RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-10-2018, 11:22 AM   #41
4 Rivet Member
 
2017 27' International
Lake Havasu City , Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 308
Not a hijack at all, Alan. Living a comfortable lifestyle while dry camping in beautiful surroundings, and doing it without the need for obnoxious generator operation, is a perfect reason to spend money on solar/battery upgrades.

Ken wrote, "We rarely boondock." Those three words tell me that he has no need for high-powered upgrades of the kind we're talking about here, and that's fine. I, on the other hand, boondock year round, and I know a lot of other folks who live the way I do. For people like us, adequate solar and battery capacity is worth every penny it costs, because it gives us the freedom to go anywhere... and let's face it, the best scenery is rarely found in full-hookup campgrounds.
Paprika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
daleyocum's Avatar
 
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

Ok something is very wrong there. The BMV712 should always be reading same / same as the MPPT ( and a multimeter for that matter ). If it's not, then either there is a wiring error or it's broke.

What the Venus and other Victron smart boxes do is get their BMS system running. Without a central brain, their batteries don't have the full set of smarts to do the job. That's not a knock on Victron, it's simply a design decision they made. Their batteries have been out on the market for a while now. Whatever they did does work.

I have yet to see anybody ( from Battle Born or otherwise ) explain why cycling the batteries a lot is better than keeping them up around 14V. In fact, when pressed on the point, their response seems to be "yup, that works fine".

So yes, this is a bit murky.

Bob
Yes, I thought I was being clever and connecting the positive feed for the battery monitor/shunt downstream from the Use/Store relay. I haven’t started probing with a multimeter yet but it looks like there is a .6v drop between what the MPPT sees pre-relay and what the BMV sees post relay. I’ll know for sure with the multimeter whether it’s a bad BMV, bad connections, or there’s a regulator/diode/? in AS’s circuit I wasn’t expecting.

Once the Venus gets installed Tuesday I’ll change this wiring anyway since it will need the BMS active all the time. I was just trying to reduce parasitic load by not running the BMS when we weren’t in the trailer to care.

That voltage drop will indeed need more investigation.
daleyocum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #43
4 Rivet Member
 
2017 27' International
Lake Havasu City , Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 308
"it looks like there is a .6v drop between what the MPPT sees pre-relay and what the BMV sees post relay."

0.6 V is exactly the voltage drop across a silicon diode, as I recall. Hmmm. ;-)
Paprika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #44
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 44
Hello everybody,
Sorry I somehow missed this thread as it developed. I appreciate all the input here about our batteries our partners at Victron and also lithium in general. Let me see if I can help here a bit.

I have read through the thread. There is a lot of good information that has been shared by everyone involved.

Lets talk about charging in general before we dive into specifics.

• Acceptable range 14.2-14.6 volts on Bulk and Absorb
• Absorption time should be about ½ hour per 100 ah of battery capacity
• No Equalize needed, but if you can set it yourself, use 14.4-14.6 volts, this will help rebulk certain devices that need to get below 12.6 volts to rebulk. You can use the manual equalize if set properly to initiate a bulk charge
• Float 13.6 or lower is great, you can even run a solar charge controller that is not settable at a 13.8 volt setting. The confusion about not needing a float is a great point, thanks for bringing it up. We do not require the batteries, but since so many devices have this setting already, we ask you to set below the natural float level of the lifepo4 batteries.

Starting from the top, You can monitor the charge controller and BMV's from bluetooth if it’s not built-in you can the dongle, very easy to use and easy to make changes.
The color control is great too, but its not for everyone, most people will just use the bluetooth to monitor.

More about charging. It’s hard to give the same answer for all equipment as most converters, inverter chargers and charge controllers are a little different. So we always try to give ranges that way, you can see if your device is acceptable. That is why some people have a bit different answer, depends on what device for charging you called about.

