Classic Motorhome Extreme Weather Mods

[Magnet18]

I'm putting this here instead of the cold weather sub-forum mostly because our floors are significantly different than the trailers.
(also there is more traffic here, and I feel the classic motorhomes draw a very skilled DIY type crowd with just a touch of insanity...)

My current life plans, always subject to change at a moments notice, have me residing in Northern Indiana until at least the end of the calendar year. Last year, there were some -20F nights... so I believe there are some modifications in order.

After that, who knows where we will go, it could be very hot, and we have a dog. Hot weather mods are in order as well.

Take a gander, and please weigh in with any ideas or experience you may have

COLD
In order of most to least extreme, this is the list of cold mods I am considering making, each detailed below. Odds are I don't need ALL of them... doing 1, 2, 4, and 6 would get a bit redundant

1. Hydronic heating (hot water to heat floors)
2. Wood burning stove
3. Composting Toilet
4. Electric heated floors
5. Electric heaters on all susceptible pipes
6. New Furnace (or repair old)
7. Insulate Floors

------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Hydronic Heat
Using hot water piped through PEX under the floor is becoming common, as on-demand water heaters come down in price and PEX is acknowledged as the best plumbing system ever.
There are DIY options for homes, but for an RV, space is at a premium.
This is the system that has piqued my interest. The advantage of it is that it has a separated system for the floors that circulates antifreeze instead of water, no freezing, plus it's a water heater upgrade.
http://www.aquahot.com/products/RV/250P.aspx
http://www.aquahot.com/files/product...Sell_Sheet.pdf
http://www.aquahot.com/files/owners_...TE-300-000.pdf
http://www.aquahot.com/files/install...nual-REV-C.pdf

My concern would be, how much propane is this thing going to chug through to heat a floor?

Of course, energy conservation says it should be at least as efficient as the furnace, hopefully quite a bit more.

Advantages:
Could theoretically replace furnace entirely, freeing that space for other things.
No cold feet.
Even Heat (all parts of the airstream)

Disadvantages:
Have not yet seen the pricetag, but probably not cheap.

2. Wood stove
I have had my eye on the cubic mini for awhile, a good install for small spaces, others have heated their RVs with them.
https://www.amazon.com/Cubic-Cub-Min...01AVPCYAM?th=1

Advantages:
Eliminates humidity problem
Cozy AF
I really want one

Disadvantages:
Where to put it?
- Current best thought is delete the drivers side closet and put it there. Keep everything and reverse when (if) it's ever time to sell, leaving only a barely noticeable patch panel on the roof
- This requires eliminating a significant portion of my closet... How many shirts does someone really need though.
Requires cutting a big hole in the roof. Meh.

3. Composting Toilet
https://natureshead.net/
If you don't actually know what this is, do your research before assuming and posting a rant, everyone I've talked to who has done this considered it a serious upgrade, and way more civilized than a black tank.
I think this upgrade is coming anyway, cold weather or not. My black valve already leaks, might as well eliminate the black tank entirely. Solids get dumped every 100 uses or so, you do the math, can go many months. This eliminates the need to find a dump station every week, where the black tank was can be a smaller aux grey tank, increasing grey tank storage (since I assume the black tank rises up above the floor under the toilet)

Advantages:
No more sewage!!
- Grey can be dumped anywhere in a rural area if you are careful what goes down it. Think back country tent camping. Digging a gravel pit for grey would also be very easy.
I need a new toilet anyway.

Disadvantages:
I assume I have to do a fair bit of construction to install, removing the old black tank.

4. Electric heated floors
I have my eye on this brand, because it is 12/24V (Can be used boondocking in conjunction with Solar)

http://www.warmfloor.com/floor-heati...tions/step-rv/

Also, 120V wires under the floor worry me

Advantages:
Solar compatible without an inverter

Disadvantages:
This company is requiring me to get a quote instead of just telling me how much the stuff costs

I am also considering traditional 120V heated floor, haven't decided yet.

5. Electric Heaters
This one is obvious, keep the grey dump valve, shower trap, etc. from freezing.

6. Replace or repair Furnace
Another obvious one. The current one has an issue with carbon buildup.

If not made unnecessary by other mods

7. Insulate floors
An obvious necessity.
With something fireproof, preferably. Enclose things as good as possible as well.



