Beware the AMMONIA Bomb!

[tevake]

I did a short drive in my 345 Moho yesterday to get to a dump station.
As I was getting settled back into my spot at our new place here in the fla Panhandle I did notice some smell of ammonia in the head and galley areas.
Thinking it was fumes from the now emptied tank, I opened the windows and left the coach for a while.
When coming back in the evening the smell seemed less. And to be diminishing.

So I went to bed and slept thru the night, only to find that the galley area was full of the smell this morning.

Luckily I had closed the door accross the hall which seemed to contain most of the gas to the galley area. Tho I did notice the smell as soon as I stood up in the bedroom too.

My brother had this happen to his refrigerator in his much newer AS trailer also
Apparently the refrigerant used in our rigs has a strong smell of ammonia.
I'm not sure how bad for you this could be, but My feeling is that it's not good for you to be breathing this stuff, maybe even very bad to be breathing.

Also luckily this gas seems lighter than air, so concentrated near the ceiling.
Once I started moving around in the coach it stirred the gas around and it reached the smoke/ gas detector near the door and set it off.

So I'm now sitting outside hungry for breakfast and thinking how fortunate I am not to have been gassed in my sleep.

BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO SMELL AMMONIA GAS IN YOUR RIG!

And now the search for a repair for or replacement refrigerator.
Any one done a refrigerator replacement in our old coaches.
I'm wanting to have the three way type. Is there a modern unit that fits the space well? Oh and hopefully costs less than $2 grand.

Cheers Richard

[mayco]

I got gassed with chlorine, takes your breath right away. Huge filtration system in a small building and a fitting on the chlorine tank had cracked. Scary stuff Richard, glad you didn't do the deeeeeep sleeeep!!!!

Adios my friend, be safe

Mike

[Waipio Rim]

Here is a really well documented thread from a '92 trailer owner who survived the ammonia bomb and fixed his refrigerator:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f425...air-23857.html

[tevake]

Thanks guys for the replys, and that great link.

Wow what a well documented job John HD did for all of us that follow his trail.
That is one of the really good things about this place.

So after reading thru the linked thread I come away thinking that this is a doable job. Not exactly " I can do that ". I'll have to spend some more time looking thru it.

When I got back to the rig late yesterday with a small undercounter refidgerator to live out of for the mean time. The fumes had cleared out of the coach and life aboard is returning to normal.

Cheers Richard

[Philip Jones]

Timely thread. Three people recently died in Canada because of ammonia.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...aths-1.4360521

Be careful!

[EasyStreamer]

One ammonia bomb was enough for me! Mine went out in my 345 earlier this year, filling the living area with noxious fumes so I decided to replace it with a Vitrifrigo compressor driven refrigerator. I never was truly comfortable with the thought of having an unattended fire in my RV.

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by Philip Jones

Timely thread. Three people recently died in Canada because of ammonia.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...aths-1.4360521

Be careful!

Also one dead in Kingston, Ontario, last week, at an arena.

[Wingeezer]

The Servel type fridges in most (not all) RV's do ideed use ammonia, but while not meaning to downplay the situation, I think that inprespective .......

(a) It has a pretty strong smell and you would normally know of its presence before being into much danger if it leaked. It is probably not that uncommon to experience a leak in older units due to rust of the coils - and even in newer fridges if defective.

(b) the way the fridges are built, most of any leaked ammonia would I think be on the outside of the trailer where the vented access panel is located - or maybe within the fridge itself where it is somewhat contained until the fridge door is opened.

I wouldn't get overly concerned about the possibilities. These fridges have been in use for many many years, and I don't recall reading of many - if any serious health issues that have arisen.

The newspaper articles seem to relate to people working on huge cooling installations at ice rinks - may not be really that comparable.

Just my own thoughts of course, and more than happy to be corrected by anyone with more directly related experience. I certainly wouldn't want to down play anything that could represent a serious health hazard!

[GM Airstream]

Originally Posted by tevake

And now the search for a repair for or replacement refrigerator.
Any one done a refrigerator replacement in our old coaches.
I'm wanting to have the three way type. Is there a modern unit that fits the space well? Oh and hopefully costs less than $2 grand.

Cheers Richard

Just had my 85 dometic start not working as good.. after we bought the trailer and put it back in op... the thing sat for about 7 years... not good...

Anyway.. looked at new... and was told that the new dometic's are having problems with the tubing cracking and leaking... seems that they went to thin'er tubing for the cooling unit... and their have been LOTS of fires when they were on propane... burning down the coach... soooo with that in mind
I started to do some checking.. and found that the older units.. rusted through the years... or else were damaged ... while sitting off level in the parking lot while the owners were in eating dinner... kinda thing... and burned up the cap tube inside due to overheating...