When it comes to converters you have a couple of options that come stock for lead acid, usually Progressive Dynamics or WFCO. These units will charge our lithium batteries, but not as fast or as complete as we would like. Long story short, some customers don’t mind this and they don’t want to change the converter. We can help you decide. You can charge faster and 100% with the Progressive Dynamics Lithium upgrade units. They run at 14.6 volts all the time.

Inverter Charger – these again are all a bit different. But most of them have a setting or some custom settings that work well with our batteries. The Victron is very programmable and works great too. Magnum works fine also, so does Xantrex, if you have the remote to program them. There are few nuances with these two later units. But since it was mentioned here let’s talk Victron Multiplus.

Programming Screens
• “Inverter tab” Change the low voltage shutdown to 11.5 volts
• “Charger Tab”
o Check Lithium Ion batteries box
o Curve “Fixed”
o Absorption Voltage 14.4 to 14.6 – Your choice
o Float Voltage 13.6 volts or lower
o Charge current (for the multiplus 2k set to 80A)
o Absorption time (use 1/2hour per 100ah of battery)

This should do it for this unit

Charge controllers

As with every other device group that we have discussed there are a lot of options, lets stick to Victron here since that is the one we are talking about.

• Absorption voltage: 14.6 volts (acceptable range is 14.4 to 14.6 volts)
• Absorption Time: 0.5 hours per 100ah of LiFePO4 battery (for example if you have 2 -100ah batteries select 1 hour.)
• Float Voltage: 13.5 volts (13.6 volts or lower is acceptable for LiFePO4 batteries)
• Equalization voltage: 14.4 volts (you do not need to equalize Lithium ion, you will have equalize turned off, but incase it ever runs a cycle the batteries will be fine at this voltage)
• Temperature Compensation: should be disabled Lithium Deep Cycle batteries do not need to be compensated, leave this off.
• Low Temperature cut-off – Our Battle Born Batteries have low temperature charging protection built into the battery, its monitored by our Battery Management system which is also built in. You can leave this off too, some other brands do not protect your battery against damage from low temp charging, we do, we have got you covered.

I am happy to help in anyway possible. Let me know thanks.
battlebornli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 05:41 PM   #45
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by battlebornli View Post
Hello everybody,
Sorry I somehow missed this thread as it developed. I appreciate all the input here about our batteries our partners at Victron and also lithium in general. Let me see if I can help here a bit.

Since you are partnering with Victron, have there been any discussions about making your Batteries/BMS compatible with Victron's VE-CAN (CAN-Bus) architecture? The reason I am asking is that I like Victrons recent direction to allow the batteries BMS to control the charge current/voltage for both MPPT Charge Controllers and Multiplus/Quattro Inverter/Chargers.


Ya'll are building a great reputation, keep up the good work.



Thanks,
Pat
pdavitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 05:43 PM   #46
Rivet Master
 
daleyocum's Avatar
 
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 985
Thanks so much Battlebornli. This kind of support is one of the reasons I went with your batteries.

Those settings all jive with what I had set my system to. It sounds like you don’t recommend people floating at the the same 14.5v that they bulk charge at as a way to get load support. There’s some confusion about what if anything your battery management system built into the batteries is doing with regards to overcharging.
daleyocum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 08:50 PM   #47
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 44
Dale

Thanks again for the feedback, we strive to help as many people understand LiFePO4 as possible.

The float question is always interesting. Technically LiFePO4 does not need to be put on float, which mostly in place to power the coach on shore power, or run some other load while keeping the batteries topped off.

There are so many components that have this built in, we recommend an acceptable level to “float” at eventhough its not required, everything out there has it. The components have not followed the market yet, but they will. So until then float at 13.6 or lower, works great.

On the overcharge question. Absolutely our BMS protects from overcharging, it will shut down. As a matter of fact it our BB10012 battery has been listed UL2054, not just the cells the entire pack. The testing for this UL listing requires abusive overcharging under extreme conditions.