HOT

This is my plan for getting to a point where I'm comfortable leaving the dog on a hot day
1. 2AC units on separate breakers (Done )
2. Remote temperature monitoring and an automatic alert blasted out to both mine and wifes phone and email if either the power is lost or the temperature gets above 75
3. If both breakers lose power, a reliable backup generator wired to automatically kick in
4. If all those fail, there is an open window and 2 fantastic fans to keep it from getting out of hand

I also plan to install solar (can act as shade for the top of the airstream, and if taken to the extreme, run the AC as well)

This leads to the following list of mods
1. Install remote temp sensing system
2. Replace generator (does a dual Gas/LP one exist, for extra redundancy?)
3. Install generator auto start backup system
4. Install second fantastic fan
5. Install zip-dee awnings on remaining windows
6. Paint roof white

These all seem pretty straightforward and easy to me, not so worried about this section.

[bobmiller1]

You think to much.....like me, Regards, Bob

[Magnet18]

That's why I gotta write it down like this, keeps the head from exploding, lol

[bobmiller1]

One of my plans when I have the engine/front end out this winter is to insulate the floor underneath the drivers and passengers seats. The 2” square tubing gives a perfect spot for the 2” foam insulation. Not only will it help keep more engine heat down but also virtually eliminate all engine noise as well. The plan is to cover the foam insulation with heavy aluminum. I would use the .040 but with rocks flying off the front tires it would probably get dinged up fast. Regards, Bob

[mehes]

Forget about the low voltage floor heat unless you have a 10,000 AH battery bank. The 120V option when on shore power is nice for comfort but won't really heat the coach in cold weather. You would still need a furnace or other source of heat. Insulation is really important for both hot and cold weather.

[tevake]

Minus 20 degrees, yikes! You will need all of that and some more.

The windows are a big issue in cold weather, think breezy. I've used inexpensive window seal kits with good effect. Thin film plastic sheets and double sided tape for each window.

Nice fuzzy wool lined house slippers.

Skirting for around the underside of the rig. I just skirted the rear section where the tanks and exposed plumbing are critical. I used rigid foam insulation, aluminum tape, and tent pegs in the ground to secure the bottoms.

This combo along with a couple of electric space kept it comfy down into the teens, but that's as cold as it got. -20 Yikes.

I know these solutions are not as sexy as your list, but very doable at reasonable cost and effort.


Cheers Richard

[tevake]

It was possible to slide a piece of the foam thru the back of the wheel wells to close the space around the tanks and drain pipes and valves, which tend to freeze first. Id keep a drop light in there for the coldest times.

Having heat inside makes the snow on the windows melt making great icecicles below them.
Northern Az winters are pretty whimpy next to those you are planning for, but for a guy from Hawaii they were plenty wintery.

Cheers Richard

[21Airstream]

I’ve spent the winter in a couple of different SOB’s (both Holiday Ramblers) with full hookups in campgrounds. During the Winter you really go through the propane. There are propane suppliers that will rent large tanks that stand next to your trailer and they refill them regularly (no hassle at all dealing with them). I wrapped my fresh water hose with heat tape and it helps if you put some kind of skirting along the bottom of the trailer (with a light bulb or two underneath). Small space heaters help, with the lower cupboard doors open at night (if the campground will allow you to use them). You really have to stay on top of things though.

Things might have changed some but that’s what it was like for me 20-30 years ago.

[Magnet18]

Ok, I did some math to see if staying warm on a -20F night (my absolute worst case) is even possible, and find out what amount of power we are talking about.
Turns out, without insulating the floor, very difficult. Insulated floor, totally doable.

I assumed R2 for the walls and windows (after sealing up for drafts, reflectex, etc.) And R1 for the factory plywood floor.

Skirting is a good thing to do, but a relatively small impact compared to insulating the floor up to R6 (on paper anyway in reality it probably really helps catch wasted heat and keep the tanks warm)

See the attached spreadsheet I whipped up, boxes that have bold borders are numbers you can play with.