What we came up with is several companies that take old units.. and overhaul 'em... as aftermarket units... that are direct replacements for the older refrig's.. cooling units... Their is one made in canada.. that makes 'em new... and when installed... the unit is as good as new.. the only thing that you have old is the cabn't and interior stuff...

So that was the way we went... at about 1/3 the cost... but, to find someone that will remove and replace the old cooling unit on the back... is few... but some of the people like PINE or RVcool etc..... will do the work if you send them the box... and pay the shipping both ways... either that or drop by their place...

You can see some of them on utube...

It is the better way to go... as the new units are not without their problem...

G.M>

[GM Airstream]

The conversion to the compressor type of refrigs... is not without their problems either... we did some research on them.. as a option... and found that some who had them actually said it was not the answer... even though they seemed to work better in hot weather.....and didn't have to be level... their were other issues.. such as noise and elect power.... but I am sure that the compressor kind will be the way to go in the future...once they get 'em to where they will live on the road...

[blkmagikca]

Last March I was at the Escapade in Tucson AZ I visited the booth of Mao and Paul Unmack who developed the ARP control module for RV refrigerators. This is a control module that prevents overheating of the cooling unit that causes RV refrigerator failures. Depending on what and how your refer is installed, there are different options, including fans to move the airflow through the condenser coil. It is well worth reading the info on the website - I did and I had them install a unit in my AS.

https://www.arprv.com/

[EasyStreamer]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

The conversion to the compressor type of refrigs... is not without their problems either... we did some research on them.. as a option... and found that some who had them actually said it was not the answer... even though they seemed to work better in hot weather.....and didn't have to be level... their were other issues.. such as noise and elect power.... but I am sure that the compressor kind will be the way to go in the future...once they get 'em to where they will live on the road...

I am sure that the compressor kind will be the way to go in the future...once they get 'em to where they will live on the road... Care to elaborate on this? Airstream already installs compressor refrigerators in it's Interstate & Atlas touring coaches. I don't think they would do this if there were serious issues with them 'living on the road'

The noise produced by a compressor fridge is very similar to a running refrigerator in you home. Sure you are living in closer quarters in your RV but I have not had any issue living with the occasional low hum of the compressor emanating from my galley. Added weight is also a concern but it is minimal. Per the specs, I have added less than 15 pounds over the fridge I replaced. This will be significant to some but I'm still well under my weight limit.

As for electrical... This could pose a problem for some but as owners of Airstream motorhomes, our units are already wired to run the fridge on 12 volt or AC, when underway the alternator provides plenty of 12 volt power to operate the fridge. Not t mention, I often find myself running the genset in an effort to keep the living quarters cool when underway so in that case the genny provides AC power to the fridge.

Boondocking is where power consumption truly becomes as issue. In that case you will want to look into upgrading your house batteries & adding solar but you're already going to be doing this if you plan on doing a lot of boon docking... Right? & the power requirements of a 12 volt compressor fridge are very modest. After all, most were designed for the marine industry where people often largely depend on solar and where keeping food fresh can quickly become a matter of life & death

That is where we get to the real issue (in my opinion) increased cost. I purchased my Vitrifrigo stainless steel marine fridge from a connection in the boat building industry. He ordered it & sold it to me for 10% over his cost & I still spent several hundred more than I would have for a basic replacement absorption fridge. Read on to learn why I was fine with paying the increased fee.

Replacing the absorption cooling unit was never a consideration for me as I had not been pleased with the construction of the door or door latches on my Dometic fridge. The latches had failed 3 times in 7 years of ownership. Twice my door swung open while underway, spilling food out & each time the door hit the wall it's plastic components would flex. This leads me to the main reason I went with a marine fridge. Solid construction. The latches are stainless steel, no plastic to be found in their construction, the door? Also solid stainless with metal hinges attached to a metal frame. This is a refrigerator I would consider replacing the cooling unit on, not the plastic box that resided in my Airstream before.

Anyhow, I'm not saying a compressor fridge is the answer for everyone, & I don't believe the original poster is even considering one I'm just not convinced the arguments you were given by others against them were all that valid. Regardless, I'm glad we have options... and can all hopefully make the choice that is right for us See you down the road

[tevake]

I did install a Norcold 12 volt compressor unit with attached and gas filled cooling plates into the built in box on my cruising boat. This did work out very well, but the boat was allways parked in full sun, where the solar panels could easily power them. Also that setup did not freeze Ice, which has become highly desired.

The thought of mounting that sort of unit into the current box did occure to me.
Also just replacing the cooling unit in this box is a possibility I'm thinking about.