Our pack is listed and has been run through rigorous scenarios. We have you covered on overcharging protection, its built in. That is why we recommend 14.4 to 14.6 volts for bulk and absorb charge cycles. This is ideal for balancing and you get much higher the BMS will shut down.
battlebornli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 08:53 PM   #48
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 44
Pat,
Thanks for reaching out.

We have a supplier partnership with Victron, we don't have any plans to use their can-bus. Our Built in BMS is much simpler for end users. But We Do Love their Products and support too!

Once you have these components dialed in, I don't see a need to change them, on the fly. But maybe you could email about the application you want to use this in? So I can understand what you want to accomplish.
battlebornli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 09:10 PM   #49
Vintage Only
 
1966 26' Overlander
1981 31' Excella Limited
1964 22' Safari
Ramona , California
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paprika View Post
Not a hijack at all, Alan. Living a comfortable lifestyle while dry camping in beautiful surroundings, and doing it without the need for obnoxious generator operation, is a perfect reason to spend money on solar/battery upgrades.

Ken wrote, "We rarely boondock." Those three words tell me that he has no need for high-powered upgrades of the kind we're talking about here, and that's fine. I, on the other hand, boondock year round, and I know a lot of other folks who live the way I do. For people like us, adequate solar and battery capacity is worth every penny it costs, because it gives us the freedom to go anywhere... and let's face it, the best scenery is rarely found in full-hookup campgrounds.
Thanks Paprika and others for responding with feedback on your motivations. I appreciate the variety of reasons and love to see what can be done. Once I retire we might spend more time off grid but for now other than taking PTO I have to have LTE coverage for internet and not stay too far from airports in case of biz travel. Probably at that point we might be able to leverage all of the bleeding edge installs. No doubt it will be at a lower cost. See paragraph below for a case in point.

Today I sold our 1963 Safari. The previous owner installed a plasma TV (maybe 20") back in 2002. I bought the trailer in 2012. Replaced it with a 24" LED model in 2012 and replaced that last week Plasma cost in 2002 =$1295.
LED in 2012: $225. Cost in 2018=$125!

Hope batteries follow a similar trend!
__________________
1966 Overlander, 1981 Excella II, 1964 Safari (for sale)
kenfconnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 11:40 PM   #50
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,700
Images: 1
Nice support here from battle born. In today’s world, customer experience and customer support are the differentiator!

Question for you while we have you on this topic - I’ve certainly read that the LiFePO4 chemistry does not like to be “kept at” or “floated at” or “stored at” 100% SOC if your goal is maximum lifespan. I’ve read for instance that they are best stored / used at between 50-90% SOC ... especially when storing a full battery at temperatures above 25C.

Can you comment on your testing / research / findings regarding battery lifespan / cycle life as it relates to constantly “floating” a LiFoPO4 battery at 100% until its time to actually use its reserves? Can you also comment regarding how battle born battery lifespan is affected by cycling between 100% and 20% SOC vs say 100% and 50% SOC?
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 11:40 PM   #51
Rivet Master
 
SSquared's Avatar
 
2013 25' FB Flying Cloud
Longmont , Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenfconnor View Post
Let me start by confessing to having a degree in physics (but many years in the past). So I love technology and have made a career based upon electronics. I own 3 vintage airstreams which we use frequently for many trips. As I read through this thread I am amazed about the complexity and cost of these battery/solar upgrades. We rarely boondock but when we do we dont seem to need a lot of juice so I have settled on a single 230 watt panel carried on my truck to top off 2 Costco deep cycle batteries. My wife would not be happy if we did not get to an RV park at least after 4-5 days anyway but the one panel seems to work fine (for mostly west coast camping). Just curious if those who are making these major investments really use the capacity or is it more of just a desire to see what the technology can do? I am not judging but beyond a few amps for the basics like lighting and water pump and perhaps a small inverter for occasional AC power like a microwave where is all this reserve capacity used?
Here's another perspective: Our need for power is mainly to run the furnace in the shoulder seasons. We've used as much as 70AH in a day, setting the thermostat at 68 in the evening and morning, 55 at night, and off during the day (That's including the other loads like lights, etc). With good sun, our 435 watts of panels can make way more than what we need.

