars in the system.

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok, so the cables to the old inverter don't *quite* go the way I thought / remembered. Rather than being fully under all the way, they go into a sub floor / pan area before popping up under the sink.

So, here's the question for those who have been there / done that:

Did the fine people at the factory put any clamps on the cable *inside* that pan area? Put another way, did the wires go on before the pan? I haven't been to the factory so I can only guess at the order of assembly. If there is some clamping under there, I'm not going to blind snake much larger / stiffer cables through it ..... Pulling the stabilizer jacks and drilling a lot of rivets to get that pan off is a bit more than I'm up for at the moment.

Thoughts anyone?

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Quick question:

Is it normal for a MultiPlus to have a bulged front panel, loose standoffs rattling around in it and various circuit boards pushed up against each other?

Guessing that it's not normal, this one is headed back to Amazon. I'll drive down to PKYS tomorrow and pick up another one. At least that one I can check before I leave the store.

====

The unit .... errr .... fits ... errr ... who measured this ??? . The key point is that the metric dimensions (which are slightly outside the inch dimensions) apparently rule. The numbers on the mechanical drawing supersede the ones on the spec sheet. ( = bigger ..).

The unit has a top cover over the fans. Great for vertical mounting in the open. Not needed for horizontal mounting ( at least that's my claim). Pull that and shove it a bit that way and ... wow ... at least ten thou clearance !!!

So much fun !!!!

Bob

[fran&frank]

Bob I also mounted my Multiplus horizontally and took that top cover off--Frank

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by fran&frank

Bob I also mounted my Multiplus horizontally and took that top cover off--Frank

Hi

Gee ... looks like yours came with the (apparently optional) flat front panel as opposed to the rounded version sold on Amazon

I can see no obvious reason why the unit would not cool significantly better with the cover removed. It should give you better airflow. The fans have wire covers on them, so no issue there ....

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Again with the double post ....

Got back with the MultiPlus. This one, like the one in the picture above does *not* have the curved front panel. Peter was nice enough to pull it out of the box at the store to double check. Nice guy dealing with an insane customer named Bob .

We talked over what I'm doing. He suggested that the Battery Protect with it's 220A continuous / 600A 30 second ratings might not be the best thing to put in series with the MultiPlus. He also mentioned that there is some programing involved in getting the Multi into absolute minimum current configuration.

So, I have it here on the bench in stock condition. It has never been plugged into AC (here on the bench). Back fed off of a simple lab supply, it pulls less than 1 ma when fully shut down. I'd get a better number but my cheap lab supply current limits slow and the fuse on the 400 ma range on the Fluke blows fast. ..... off to go fuse shopping ...

At least in this configuration, I see no need to get the Battery Protect involved with shutting off the Multi. It may pull a bit more as it cycles through various states. Assuming I can get it back to this state in storage ( and that is unproven at this point ) it will not do anything at all to significantly drain the batteries in storage.

Poking around inside the box, it's pretty well built. I would not put one on a helicopter or any other airborne platform. For bouncing around in an Airstream, laying on it's back .... looks fine.

There is a substantial fuse on the output / input of the 12V side of the Multi. Advice is to put another one at the battery. AS didn't go that way so ... hmmm ... At least there is no need to keep their fuse at the inverter end. Gee ... I seem to have this surplus fuse holder sitting here and need a fuse at the battery ... how convenient

Still need to work out the fuse / breaker on the AC output side of the inverter. The stock inverter had a built in fuse ( breaker on the newer ones ). I may do something bogus with a pushbutton reset Blue Sea breaker. ( bogus = no full enclosure / buried under a drawer)

Off to play with USB gizmos under Windows .... oh joy !!! It would be so much easier if there was an OS-X driver / app ....

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok, so 5+ hours later we have a trivial firmware update process complete .... grrrrr ....

Some hints:

The Multi runs *only* off battery when doing a firmware update. If AC power is connected, it will not update.