My brother replaced his with a new unit from Dometic. First one came with the doors opening the wrong way. The next one did not fit the space and required retriming the cabinetry. So even that did not have the ease of a clean direct replacement.

I appreciate all of the input as I sort the choices going forward, keep it coming.

Cheers Richard

[Rocinante]

We'd absolutely love to switch from the Demonic ammonia absorption fridge to a danfoss-compressor-based fridge such as Vitrifrigo or Norcold. However, as others have noted, those fridges require a heftier battery bank and will benefit from solar input to ensure they don't run dry. Ideally, we'll put in LiFePO4 batteries, add more solar, and then swap out that Demonic fridge. All in good time and a lot of money. <sigh>

[KJRitchie]

We had a Vitrifrigo planned to be installed this week but the fridge was so badly damaged in shipment to the shop that was to do the installation we decided to schedule for another time. We were planning to use it with 220ah Lifeline 6v and 400w of roof solar. Our Domestic works well enough plus we have a Domestic CFX-28 portable AC/DC fridge.

Kelvin

[PeterH-350LE]

Richard,
If you decide to go with a dometic replacement, here is the .pdf for finding the right replacement for your model. Width is typically not an issues, nor is the depth, but you may end up with having to settle with a 2" shorter unit.

http://dometic3frontend.qbank.se/epi...2fc4ea2393.pdf

[GM Airstream]

As for electrical... This could pose a problem for some but as owners of Airstream motorhomes, our units are already wired to run the fridge on 12 volt or AC, when underway the alternator provides plenty of 12 volt power to operate the fridge. Not t mention, I often find myself running the genset in an effort to keep the living quarters cool when underway so in that case the genny provides AC power to the fridge.

Boondocking is where power consumption truly becomes as issue. In that case you will want to look into upgrading your house batteries & adding solar but you're already going to be doing this if you plan on doing a lot of boon docking... Right? & the power requirements of a 12 volt compressor fridge are very modest. After all, most were designed for the marine industry where people often largely depend on solar and where keeping food fresh can quickly become a matter of life & death

That is where we get to the real issue (in my opinion) increased cost. I purchased my Vitrifrigo stainless steel marine fridge from a connection in the boat building industry. He ordered it & sold it to me for 10% over his cost & I still spent several hundred more than I would have for a basic replacement absorption fridge. Read on to learn why I was fine with paying the increased fee.


Indeed... lets see.. to go from gas to elect... you add more batteries...wt? ... you add solar cells...wt? Cost? and you have to put up with the humming... rattling.. and broken tubing lines... (yes they do break when allowed to flex down the road...) and you add a gen set ....wt? COST? Now while they may be good for a motorhome... were talking trailers here ... I think...?
So you already have a good working refrig... quiet.. effecent.. and will run a month on 5 gal of propane at pennies a hour... but, to change... it cost how much... and time in reworking the existing ... nope for my money I did the cooling unit change out when the PO destroyed it.. by letting it sit for years.. and then runn'n it off level...


My brother replaced his with a new unit from Dometic. First one came with the doors opening the wrong way. The next one did not fit the space and required retriming the cabinetry. So even that did not have the ease of a clean direct replacement.

Indeed... you have to basically re-do the hole where the old one came out of... then again... I changed the cooling unit on mine with one from RV Pine... ($450) ... I thought I was going to have problems.. but it was a easy thing to do... and the new ref cooling unit looks to be upgraded... while my box still fits the org hole... added some fiberglass insulation where AS forgot to put it in... but hey that is why you jump in and do your thing...

When I put the overhauled one in service... the freezer got colder -5 deg... and the box ....36 deg...all within 8 hours from startup... than the original one did... We found that their were lots of manufacturing problem in the orginal dometic... i.e the box fin'ed area was spaced away from the cooling tubes... by injected foam from the factory... go figure... so now it works 200% better... and more effecent. I am glad that their are aftermarket people... to help make it right...

As to using 12 volts to power the refrig down the road... atttt... wrong answer... the 12 volts takes a whopping amount of current.. (most new ones don't even have it anymore.. just gas and 120v...)
What I have found works... is get 'er cold and then travel... you don't need to power anything up.. it will keep things in it cold... so long as you don't go opening up the box door often... then when you get to your night spot... fire 'er up and cool down again... I usually will freeze the gallon water judgs... and they will flywheel keeping things cold...
but.... I also have a gen set in the back of the TV.. along with the oversized 12 volt compressor cooler... to keep the stores frozen... but it shuts down when not run'n the engine... It is the backup as well as more room for food and party time... etc...