But other times our panels are not enough. Last fall we were making only 20 to 40 AH per day with our panels, because we were under tree cover, in the shadow of a mountain, in Alberta, in late September. Examples like this drive the desire for "more power".
SSquared is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2018, 07:43 AM   #52
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by battlebornli View Post
Pat,
Thanks for reaching out.

We have a supplier partnership with Victron, we don't have any plans to use their can-bus. Our Built in BMS is much simpler for end users. But We Do Love their Products and support too!

Once you have these components dialed in, I don't see a need to change them, on the fly. But maybe you could email about the application you want to use this in? So I can understand what you want to accomplish.
Hi

Ok, let's ask this a different way.

Are the standard charger / converters sold by guys like Progressive Dynamics for lithium setups bad for Battle Born batteries? These chargers have no float setting at all. In a typical RV, the batteries spend a *lot* more than an hour or two looking at the output of the charger / converter .....

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 01:10 PM   #53
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9,121
Hi

Ok, so I did a little digging into the Venus. It's essentially a Beagle Bone repackaged by Victron.

https://github.com/victronenergy/venus/wiki/project-bbb

Since it's a full up Linux micro, the power reduction modes are a bit limited (at least compared to something smaller). It runs 210 ma off of 12V pretty much all the time.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...enus-GX-EN.pdf

If it's coordinating the Victron stuff, you are dumping about 5AH each day into the little beast.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 02:17 PM   #54
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

Ok, so I did a little digging into the Venus. It's essentially a Beagle Bone repackaged by Victron.

https://github.com/victronenergy/venus/wiki/project-bbb

Since it's a full up Linux micro, the power reduction modes are a bit limited (at least compared to something smaller). It runs 210 ma off of 12V pretty much all the time.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...enus-GX-EN.pdf

If it's coordinating the Victron stuff, you are dumping about 5AH each day into the little beast.

Bob

Bob,

I'm working on a system built around the CCGX and your post caused me to look at the CCGX power consumption. If you turn off the CCGX display it draws 140mA. I guess since the CCGX does not have any of the Venus GX tank monitoring circuitry, it draws less. However, if you set the display to full intensity, it draws 245mA.

Pat
pdavitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 02:42 PM   #55
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9,121
Hi

Based on the various threads on the Venus from the Victron guys, it has very different "guts" than the CCGX. I don't think either one was designed for "near zero drain". The BMV and the battery protect most certainly were designed that way. They get down into the 1 ma or less region when idle.

At what point does this become "doesn't matter"?

If you take 2% per month as a self discharge number and 100 AH as the smallest thing you would run, you get 2AH per month. For a 30 day month that gets you to 2.8 ma. If you have more than 100 AH, then the total self discharge will be greater. Simply put, the BMV is in the "does not matter" range. The bigger stuff (even the MPPT it's self) is outside that range.

One would *guess* that the batteries have an internal drain from their BMS. I suppose one could take an axe to a $1,000 battery to see what's inside . Without doing that or info from the manufacturer, it's only a guess as to what sort of drain the device has. Indeed, with the right electronics, it could be *very* low.

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 07:21 PM   #56
Rivet Master
 
daleyocum's Avatar
 
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 985
I got my Venus GX installed and I've learned a lot about Victron power systems. Now everything works like it should. The new Distributed Voltage and Current Control (DVCC) feature figures out, based on what all the other components are telling it, how to mix the generator power, battery power and solar power to minimize battery and generator drain.

This is, strangely, a new feature of the Venus and CCGX controllers so some installers aren't familiar with it. Older systems (prior to Feb 14th, 2018) won't do it off the shelf. If you are having a Victron system installed professionally make sure they know you want this feature and that they update everything and enable it. It's not on by default and many brand new components are still on old firmware.