With the 50A 220V upgrade, it's theoretically possible to do it all on electric, but i don't want to push the wiring that hard. It looks like the aqua-hot is capable of being a primary heat source, as is the Kimberly wood stove. The grizzly is a good aux heat source, and primary only down to 0F. The cub is just cute.

Propane furnaces work too, but they are terribly inefficient, and the heat is uncomfortable and uneven

Electric heated floor is a welcome comfort, but not a primary heat source

In reality, it will be best to probably make at least 2 heat upgrades, and fix my furnace (obviously)


Given that wood is basically free here, a wood stove looks like a good investment to overwinter in the Midwest. Plus chopping wood in the snow = infinite manliness.

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by bobmiller1

One of my plans when I have the engine/front end out this winter is to insulate the floor underneath the drivers and passengers seats. The 2” square tubing gives a perfect spot for the 2” foam insulation. Not only will it help keep more engine heat down but also virtually eliminate all engine noise as well. The plan is to cover the foam insulation with heavy aluminum. I would use the .040 but with rocks flying off the front tires it would probably get dinged up fast. Regards, Bob

Hope it's fire proof!
Sounds like a good application for diamond plate

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by mehes

Forget about the low voltage floor heat unless you have a 10,000 AH battery bank. The 120V option when on shore power is nice for comfort but won't really heat the coach in cold weather. You would still need a furnace or other source of heat. Insulation is really important for both hot and cold weather.

Spot on, thanks!

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by tevake

It was possible to slide a piece of the foam thru the back of the wheel wells to close the space around the tanks and drain pipes and valves, which tend to freeze first. Id keep a drop light in there for the coldest times.

Having heat inside makes the snow on the windows melt making great icecicles below them.
Northern Az winters are pretty whimpy next to those you are planning for, but for a guy from Hawaii they were plenty wintery.

Cheers Richard

Good looking skirting set up!
I love pictures of these things in the snow

Yes, I plan to insulate the bottom, and aluminum over the insulation to make a sort of belly pan to help keep the heat in, complete with races and boxes for any plumbing.

I think someone else on here has plumbing races and a box around the tanks... Vycan maybe?

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by 21Airstream

I’ve spent the winter in a couple of different SOB’s (both Holiday Ramblers) with full hookups in campgrounds. During the Winter you really go through the propane. There are propane suppliers that will rent large tanks that stand next to your trailer and they refill them regularly (no hassle at all dealing with them). I wrapped my fresh water hose with heat tape and it helps if you put some kind of skirting along the bottom of the trailer (with a light bulb or two underneath). Small space heaters help, with the lower cupboard doors open at night (if the campground will allow you to use them). You really have to stay on top of things though.

Things might have changed some but that’s what it was like for me 20-30 years ago.

How large were those tanks?
I have a 125lb (i think), but when it runs dry I figured I'd end up ferrying 60lb tanks back and forth to keep it running.

We're (probably) going to be on private land, which means cheap electric and no rules, but propane delivery is unlikely

[OttawaValleyGuy]

Originally Posted by Magnet18

I'm putting this here instead of the cold weather sub-forum mostly because our floors are significantly different than the trailers.
(also there is more traffic here, and I feel the classic motorhomes draw a very skilled DIY type crowd with just a touch of insanity...)

My current life plans, always subject to change at a moments notice, have me residing in Northern Indiana until at least the end of the calendar year. Last year, there were some -20F nights... so I believe there are some modifications in order.

After that, who knows where we will go, it could be very hot, and we have a dog. Hot weather mods are in order as well.

Take a gander, and please weigh in with any ideas or experience you may have

COLD
In order of most to least extreme, this is the list of cold mods I am considering making, each detailed below. Odds are I don't need ALL of them... doing 1, 2, 4, and 6 would get a bit redundant

1. Hydronic heating (hot water to heat floors)
2. Wood burning stove
3. Composting Toilet
4. Electric heated floors
5. Electric heaters on all susceptible pipes
6. New Furnace (or repair old)
7. Insulate Floors

------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Hydronic Heat
Using hot water piped through PEX under the floor is becoming common, as on-demand water heaters come down in price and PEX is acknowledged as the best plumbing system ever.
There are DIY options for homes, but for an RV, space is at a premium.
This is the system that has piqued my interest. The advantage of it is that it has a separated system for the floors that circulates antifreeze instead of water, no freezing, plus it's a water heater upgrade.
http://www.aquahot.com/products/RV/250P.aspx
http://www.aquahot.com/files/product...Sell_Sheet.pdf
http://www.aquahot.com/files/owners_...TE-300-000.pdf
http://www.aquahot.com/files/install...nual-REV-C.pdf

My concern would be, how much propane is this thing going to chug through to heat a floor?