The Multi appears to be totally dead when in the proper mode, no LED's on or any other indication of life. If any lights are on, it's not going to update. No relays clunking either ....

The proper "on" setting of the switch is the "inverter on" setting. This *seems* like it would put 120V in various places .... not so much.

Yes, the doc's could have been a bit more clear on all this. I probably could have called Peter and gotten it straight *much* more quickly than by trial and error. Updating two Windows PC's for hours on end did not speed things up at all ( = common recommendation is to try another PC)

Somehow I had visions of getting more done today .....

Bob

[daleyocum]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Ok, so 5+ hours later we have a trivial firmware update process complete .... grrrrr ....

Some hints:

The Multi runs *only* off battery when doing a firmware update. If AC power is connected, it will not update.

The Multi appears to be totally dead when in the proper mode, no LED's on or any other indication of life. If any lights are on, it's not going to update. No relays clunking either ....

The proper "on" setting of the switch is the "inverter on" setting. This *seems* like it would put 120V in various places .... not so much.

Yes, the doc's could have been a bit more clear on all this. I probably could have called Peter and gotten it straight *much* more quickly than by trial and error. Updating two Windows PC's for hours on end did not speed things up at all ( = common recommendation is to try another PC)

Somehow I had visions of getting more done today .....

Bob

Your fun time updating the Multi are the same as mine. I had no end of trouble getting it to recognize the VEBus to USB dongle finally fining it worked in the outside VEBus port and the the one closer to the interior.

Pro tip for those following in our footsteps: If any vendor offers to program and update the Multiplus for you, consider seriously paying them the extra $100 to do so! I seem to recall both AM Solar and Battleborn offering this service. It is NOT fun doing this yourself.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The update it's self isn't that big a deal. The instructions ( and videos ) are way less than they should be. The feedback from the program is 100% useless. There are no troubleshooting charts to get you through it. Even a very good dealer may not be on top of it. What the world needs is a better document telling how to do it. Setup is everything in this case.

=====

After the fun with the firmware, I went out to try pulling some wire. Turns out that there *is* some sort of constriction about half way through the pan area. One piece of 2/0 will go through, two pieces ... nope. Amazon will have some smaller stuff here Friday. I'll probably spend part of tomorrow trying to dig out one of my USB fiber optic gizmos. It would be nice to know what I'm actually bashing into.

====

So here's actually a real question that might be answered:

There are all these cute "assistants" you can load on the Multi. I did a quick read on each of them. None popped out as an obvious goodie. Did I miss something?

Bob

[steverino]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi
=====

After the fun with the firmware, I went out to try pulling some wire. Turns out that there *is* some sort of constriction about half way through the pan area. One piece of 2/0 will go through, two pieces ... nope. Amazon will have some smaller stuff here Friday. I'll probably spend part of tomorrow trying to dig out one of my USB fiber optic gizmos. It would be nice to know what I'm actually bashing into.

====

Bob

Following this with intense interest, as I will probably be doing the same upgrade at some point. Are you routing from the inverter under the galley forward to under the lounge, or through the lateral chase and forward on the street side of the unit?

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by steverino

Following this with intense interest, as I will probably be doing the same upgrade at some point. Are you routing from the inverter under the galley forward to under the lounge, or through the lateral chase and forward on the street side of the unit?

Hi

What I'm pulling right now is from the old inverter location under the sink. The cable runs forward past the steps. It then exits the pan and routes along the frame to the old battery box. The hole into the electrical space under the sofa is in the same vicinity. I *really* don't want to pull the bottom off he pan .....

The cable from the old converter runs laterally from under the wardrobe. Effectively it starts in the same open space as the inverter, just further back. It heads over to the use / store relay under a dinette seat. A second cable runs from there ( through the wall ??) to the same electrical space under the recliner. I'm not real sure there is a practical way to re-route that cable.

I suspect that if I can stretch the now unused converter cable far enough, I'll tie it into the Multi. It's longer so no issue with current. It might be enough to make a difference.

Lots of fun !!!

Bob