To summarize this thread, standard solar controllers are expecting to work based on battery voltage to know when to charge. That works great with AGM or flooded batteries but not with Lithium. Lithium has a very stable discharge curve and won't drop in voltage until they are almost kaput. SOMETHING needs to be looking at the State of Charge (SOC.) Otherwise they are just guessing. In Victron's world, that something is the Color Control GX (CCGX) or it's display-less sibling the Venus GX central controllers. The later sells for a street price of $300 so it's not that much in the scheme of things. These aren't luxuries in my opinion (if you are going to the expense of a complete solar/lithium/inverter system) and they aren't just for displaying pretty pictures. They are the conductor of the whole deal.

Both of these controllers need connections to the solar controller, the Hybrid Inverter, and the Battery Monitor. If you chose the CCGX display version be ready to run a LOT of wires to it. The Venus can just mount down with the rest of the electronics so it's easier to install typically.

I bought all this stuff new over the last few months yet I had to update the firmware in the Venus and Multiplus Hybrid Inverter to the latest version to get DVCC to work. A nerdy process. The Venus/CCGX needs to be at 2.12 or later, the Multiplus needs to be at 422 or later. Solar VE Direct needs to be a 1.29 or later.

To answer the question above, the Venus draws about 180ma (by my multimeter) and is typically on all the time. I suppose you could wire it so you could turn it off at night but I'm not bothering. I'll just kill the power to everything at the main disconnect while in storage but otherwise let it do it's thing.

Glad to finally be done with this project and go camping since that was the whole point!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0132.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	370.8 KB
ID:	313954   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0117.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	282.1 KB
ID:	313955  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0112.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	368.1 KB
ID:	313956  
daleyocum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 07:35 PM   #57
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9,121
Hi

The gotcha with shutting these gizmos down is that they probably will not do it very elegantly if you just cut power. Oddly enough, most that I've seen ( I don't have a Venus ) also lack a "power down" command ( short of SSH into the device). If it's tracking this and that, you probably *do* want things saved as the power goes away .....

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 07:41 PM   #58
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,700
Images: 1
MPPT Solar and Lithium Question

Nice job and as you found out having the latest firmware and enabling DVCC is the key.

For what it is worth when I store my unit I physically disconnect the batteries with my blue sea switch from all sources so there is no drain on them.

When they’re on the background draws are just that -background noise. When you’ve got good capacity and solar... 1 or 2 DC amps overhead is simply never an issue. Kill it with capacity :-)

I certainly enjoy the fact that I never have to worry about how much battery I’m using :-)
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 08:07 PM   #59
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,700
Images: 1
MPPT Solar and Lithium Question

Daleyocum - curious how you got your shunt to show up as the DC source on the Venus? I don’t see a differentiation between multiplus inverter DC load vs other DC loads in the trailer - l like the visibility you have in that you can distinguish between the two - I only see the total leaving the battery.

Were there special settings you did? It looks like your shunt is the only thing before the batteries which is how mine is setup.... so I’m wondering if perhaps I need to change a setting in the multiplus or perhaps update the shunt firmware....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0693.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	338.5 KB
ID:	313959  
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2018, 08:20 PM   #60
Half a Rivet Short
 
2017 30' Classic
Carlisle , Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9,121
Hi

If you are going "pure Victron" with the central control, why not put in a battery protect?

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...--220-A-EN.pdf

If you take a look at the Battle Born spec sheet, it has a mighty wide range on the BMS low voltage cutoff. With all the smarts enabled, you can do a much better job with the BP-220. For storage, just rig a toggle switch in the control wire ... Switch is open = BP is open ...

Bob
uncle_bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Upgrading the solar charge controller from Atkinson to MPPT FlyFishinRVr Sprinter and B-van Forum 107 08-28-2020 07:31 PM
New MPPT Solar Controller Pahaska Sprinter and B-van Forum 1 01-07-2018 11:02 AM
New MPPT Solar Controller c21bill Sprinter and B-van Forum 4 10-09-2017 07:07 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.