Of course, energy conservation says it should be at least as efficient as the furnace, hopefully quite a bit more.

Advantages:
Could theoretically replace furnace entirely, freeing that space for other things.
No cold feet.
Even Heat (all parts of the airstream)

Disadvantages:
Have not yet seen the pricetag, but probably not cheap.

2. Wood stove
I have had my eye on the cubic mini for awhile, a good install for small spaces, others have heated their RVs with them.
https://www.amazon.com/Cubic-Cub-Min...01AVPCYAM?th=1

Advantages:
Eliminates humidity problem
Cozy AF
I really want one

Disadvantages:
Where to put it?
- Current best thought is delete the drivers side closet and put it there. Keep everything and reverse when (if) it's ever time to sell, leaving only a barely noticeable patch panel on the roof
- This requires eliminating a significant portion of my closet... How many shirts does someone really need though.
Requires cutting a big hole in the roof. Meh.

3. Composting Toilet
https://natureshead.net/
If you don't actually know what this is, do your research before assuming and posting a rant, everyone I've talked to who has done this considered it a serious upgrade, and way more civilized than a black tank.
I think this upgrade is coming anyway, cold weather or not. My black valve already leaks, might as well eliminate the black tank entirely. Solids get dumped every 100 uses or so, you do the math, can go many months. This eliminates the need to find a dump station every week, where the black tank was can be a smaller aux grey tank, increasing grey tank storage (since I assume the black tank rises up above the floor under the toilet)

Advantages:
No more sewage!!
- Grey can be dumped anywhere in a rural area if you are careful what goes down it. Think back country tent camping. Digging a gravel pit for grey would also be very easy.
I need a new toilet anyway.

Disadvantages:
I assume I have to do a fair bit of construction to install, removing the old black tank.

4. Electric heated floors
I have my eye on this brand, because it is 12/24V (Can be used boondocking in conjunction with Solar)

http://www.warmfloor.com/floor-heati...tions/step-rv/

Also, 120V wires under the floor worry me

Advantages:
Solar compatible without an inverter

Disadvantages:
This company is requiring me to get a quote instead of just telling me how much the stuff costs

I am also considering traditional 120V heated floor, haven't decided yet.

5. Electric Heaters
This one is obvious, keep the grey dump valve, shower trap, etc. from freezing.

6. Replace or repair Furnace
Another obvious one. The current one has an issue with carbon buildup.

If not made unnecessary by other mods

7. Insulate floors
An obvious necessity.
With something fireproof, preferably. Enclose things as good as possible as well.



HOT

This is my plan for getting to a point where I'm comfortable leaving the dog on a hot day
1. 2AC units on separate breakers (Done )
2. Remote temperature monitoring and an automatic alert blasted out to both mine and wifes phone and email if either the power is lost or the temperature gets above 75
3. If both breakers lose power, a reliable backup generator wired to automatically kick in
4. If all those fail, there is an open window and 2 fantastic fans to keep it from getting out of hand

I also plan to install solar (can act as shade for the top of the airstream, and if taken to the extreme, run the AC as well)

This leads to the following list of mods
1. Install remote temp sensing system
2. Replace generator (does a dual Gas/LP one exist, for extra redundancy?)
3. Install generator auto start backup system
4. Install second fantastic fan
5. Install zip-dee awnings on remaining windows
6. Paint roof white

These all seem pretty straightforward and easy to me, not so worried about this section.