As to the doors on the dometics.. you can put them on either way... they are made to do that... Check the instructions manual... go figure...

as to the runn'n of the motorhome gen set... ahhhh most airstream trailers don't have that option... so again How much for the gen set ? Wt? Noise... I have one in the TV but, we hardly ever use it.. as the bats are recharged by the TV when we hit the road... 3-4 hours is more than enough to bring 'em back up...

So the old absorb type refriges are still the better idea.... and their is a group in phoenix that sells a protection device to keep you from brun'n out the cooling unit if off level or otherwise... I saw it on the RV group website www.escapees.com

Nope... for the cost, wt and additions... even if you get one at cost... you still have more things to go wrong... stats... more thing.. failure and cost go up... So for the time being.. the best I and others have fount is the good old gas/elect refrig... which is coming up on over 100 years of usage...since they started making 'em...

And we found that one place has had theirs operating for over 50 years... in the shop.. working on Nat Gas... so it must have some things going right for it...

[blkmagikca]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

[I]

So the old absorb type refriges are still the better idea.... and their is a group in phoenix that sells a protection device to keep you from brun'n out the cooling unit if off level or otherwise... I saw it on the RV group website www.escapees.com

I bought that protection device when I was at at the Escapade in Tucson AZ last March. Here is their URL

https://www.arprv.com/

The website provides a cornucopia of information on RV refrigeration.

[EasyStreamer]

[QUOTE=GM Airstream;2024768][I]
"Indeed... lets see.. to go from gas to elect... you add more batteries...wt? ... you add solar cells...wt? Cost? "

I was saying you would need to add more batteries & solar cells & possibly a generator if you plan to spend a lot of time living off grid. This is a given... for anyone planning to go off grid for extended periods. Your choice of refrigerator will make little difference in the equation when determining how much solar & batteries you will need. A very basic solar panel that clips directly to your house battery will run the fridge day & night if that were your only power draw. That isn't the case for any modern boon dockers I've met. Most will be powering the convertor, more likely a large inverter, lights, fans. They'll want power to charge their phones & other electronic devices, they may even want to watch TV? These are the current draws that will require you to upgrade your batteries & add solar. When I upgraded to my compressor refrigerator I simply attached the preexisting 12 volt wires supplied by Airstream to power the original 3 way fridge, plugged into the 120 volt outlet & capped off the gas line. This was the extent of my 'conversion to a compressor fridge'. No hidden costs, no extra weight beyond the 15 pound heavier refrigerator (& I imagine the stainless construction accounts for most of that extra weight.)


"and you have to put up with the humming"...

Ever been bothered by your house fridge and it's incessant humming? I doubt it... but I concede this could be a problem for someone. If it is, don't buy a new Airstream Interstate as they come with compressor driven refrigerators installed from the factory.

"rattling.. and broken tubing lines... (yes they do break when allowed to flex down the road...)"


You've provided no evidence of this but okay? Time will tell I guess. My lines are made of copper though, same material as the gas line that supplied the old refrigerator with it's propane. Maybe it was about to crack as well?

"and you add a gen set ....wt? COST? Now while they may be good for a motorhome... were talking trailers here ... I think...? "

No, the original poster does indeed have a motor home which came from the factory with a generator. Still, you don't have to run a generator to operate a compressor fridge when under way, it runs easily off 12 volts, drawing minimal current, just like the ARB & Dometic 'Danfoss' compressor driven coolers that plug into a car's cigarette lighter. You could even shut off for several hours while under way, same as you do with your absorption fridge.

"So you already have a good working refrig... quiet.. effecent.. and will run a month on 5 gal of propane at pennies a hour... but, to change... it cost how much... and time in reworking the existing ... "

Actually, he doesn't. His broke, ammonia leaked out into the cabin.

"nope for my money I did the cooling unit change out when the PO destroyed it.. by letting it sit for years.. and then runn'n it off level... "

and that's fine Replacing the cooling unit is a viable option, it was right for you, right for many, maybe even the original poster? A compressor refrigerator is another, viable option. Some will see it as 'the answer' others will not. It's all about having options. What's right for one RVer will be wrong for the next & vice versa.
I'm glad you are happy with your decision, I knew I wouldn't be. I wasn't happy with the construction of my absorption refrigerator's cabinet, I also had to be careful about parking with the refrigerator side of the RV in direct sunlight. The freezer would begin to thaw on really hot days. The compressor refrigerator provided me with sub zero temperatures all through the months of July & August in NC. I'm both pleased with the construction & cooling performance of my Virtifrigo refrigerator, the noise is negligible (for me).

[Jeff K.]

I did my Dometic 2811 refrigerator. It was easy after reading the forums. Take pictures of ALL wiring and use an ice cube tray for the screws so you can group them. Order extra thermal sealant as you will use more than they give you. Consider upgrading the electric heating element and adding cooling fans.