To spend that kinda money on a 1983 Airstream only shows that you are a dreamer OR you have way too much money and are simply looking to blow it away

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by OttawaValleyGuy

To spend that kinda money on a 1983 Airstream only shows that you are a dreamer OR you have way too much money and are simply looking to blow it away

Not sure what you mean by dreamer, but a lot of people are willing to pay 10k just to have their airstreams polished

The engine in this was 12k, funded by a previous owner fortunately

A couple thousand for some functional winter heat doesn't seem that extreme IMO, just another airstream thing, I see way more expensive things going on here every day

[Keyair]

Originally Posted by OttawaValleyGuy

To spend that kinda money on a 1983 Airstream only shows that you are a dreamer OR you have way too much money and are simply looking to blow it away

Sounds like most of us here, I will take that as a complement!

[mayco]

We do a great deal of winter camping every year in pretty cold environs. Illinois to Colorado, dec. Jan. Etc.... we've been in sustained temps of 0degrees for days at a time and usually do more than a month on the road. Ive done pretty minor mods to the rig and we manage to keep warm in those temps. Early in your original thread is a picture of us in Lyons Co in early January.
I appreciate your energy and enthusiasm for making improvements to your 310 to make it more weather resistant and comfy in extreme temps but it is doable with fewer mods and less money. Not saying that your ideas aren't great, they are. I would love to have heated floors for instance. But like I said, we are able to do it without sacrificing comfort with much fewer mods and $$$ spent. We do it every year.

A few things we've done to make it work;
Added a second shore power cord to increase the use of electric heat. One heater dedicated to the water pump area and blowing under the rear queen down the outside wall that houses most of the bath and kitchen plumbing.

Put shutoff valves on the pipes leading to the shower. Right next to the water pump. We use park facilities for showers. So no heat needed on the passenger side exterior wall.

Reflectix on all windows except the center rear, the double window next to the door, and of course the front.

Always start empty gray n black tanks with 1.5 ga of rv antifreeze.

Rigid insulation on interior of refrigerator hatch door with small hole in it. 100 watt light bulb inside behind the fridge. These fridges don't cool properly in real cold temps.

Warm slippers ...........

Those are a few things but as you can see, pretty minor mods. The additional shore power cord is priceless, both winter and summer to run rear air. I guess my point is that it can be done without breaking the bank. By no means though am I discouraging your ideas, go for it!

We absolutely love winter camping, there is nothing like having and entire campground to yourselves. It's sooooooooo cooooool!

[bobmiller1]

I have the 120 volt floor heat, front and rear, you can heat the motor home with just that but because I have to run around in the shower to get wet I also have front and rear furnace 42,000 BTU front, 30,000 BTU rear plus the 2 heat pumps on the roof and he’ll if all that doesn’t work an auxiliary heater that runs off the engine in the rear ! Regards, Bob

[Magnet18]

Thanks for chiming in you two!
I learned something from both of those posts.

Let me be clear, I by no means want to do ALL of those cold weather mods!! Like I said, that would get a bit redundant, I could easily rack up 150,000 BTU, which would be just a tiny bit excessive in 250 sqft

I also really, really, really hate being cold in the winter, especially the feet.

This thread is just to list all options and do some planning, and hopefully be a resource to others .

I think my current most probable path is
-wood stove
-120v electric heated floor

But I will be pricing out the aqua-hot out of curiosity, will post my findings here eventually

Should make me less dependent on propane, eliminating all propane dependency would be awesome since I'll be stationary. My second power cord, like Maycos, will help with that a lot. A dedicated 30A service for heat will go a long way.

The wood stove won't be cheap, but I plan to make it a reversible install with minimal impact once I take it out, if I ever sell this thing. Keep the closet wall and door, rivet back in, shouldn't be too bad. Both the kimberly and the cubic mini have good reviews and a history of RV installs, and could be carried forth into future RVs or a small house

[mayco]

Ive had some pretty serious fantasies of installing a wood stove. There some incredible models out now that would fit and the thought of the radiant heat is enticing. Ive had homes that I heated with wood and there is nothing like it for warmth. I haven't been able to pull the trigger though. Space considerations, its messy no getting around it, another hole in the roof, gotta carry wood or buy it (though they don't need much). But the thought of it is awfully attractive. Ive seen some very cool models out now days.